The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

[Armanen]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

And what kind of real power does genocide recognition by Turkey achieve for Armenia? The only way to get Western Armenia is to take it. "Claiming it as our homeland" when it is firmly in the grasp of an enemy hasn't worked for us, nor anyone else throughout all of human history.

The Hai Tad has given the diasporans a reason to continue to live in the diaspora instead of repatriating. If anything, the abolishion of the Hai Tad is actually the revokement of a diasporan patriot's raison d'etre, which can explain why this issue has been such a sensitive one for many. It is not connected to geopolitics at all.

At the bottom line, what is it that we as Armenians really want? Influence? Punishment of Turkey? Land?

Can we really get it by further alienating ourselves in the geopolitical arena? Do we honestly think we can participate in the economic changes to come in the South Caucasus that can benefit our country in the longrun if we give the finger to Russia for not giving us a free lunch when it comes to dealing with our neighbours?

These are my questions to you guys.

Well said enker. And did you notice how Eddo said the Diaspora would be even more irrelevent to Armenia. I have to ask, why is the Diaspora irrelevent to Armenia? I do not think it is, but if those living comfortable and safe lives in the u.s. or europe want to dictate how Armenia should act yet not feel any of the consequencies, well then they shouldn't be suprised at their irrelevency.

The Diaspora is a great asset and should continue to help Armenia. I often hear from Diaspora Armenians that they do not like the attitude of official Yerevan which takes their money but doesn't listen to them. I think this is true to a certain extent but I also believe that the best way for this to occur is for Diaspora Armenians to repatriate and make it happen. There is strength in numbers and of course in the dedication to a righteous cause.

[Haykakan]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

And what kind of real power does genocide recognition by Turkey achieve for Armenia? The only way to get Western Armenia is to take it. "Claiming it as our homeland" when it is firmly in the grasp of an enemy hasn't worked for us, nor anyone else throughout all of human history.

The Hai Tad has given the diasporans a reason to continue to live in the diaspora instead of repatriating. If anything, the abolishion of the Hai Tad is actually the revokement of a diasporan patriot's raison d'etre, which can explain why this issue has been such a sensitive one for many. It is not connected to geopolitics at all.

At the bottom line, what is it that we as Armenians really want? Influence? Punishment of Turkey? Land?

Can we really get it by further alienating ourselves in the geopolitical arena? Do we honestly think we can participate in the economic changes to come in the South Caucasus that can benefit our country in the longrun if we give the finger to Russia for not giving us a free lunch when it comes to dealing with our neighbours?

These are my questions to you guys.

I know i don't speak for all Armenians but i can say what i want. I want Armenia to be a nation that most armenians will want to live in, raise their childeren in, and see a bright future in. In my opinion this should be our number one goal. Our history, tragedies, victories should be taught and not forgotten but dwelling in the past while living in the present is not a good idea and todays reality needs to be heeded by those making decisions conserning our nation.

[Eddo211]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

And what kind of real power does genocide recognition by Turkey achieve for Armenia?

None, in fact things might get even worse..............but this effort is causing negative internal and important external problems for Turkey to a point that it really hurts them (the solution: Protocols).
To me Turkey’s recognition of AG is meaningless and I could care less what they recognize, but I know if it ever gets forced at government level it will tear the fabric of their society apart so this good.
This fight must continue, if anything for the good of the Turkish people’s rights to freedom of expression and democracy.

The only way to get Western Armenia is to take it. "Claiming it as our homeland" when it is firmly in the grasp of an enemy hasn't worked for us, nor anyone else throughout all of human history.

We wouldn’t know what to do with Western Armenia even if they gave it to us.
As you said we must take it when we are ready, but why give Turkey the pleasure of legalizing the current boarders, what difference does it make to get a recognition from a small poor powerless country who can’t even patrol those borders effectively by itself let alone be a threat to Eastern Turkey. What are they scared of?

At the bottom line, what is it that we as Armenians really want? Influence? Punishment of Turkey? Land?

PAIN for their government......why not.

Can we really get it by further alienating ourselves in the geopolitical arena? Do we honestly think we can participate in the economic changes to come in the South Caucasus that can benefit our country in the longrun if we give the finger to Russia for not giving us a free lunch when it comes to dealing with our neighbours?

These are my questions to you guys.

Armenia should not alienate herself and work diligently to increase its power and influence with cunning, self respect, and some degree of honor…………but at the same time they must not allow Armenia to be used as a tool against AG recognition push, which really it is not up to them to sign these rights away, that is the Diaspora’s fight.

Either way it seems to be a done deal but I don’t think the protocols will stand and there will be no deal because of problems with Artsakh. I like to think this will be the deal breaker.

These are my unpopular irrelevant opinions my friend………….BTW, there is no such thing as a free lunch in this God forsaken world.

[jgk3]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

None, in fact things might get even worse..............but this effort is causing negative internal and important external problems for Turkey to a point that it really hurts them (the solution: Protocols).
To me Turkey’s recognition of AG is meaningless and I could care less what they recognize, but I know if it ever gets forced at government level it will tear the fabric of their society apart so this good.
This fight must continue, if anything for the good of the Turkish people’s rights to freedom of expression and democracy.

Of course, why should the fight stop? We don't have to give up our stance on the genocide, nor our right to make Turks and the entire world recognize it someday.

We wouldn’t know what to do with Western Armenia even if they gave it to us.
As you said we must take it when we are ready, but why give Turkey the pleasure of legalizing the current boarders, what difference does it make to get a recognition from a small poor powerless country who can’t even patrol those borders effectively by itself let alone be a threat to Eastern Turkey. What are they scared of?

You tell me, I don't know what they're afraid of concerning the border. All I know is that for trade relations to begin, you can't have one of the partners claiming the other partner's land.

PAIN for their government......why not.

I don't like their government (whatever the 'mask of the decade' it may be wearing) either. The main thing I'm worried about (which was brought up by Federate once) is the Kurds and how they might get involved in Armenian and Turkish dynamics after these protocols are signed. I am curious about how Armenia and Russia are anticipating their involvement.

Armenia should not alienate herself and work diligently to increase its power and influence with cunning, self respect, and some degree of honor…………but at the same time they must not allow Armenia to be used as a tool against AG recognition push, which really it is not up to them to sign these rights away, that is the Diaspora’s fight.

Since it's the diaspora's fight, why is it connected to the RoA in the first place? Is our nation a two-headed dragon, where one side cannot feel or sense where its feet are standing, and the other side acts like it doesn't know its own history? Let them be two dragons, not one, and let them cooperate instead of fight eachother. Our dashnaks are good at preserving our culture and our activism, but if they got hold of the Armenian government, they will be faced by the same pressure the current government is experiencing from all sides and probably wouldn't be able to change much about our predicament. So instead of fighting, they should understand eachothers' limits and create some kind of productive workspace between eachother.

Either way it seems to be a done deal but I don’t think the protocols will stand and there will be no deal because of problems with Artsakh. I like to think this will be the deal breaker.

These are my unpopular irrelevant opinions my friend………….BTW, there is no such thing as a free lunch in this God forsaken world.

Your opinions are still appreciated, this place was made for discussion afterall

[Haykakan]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

These are my unpopular irrelevant opinions my friend……
On the contrary, your opinions are the popular ones in this forum and in the diaspora. I was pretty much alone in my stance till a few more likeminded people showed up recently but reason has a funny way of converting people.

[hipeter924]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

The most sensible thing is to keep OSCE Minsk going and play the charade, because Azeri's want another war with Armenia. If the talks stop then naturally Azeri's will declare war. Best to keep them going till Armenia is in a stronger economic position to fight back against Azeri and Turkish propaganda. Hopefully though the Armenian government will take the hint, and do what North Korea does aka promise crap and then back down. After all the only reason the Turks and Azeri's have support is money.

[Armanen]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

The most sensible thing is to keep OSCE Minsk going and play the charade, because Azeri's want another war with Armenia. If the talks stop then naturally Azeri's will declare war. Best to keep them going till Armenia is in a stronger economic position to fight back against Azeri and Turkish propaganda. Hopefully though the Armenian government will take the hint, and do what North Korea does aka promise crap and then back down. After all the only reason the Turks and Azeri's have support is money.

turks have support because of their role in the western establishment, azeribaijan because of the oil factor. If azerbaijan didn't have any natural resources but still had the same government, political culture and leaders, it would be the least important of the three Caucasian states. The azeri oil is the only reason why any of the great powers take the clowns in baku seriously.

[Anoush]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Of course, why should the fight stop? We don't have to give up our stance on the genocide, nor our right to make Turks and the entire world recognize it someday.

Jgk jan, Unfortunately the Diaspora doesn't have a leg to stand on. If Armenia proper was pushed to write off Western Armenia for the price of Genocide recognition, then after all these years of Diaspora Armenians' fight to have the AG recognition pass and it didn't, what can Diaspora's Armenians do? When RA will sign the protocols in two days and they will sign off reparations by recognizing the borders of the stolen lands of turkey, what hope do we the Diasporans have now? Maybe I am depressed with reason with all these negativities going on and I don't see any light coming out of the dark; but hey you guys continue the fight till the end.

I said it once and I'll say it again, I don't see any good coming out of these protocols; but I hope and wish that I will be wrong in the end and my debaters will be right - for the sake of the continuation of our Republic and sovereignty.

Since it's the diaspora's fight, why is it connected to the RoA in the first place? Is our nation a two-headed dragon, where one side cannot feel or sense where its feet are standing, and the other side acts like it doesn't know its own history? Let them be two dragons, not one, and let them cooperate instead of fight eachother. Our dashnaks are good at preserving our culture and our activism, but if they got hold of the Armenian government, they will be faced by the same pressure the current government is experiencing from all sides and probably wouldn't be able to change much about our predicament. So instead of fighting, they should understand eachothers' limits and create some kind of productive workspace between eachother.

Perhaps you are right that any patriotic president of RA not excluding but including Tashnagtsagan leaders would have been faced by the same predicament; but I still maintain that like Vosganyan said earlier that RA's leaders could have approached the matter very politically and stand firmly on their ground when speaking with the Russians but not giving up the integrity of the AG by having the turks to further investigate, as if it may have not happened nor give in to the turks' hegemony. Basically to their territorial ownership of our rights to our lands.

[Haykakan]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

I dont think you realise that this was not up for negotiation, this was not a request. The powers of the world sat down drew this up and gave it to us, they did not ask if it was ok or if we wanted to change anything. This was the offer Armenia cannot refuse just like in the godfather movie. It doesnt matter if serj was president or julies ceazar himself, anyone would have gone along with it, there was no choice.

[KanadaHye]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Russia and China sign trade deals

China and Russia have signed trade agreements worth $3.5bn (£2.2bn).

About 40 contracts were signed by Russian and Chinese businessmen and officials, Russian deputy prime minister Alexander Zhukov said.

The head of Russia's Gazprom, Alexei Miller, said a preliminary deal had also been struck on supplying 70bn cubic metres a year of gas to China.

The agreements came during the second day of a visit to Beijing by Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

Russia is keen to bolster its economy, which President Dmitry Medvedev has said will decline by 7.5% in 2009.

It is keen to sell more oil and gas to China - the world's second-biggest energy user.

Mr Zhukov told reporters that the deals included two $500m loans from Chinese banks to Russian financial institutions.

One was from the China Development Bank to its Russian counterpart Vnesheconombank, while the other was from the Agricultural Bank of China to Russia's state-run VTB bank.

He said other deals included investments by Chinese firms in Russian construction facilities, but gave no details.

Currency ambition

Trade between Russia and China has risen from less than $10bn to more than $50bn annually over the past six years.

The heart of the relationship is Beijing's thirst for Russian energy - oil and gas make up more than half of Russian exports to China.

Earlier this year, Moscow signed a $25bn agreement to help fund a pipeline to supply oil from Siberia to China. In exchange, China was guaranteed a 20-year supply of crude oil.

However, Moscow is also keen to boost exports of machinery, especially aviation equipment and nuclear power plants - though analysts say that China's appetite for Russian goods other than energy and raw materials is limited.

The countries are seeking to expand the amount of business they do in their own currencies, rather than the US dollar. However, currently only about 1% of their dealings involve roubles or yuan.


ANALYSIS

Rupert Wingfield-Hayes, BBC News, Moscow

Beijing and Moscow call it a "strategic partnership", but in reality it is a lot more complex and fraught with tension.

The trade relationship could be described as "you dig it up, we buy it". Russia is rich in resources: oil, gas, metals and timber. China has a huge appetite.

But Russian nervousness about China can be seen in their energy deals. Russia needs to invest billions to build new pipelines to send its oil and gas to China. Beijing has the money, but Moscow will not allow Chinese companies to build and own these pipelines. Instead, China is having to lend Russia the money.

It is all about history and demographics. Big chunks of the Russian Far East were once part of the Chinese empire and there is deep concern in Russia that a rich, powerful and over-populated China will one day want it back.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8304084.stm