The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

[Federate]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Moscow promises money to Yerevan and arms for Baku for leading role in Karabakh talks

17.04.2009 12:05 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Urgent international security issues were discussed in Yerevan by CSTO Foreign Ministers yesterday. Taking the opportunity, Russian FM Sergei Lavrov met with Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan to agree on conduction of trilateral summit on Karabakh, thus confirming Moscow leading role in resolution of the conflict. The same topic was discussed by the Russian and Azerbaijani leaders in Moscow.According to Kommersant daily, if Yerevan and Baku resort to Kremlin’s mediation, they will be awarded. Thus, Armenia can receive generous financial assistance while Azerbaijan can be supplied with arms.The edition underscores that Sergei Lavrov secured Serzh Sargsyan’s consent for participation in trilateral summit on Karabakh.

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=30543

[jgk3]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

It is a pro-Russian establishment thread, you're correct, because it's dealing with their politics and how it influences the state of affairs in Armenia. This thread has always been this way. Feel free to point out particular criticisms on the issues discussed (articles/news developments). I know that your attitude towards the users you mentioned can incite needless tensions in the future, and I don't want this. I want you to use your own expertise as an asset for showing other members what to analyze, what to look for in these developments as a worthwhile way of evaluating the news developments/articles that get posted, and not as a war hammer (even if you think this entire thread is silly) which will result in warnings and closed threads or thread cleanups.

Already, you seem to show a disposition for prioritizing "the people" of a nation when you analyze its health. There are users that post here who don't prioritize them as above the geopolitical interests, or rather, necessities of a nation. If you fail to appreciate their orientation and the significance of geopolitics in the world altogether, obviously you will find much of this thread to be propaganda and jibberish. So do point out when statements coming out of RT may contradict statistical studies done on the actual health of the Russian economy, the state's budget expenditure, etc... but I encourage you to also understand the ultimate military goals of this nation, the resources it is trying to keep its hands on (rather than to lose them to America, or even China should it not be able to continue effective partnership committees and alliances with it). Understand that when any modern nation hands over the reigns of power (through democracy lets say) to its "people" (under the pretense that they can live this ideal, economically happy life), they are actually either creating a political vacuum to be filled by a former rival, or are actively allowing for the political subversion of their nation (like the case of all the Colour revolutions of Georgia and the Ukraine), in Russia's case, by the Neo-Liberal West, appealing to the masses with classic promises of "democracy, free-market, etc...", seeking to bring Russia and her resources securely under her wing so as not to give her a chance to challenge them as a dangerous rival with its own agenda in the 21st century.

This dimension of Russian affairs is not bs or propaganda, and it directly affects the state of affairs in Armenia and her neighbours, which is why this thread was made to begin with. Denying this dimension's importance would be the equivalent of denying a similar analysis conducted on Napoleanic France's geopolitical situation vis-a-vis the British Coalition, even though the outcome of the whole rivalry had grand and pervasive consequences for the entire world and her civilizations.

You are correct to say that the leadership of America and that of Russia are of the same, modernistic bureaucratic and business oriented class in terms of their values and how they do their bidding, the question is, what are the implications of their agendas for the world? Given this climate of two, very non-traditionalist hierarchies of leadership clashing against eachother, what can we, "the people" that are curious enough to try to investigate the situation and its trends even though we operate outside of their exclusive circles, do for ourselves, how will we navigate through these circumstances? What will we pledge our support for, what will be wary of? Which is the lesser evil? Eventually, one will realize that siding with "the people" all the time is really no sure fire way to go about all these questions in the long run, especially if they want to realize something greater for themselves than just some emotional stability offered by rudimentary socialized comforts which they have to pay humiliating amounts in taxes or state mandated insurance policies that leave them little different in terms of materialized "independence" or "freedom" when compared to historical serfs. If people are smart in choosing what to fight for and when, they can resurrect their traditional states of order in the institutions of their country, not powered by greed or need for control but for a higher level of cohesiveness between the classes, structured not to host a self-centered serfdom called "the proletariat" serving self centered oligarchs but to have a rigidly rank based society where divisions of labour and even personal nature is well defined and ordered, all understanding their purpose on the Earth and their loyalty to their country and its traditions. I do not see how a self realized Russian can not partake in this kind of approach.

The "people", Russian or not, tend not to be aware of any of the distinctions I've made above, they are not even aware of the order of affairs which dictate their state of consciousness to begin with when they judge their health solely by their ability to participate in the national economy and the socialized services offered by the government, and as a result, cannot escape its centralizing psychological force, robbing them of their determination to zealously pursue traditional means of protecting, clothing and feeding themselves for example. If they have been robbed of their traditional lifestyles and values in the past, it is up to them to re-assume them now.

[zeytuntsi]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Current crisis to be a lot harder for Russia than default in 1998

I just want to add that the Russians fall in 2 categories: a minority who have benefited from the economic boom and the majority who did not. Those who did not are in an even worse situation than a couple of years ago. Those who did and have invested in a home, car or...have seen their ruble denominated revenues evaporate and their dollar denominated debt go up because of the weakness of the ruble. The same is true of basic needs like food and consumer products that are imported.

This thread has played out to be more of an archive than anything, reflecting the point of views of Armenian and the users who shared his view of Russia and Armenia.

This thread is too narrow in scope to be an archive. For me it's a soviet/KGB style propaganda thread.

I would consider both pro-Russian side and the anti-Russian side (led by the West, particularly) as propaganda but which one would be more in tune with Armenia's interests? For now, I'd rather stick to advocating the pro-Russian propaganda.

Is it always? Even if it was "more in tune with Armenia's interests" it's not wise to make choices based on limited information and willingly reject the incovenient truth. How does it help? I'm glad that the Armenian leaders have been wiser and did not put all their eggs in the same basket.

This thread is pro-Russian establishment and that does not always mean pro-Russian. When I watch Russia Today I only see Americans/British repeating what you call "pro-Russian" propaganda but they talk, think and see the world the way Americans do, they have the same values as Americans. When I read Armenian, crusader or yerazhishda I only see Americans who will probably flip-flop when the anti-West, anti-Bush hype will stop being trendy anymore or when their interests will dictate it. There's a total disconnect between them and Russians.

[Lucin]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Zeytuntsi, your article actually comes from: www.marketoracle.co.uk, not http://www.topix.com/forum/world/rus...8GDM7BL8CPJUEF, though I did enjoy the lsilly Ukrainians posting there.

Wherever you go on the net, or in the news, it seems that there is a rigid divide between the pro-Russian sources and the Pro-West (Nato/Britain/US) ones. For those of you who haven't noticed, this rigid divide has also reached our forums with The Rise of the Russian Empire and the Is Russia a Banana Republic thread. Both threads, in and of themselves, serve is good archives for information piled together by advocates of either side.

I would consider both pro-Russian side and the anti-Russian side (led by the West, particularly) as propaganda but which one would be more in tune with Armenia's interests? For now, I'd rather stick to advocating the pro-Russian propaganda.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Turkey arms Georgia
01 April, 2009, 22:48

Turkey provided the Georgian Army, Air Force and Special Forces with unspecified military equipment, shortly after Georgia was visited by a high-ranking US General on Monday.

The appropriate documentation was signed by Major Nikoloz Bedniauri, Chief of the Logistics Department at Georgia’s Joint Staff, and Staff Captain Savas Abitzh, from the Turkish side, the
News-Georgia agency reports with reference to the Ministry of Defense in Tbilisi.

The amount and type of equipment supplied has not been disclosed.

The material and technical aid is aimed at supporting the Georgian Air Force, Army and Special Forces, as well as the Logistics Department, Motor Transport Battalion and the National Defense Academy.

The decision to allot the grant for military equipment dates back to 2005, the agency reports.

Along with other countries, including the United States and Ukraine, Turkey provides impressive military assistance to Georgia. As the Russian Defense Ministry reports, the overall arsenal recently purchased by Tbilisi from Ankara includes 60 armoured troop-carriers, 2 helicopters, firearms with ammunition, telecommunication and navigation systems and military vehicles worth $730,000. More armour, Pakistan-manufactured missiles, speedboats and other ammunition is planned for delivery in the near future.

Since 1997, the overall amount of military help Turkey has rendered to Georgia, has reached $45 million. An additional $2.65 million has been provided to purchase air-defense systems.

"Georgian Armed Forces from now on will receive training in defensive operations," the chief of Georgia's Joint Staffs, Devi Chankotadze, told reporters on Tuesday.

The news came shortly after General James Cartwright, the Vice Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, made his visit to Georgia this Monday.

“The General said during Monday’s visit to Georgia that the US would give assistance to this country both in terms of training the Armed Forces and in terms of technology,” Chankotadze referred to his words.

No reaction from Russia’s officials has followed so far. Russia had earlier tried to bring an international embargo on military supplies to Georgia, but officials say the initiative was not widely supported abroad. In January, President Dmitry Medvedev signed a law forbidding the sales of arms from Russia to Georgia. The arms embargo will last until December 2011.

source: http://www.russiatoday.com/Politics/...s_Georgia.html

[KarotheGreat]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Russia to deliver 22 Mi-17 helicopters to Iraq

Helicopters of Russia Holding signed a contract with Airfreight Aviation Ltd of Saudi Arabia to deliver 22 Mi-17 civil helicopters to Iraq, Interfax reports.

Airfreight Aviation Ltd is a certified service center that has an extensive experience of working with Russia’s Mi helicopters in the Middle East, an official spokesperson for the holding said.

The Arab company will refine the Russian helicopters in cooperation with the Moscow-based helicopter plant, which designs Mi-17 and other Mi helicopters.

The deal to deliver 22 Russian helicopters to Iraq is evaluated at $80 million.

The Mil Mi-17 (also known as the Mi-8M series in Russian service, NATO reporting name ("Hip") is a Russian-designed helicopter currently in production at two factories in Kazan and Ulan-Ude.

Developed from the basic Mi-8 airframe, the Mi-17 was fitted with the larger TV3-117MT engines, rotors, and transmission developed for the Mi-14, along with fuselage improvements for heavier loads. Optional engines for 'hot and high' conditions are the 1545kW (2070 shp) Isotov TV3-117VM. Recent exports to China and Venezuela for use in high mountains have the new VK-2500 version of the engine with FADEC control.

The designation Mi-17 is for export; Russian armed forces call it Mi-8MT. The Mi-17 can be recognized because it has the tail rotor on the port side instead of the starboard side, and dust shields in front of the engine intakes. Engine cowls are shorter than on the TV2 powered Mi-8, not extending as far over the xxxxpit, and an opening for bleed-valve outlet is present forward of the exhaust.

source: http://english.pravda.ru/russia/econ.../107349-Mi17-0

[KarotheGreat]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Current crisis to be a lot harder for Russia than default in 1998

The current economic crisis will be a lot harder than the financial collapse of 1998, a recent report from the World Bank said. WB experts believe that Russia will have to deal with severe problems as a result of the crisis. The economic growth in the country will decline considerably and the recovery will take a much longer time in comparison with the critical period of 1998, when Russia declared default.

As the crisis continues to spread to the real economy around the world, initial expectations that Russia and other countries will recover fast are no longer likely," the World Bank said in its latest Russian Economic Report.

The economic crisis of 1998 was a classic example of the budget and currency crisis. Russia’s national currency collapsed, but the economy skyrocketed very soon with the help of export. In general, it was the crisis of the state sector. The economic shock of 2008, which started as the crisis of the private sector, was triggered with excessive borrowings, whereas the situation remained stable financially.

The World Bank believes that the unemployment level in Russia would grow to 12 percent against 6.3 percent in 2008. The level of poverty will reach 15.5 percent, which will be 2.8 percent higher than it was before the crisis.

The inflation rate in Russia will make up 11-13 percent. The growth of prices on imports and the weakening of the budget policy will be the major factors contributing to the growth of the inflation rate.

The WB forecasts a 4.5-percent decline of the Russian economy in 2009. The year 2010 will be characterized with the zero growth of the GDP. The home demand will drop considerably, whereas the general social and economic situation will aggravate too, WB specialists said in the report.

The deficit of the federal budget in 2010 will make up six percent of the GDP. The experts said that the government’s forecast of the 7.4-percent of the federal budget deficit is quite real: the government will be able to fund the deficit with the help of the reserve fund.

WB specialists also said that Russia’s insignificant foreign debt did not impose any restrictions for borrowing. In addition, Russia remains a solvent country that receives considerable income from oil and gas imports even under the crisis conditions.

As for the world economy, it is expected to suffer a 1.7-percent decline. The volume of world commerce is expected to decline by 6.1 percent, but the world GDP can grow by 2.3 percent in 2010.

source: http://english.pravda.ru/russia/econ...5-world_bank-0

[KarotheGreat]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Paper suggests NATO fighter jets may be based at Russian border

25 March, 2009, 13:15

A high-ranking officer of the US Air Force says NATO should move F-16s now stationed at the Aviano Air Base in Italy to Poland.

Lt. Col. Chris Sage, assistant executive officer to the Air Force Chief of Staff penned his opinion in a paper called “Transforming United States Air Forces in Europe and Empowering Poland.” It was published in the spring edition of Air & Space Power Journal.

“It is in the national interest of the United States to continue to transform USAFE by relocating U.S. F-16s currently in Italy to new bases in Poland,” Sage argues. The Italian base lacks training opportunities, especially with live munitions, and has logistical problems due to the construction development in the region where Aviano is located. There is also growing disapproval of US foreign policy in some parts of Italian society.

Poland, on the other hand, is an eager new friend of the US, which supports American initiatives in Afghanistan and Iraq, and agreed to host elements of the antimissile defence system. Poland has less strict airspace regulations and ready air-to-ground training ranges.

Read more

In 2001, the country has also bought 48 F-16s from the US “thus ensuring hardware commonality, heightened interoperability, and in-depth training in US tactics and operational warfare.” By hosting a US air base, Poland would accelerate training for its own pilots.

Sage admits the plan is ambitious both in terms of cost and political considerations. The price tag for relocating Aviano personnel and equipment to Poland would be higher than the $1 billion allocated for the expansion of the Italian base. The new location will have logistical challenges of its own and people will see their living standards decreased after the move.

The relocation would also cause resistance from some groups in Poland, where there is no consensus, for example, over hosting the antimissile shield. And Russia is bound to object to having a US air base in the state bordering its enclave in the Kaliningrad region.

Academic paper

When asked about Sage’s proposals by Star and Stripes magazine, USAF in Europe and Brig. Gen. Craig Franklin, commander of the 31st Fighter Wing at Aviano, noted that is was an “academic paper,” and declined to comment further.

Officials at the Polish Ministry of Defence did not answer to a query.

The 31st FW at Aviano Air Base includes a maintenance group, a mission support group, a medical group and an operations group consisting of two fighter squadrons.

source: http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/...an_border.html

[KarotheGreat]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Kazan officially becomes Russia's Third Capital

The struggle for the title “Russia’s Third Capital” (following Moscow and St. Petersburg) between the governments of Kazan and Nizhni Novgorod is now over. Kazan, the capital of the Republic of Tatarstan, has won. The authorities of the city have already registered trademarks “Russia’s Third Capital” and “ Russia’s third City” at the Russian Patent Agency

Kazan started using “Russia’s Third Capital” slogan in March 2007 at international exhibitions in France and Germany. The use of the slogan triggered a conflict between the authorities of Kazan and Nizhni Novgorod, whose officials claimed that Kazan had illegally appropriated the high status.

The city of Nizhni Novgorod claims its right for the title too. The city is widely known in Russia as one of the oldest Russian cities. It used to be the capital of a Novgorod-Suzdal principality during the second half of the 14th century. The government of Tatarstan said that Vladimir Putin referred to Kazan as the third capital of Russia during the 100th anniversary of the city in 2005.

Kazan is one of the largest cities of Russia with a million-strong population (52 percent of Tatars and 43 percent of Russians). It is a major industrial, commercial and cultural center of the country.

In 1552, the city was conquered by Russia under Ivan the Terrible and the majority of the population was massacred. During the governorship of Alexander Gorbatyi-Shuisky, most of the khanates's Tatar residents were killed, repressed, or forcibly Christianized. Mosques and palaces were ruined. The surviving Tatar population was moved to a place 50 km away from the city and this place was forcibly settled by Russian farmers and soldiers. Tatars in the Russian service were settled in the Tatar Bistäse settlement near the city's wall. Later Tatar merchants and handicraft masters also settled there.

Kazan was largely destroyed as a result of several great fires. After one of them in 1579, the icon Our Lady of Kazan was discovered in the city. During the Time of Troubles in Russia the independence of the Kazan Khanate was restored with the help of the Russian population, but this independence was suppressed by Kuzma Minin in 1612. The history of that period requires further research.

The city has a beautiful citadel, which was declared the World Heritage Site in 2000. Major monuments in the kremlin are the 5-domed 6-columned Annunciation Cathedral (1561-62) and the mysterious leaning Soyembika Tower, named after the last queen of Kazan and regarded as the city's most conspicuous landmark.

Also of interest are the towers and walls, erected in the 16th and 17th centuries but later reconstructed; the Qol-Şarif mosque, which is already rebuilt inside the citadel; remains of the Saviour Monastery (its splendid 16th-century cathedral having been demolished by the Bolsheviks) with the Spasskaya Tower; and the Governor's House (1843-53), designed by Konstantin Thon, now the Palace of the President of Tatarstan.

source: http://english.pravda.ru/russia/hist...107354-kazan-0

[jgk3]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

You answered well zeytuntsi, thanks. I can see that you're not hostile and I agree that people should be able to discuss these issues together even though they disagree.

This thread has played out to be more of an archive than anything, reflecting the point of views of Armenian and the users who shared his view of Russia and Armenia. Some people would prefer to keep it this way but I would like them to be able to respond to the concerns you bring up, particularly on Russia's economy because its stability and well-being is what enables them to power all of the grand projects such as the modernization of their military.