Armenian-Turkish Relations

[seruven]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Russia and Armenia do not share a border and are not even close to having one.

Sorry for that stupid mistake. But it does not change my original argument. According to the politician you've quoted, countries, which are smaller and poorer compared to their neighbors, should not have open borders with them.

After all, when you formulate his thoughts, it does not make much of a sense (Unless you are very into heterodox economics).

[JohnCanadian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think it is good that Turkey and Armenia are reestablishing their Diplomatic relations albeit very slowly, this will ensure the peace is being upheld along with the values of Democracy being respected between the two countries.

I believe in the long term Turkey and Armenia have quite a lot to gain as the trust begins to build.

People to people trade and goods will expand. Armenia is the country that is worst effected then Turkey. However Turkey loses out on tourists numbers from Armenia that could add the strength of the developed Turkish Tourist Industry. Turkey could have more numbers if it was to open up its market to Armenia. I do not believe that Armenia's extremely low purchasing power will have an effect on the number of tourists into Turkey from Armenia.

Armenia will slowly start developing as a result of the opening of Turkish markets which provide Armenia immense opportunities to trade with its bigger neighbour.

I support any kind of rapprochement into foreign relations between countries that have been damaged.

[Army]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think it is good that Turkey and Armenia are reestablishing their Diplomatic relations albeit very slowly, this will ensure the peace is being upheld along with the values of Democracy being respected between the two countries.

I believe in the long term Turkey and Armenia have quite a lot to gain as the trust begins to build.

People to people trade and goods will expand. Armenia is the country that is worst effected then Turkey. However Turkey loses out on tourists numbers from Armenia that could add the strength of the developed Turkish Tourist Industry. Turkey could have more numbers if it was to open up its market to Armenia. I do not believe that Armenia's extremely low purchasing power will have an effect on the number of tourists into Turkey from Armenia.

Armenia will slowly start developing as a result of the opening of Turkish markets which provide Armenia immense opportunities to trade with its bigger neighbour.

I support any kind of rapprochement into foreign relations between countries that have been damaged.

Open borders would lower the risk of a 'war'.. (Seriosly, I do not think that Ankara considers 'invading' Armenia.. its a paranoia people have on that issue)

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Open borders would lower the risk of a 'war'.. (Seriosly, I do not think that Ankara considers 'invading' Armenia.. its a paranoia people have on that issue)

The last time Turkey tried to invade Armenia was 14 years ago. What has changed since than? What guarantee do we have that they will not try invading again?

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

The only reason they aren't invading is because of Russia, but this thought is beyond anything the average Turk is willing to comprehend or admit, as they do not see their government's policy with domestic minorities and Armenia to be of a direct descendant of the CUP's that only tailors its present actions according to how badly Europe or Russia can bite its ass if it gets out of line. Exactly the same as its always been.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Yes Russia is the only reason Armenia exists and this border opening is russias idea to begin with so i think the russians are confident about their ability to protect that border or else they wouldnt endorse this.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Looking at Armenian-Turkish Relations - Without the Paranoia, Obsessions or the Hysteria

Revised Version

The so-called "protocols" have been discussed at length. Many approaches, be it ideological, political, ethical or spiritual, have been taken into full account. Thus far, the picture painted by many in the diaspora looks utterly bleak bordering on apocalyptic. One thing, however, that I have yet to see seriously scrutinized is the crucially important factor of geopolitics, or the thing we call realpolitik. The links provided below are regarding some interesting geopolitical and economic developments occurring, somewhat under the radar, within the Caucasus. The information that I am providing you here is crucial for better understanding what is occurring in the Caucasus today. Thus, they definitely deserve a serious look. I urge you all to make some time and read them. But before that, I have a few comments to make...

Basing my opinion on what I have been observing in regional developments for the past several years, it is quite obvious that there are serious plans for the greater Caucasus region, plans in which Armenia may take center stage. The mastermind of this new agenda is Vladimir Putin's Moscow. And one of the most obvious manifestations of this agenda has been the warming of relations between Turkey and Armenia; of course under the watchful eyes of the Kremlin.

Don't believe shallow talk concerning the rapprochement between Turkey and Armenia being a Western agenda. It is far from it. The West is currently powerless in the Caucasus. Thus, in a sense, it is forced to go along with the political/economic process set in motion by Moscow. Let's remember that the warming of relations between Ankara and Yerevan was started in Moscow just before the Russian-Georgian war. This process then reached a climax when Turkey's Gul visited Armenia in the immediate aftermath of Russia's war against Georgia - a war that saw the decisive defeat of the American-European-Turkish-Israeli backed regime in Tbilisi. According to international political analysts, Georgia's defeat more-or-less eliminated Western and Turkish (and by extension, Israeli) interests from within the Caucasus region.

For those who are unfamiliar with the geopolitics of the region, a simple explanation - For the past twenty years or so the West, in-tandem with Turkey and Israel, has been attempting to wrestle the strategic region of the Caucasus away from Russian control. The bloody Islamic insurgency in Chechnya and the arming of Georgia had been a part of the greater anti-Russian agenda of the West. However, we Armenians need to be mindful of the fact that without a Russian presence in the Caucasus the entire region in question will no doubt turn into a Turkic/Islamic cesspool and a playground for various intelligence services. Needless to say, Armenia cannot live as a state in the Caucasus without an effective Russian presence there.

With the Caucasus now effectively in their hands, and at their mercy, Moscow seems to be embarked on long term plan to essentially remake the Caucasus in its image. And, for better or for worst, Moscow has decided that it will use its regional strategic partner, Armenia, as its staging-ground for deeper relations with regional nations. Simply put, Armenia is expected to project Russian power in the south Caucasus and Asia Minor. And due to Europe's severe dependency on Central Asian gas and oil (that which Moscow now fully controls) and the economic crisis that currently engulfs them, the West is more-or-less going along with Moscow's plans. In other words, they can't stop it so they are putting a happy face on it and hoping to reap some benefits from it.

Nonetheless, before we figuratively speaking hang our nation's leadership for some vague wordage used on some meaningless piece of paper, let's all realize that a tiny, impoverished nation surrounded by enemies in the Caucasus has very limited leverage on an international negotiation table. We must realize that Armenia is not, nor can it be under its current geopolitical circumstances, a truly an independent state. What we need to be grateful about, however, is the simple fact that for once in our recent history we as a nation serve the strategic interests of a regional superpower. And what we can take pride in is the simple fact that as a result of its strategic relationship with Moscow Armenia's (as well as Artsakh's) borders have never been stronger.

So, don't worry, even if our leadership were all a bunch of traitors and they all wanted to sell Armenia to the Turks, Russians would not allow it, nor would Iranians for that matter. Let's not forget what happened to Vazgen Sargsyan and Garen Demirjyan when they got too close to the West back in 1999... Therefore, don't kid yourselves folks, if the Kremlin thought that the southern Caucasus would be penetrated by Turks as a result of "open borders" with Armenia there would be no Turkish-Armenian relations to speak of today.

I personally do not believe that our leadership in Yerevan is stupid, in that they do not understand politics, nor do I believe that they are treasonous, in that they have been bought by Turks. Our leadership in Yerevan is forced to go along with the greater agenda that has been placed on the table as they try to extract some benefit from it. Let us also take into serious consideration the cold realization that Armenia is stagnating politically and economically due to its isolation and poverty. If nothing is done about this predicament, in a generation or two the landlocked and resource-less country may forever sink into a Third World oblivion. Our leadership needs to do anything and everything, within proper boundaries of course, to ensure Armenia's prosperity and longevity.

With some concerns and reservations I remain hopeful that something good will come out of the current political process. I am looking at what's occurring in Armenian-Turkish relations objectively and rationally, without the paranoia, hysteria or obsessions expressed by many in our diaspora. And for Armenia's sake, I hope you prophets of doom are wrong and I am right. In final analysis, we in the diaspora, as long as we choose to remain in the diaspora, have no right to 'demand' anything from officials in Armenia because it is the natives of Armenia that will have to live with the consequences of politics - not us. Armenia cannot be the diaspora's test tube nor can it be held hostage to its ideological whims.

I ask you again to read the following material to better understand what is happening in the Caucasus today.

Armenian

The Caucasus: Small War, Big Damage: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/t...6.php?CID=1176

That Was No Small War in Georgia — It Was the Beginning of the End of the American Empire: http://donvandergriff.wordpress.com/...erican-empire/

Caucasus Is Real Citadel of Russian Power: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...le/383525.html

A Northern Neighbor Growls, and Azerbaijan Reassesses Its Options: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/23/wo...i.html?_r=1&em

RUSSIA: MOSCOW MULLS CONSTRUCTION OF ARMENIA-IRAN RAILWAY LINK:

http://www.eurasianet.org/department...v093009b.shtml

ARMENIA: RAILWAY PREPARES TO GO TO TURKEY: http://www.eurasianet.org/department...v092909c.shtml

Seven-thousand kilometer project is awaiting parliamentary approval: http://www.sabahenglish.com/news/8386.html

Turkish press: EU to involve Armenia in Nabucco project at Georgia’s expense: http://news.am/en/news/3805.html

Asian Bank To Fund Road Projects In Armenia, Georgia: http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/1839958.html

Alexey Miller: Iran, Turkey to do gas swaps through Armenia: http://news.am/en/news/3883.html

Gasprom considers possible construction of oil refinery in Armenia: http://www.arka.am/eng/energy/2009/06/23/15426.html

Russia signs deal to build Turkey's first nuclear power plant: http://en.rian.ru/business/20090806/155747143.html

Azerbaijan: The Stark New Energy Landscape: http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/en/co...rgy-landscape/

Shifting Geopolitics- The Rise of Russia and Turkey: http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9509.html

YEVSEYEV: TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TOWARDS RUSSIAN INTERESTS: http://www.historyoftruth.com/news/y...ests-3978.html

Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Is Possible – and Necessary: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=10083

Turkey in tight spot between Russia and NATO: http://www.reuters.com/article/reute...BrandChannel=0

Turkey Plays to Russia in Caucasus: http://www.kommersant.com/p1022936/r...rkey_Caucasus/

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armanen i realize self interest comes first but i would not want hayastan to be like the zionist state, isreal is a pool of racism and narcicism and i dont want neither one for Hayastan. Self interest and honor and dignity are not necesserily mutually exclusive.

I think we are on the same page more or less. Yet, two countries with racism and narcicism, turkey and israel, are doing quite well for themselves. Certainly there is a lesson to be learned from them. And I realize if it were not for American interests in both they would not be in their current positions.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I wasn't sure where to post this but its interesting in that it shows that for all of its modernizing and democratic steps and improvements in minority relations turckey has a long way to go

stTert.am

Reporters in Turkey Punished for Visiting Karabakh

11:49 ˘ 03.10.09

On one of Turkey's most widely publicized TV stations yesterday, NTV
journalists weren't allowed to attend a press conference organized by
Turkey's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. As informed by Tert.am's
correspondent in Istanbul, the reason for being denied access wasn't
officially announced, but all knew what the real reason was. The issue
is connected with NTV reporter Bilge Egemen who visited the Republic
of Nagorno-Karabakh and had prepared a series of reports and broadcast
them from Karabakh.

A few days ago, Azerbaijan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs responded
curtly to this, after which Turkey's Foreign Affairs Ministry also
made a decision not to allow NTV's reporters to cover Ministry of
Foreign Affairs' events. Turkey's Foreign Affairs Ministry finally
officially announced that it is prohibiting broadcasting of Turkish FM
Ahmet Davutoglu's meetings in Azerbaijan and Nakhichevan.

This step has instigated a serious complaint from Turkey's
journalists, who are already referring to the decision as hindering
freedom of speech, which they find to be unacceptable. Representatives
from the TV station promised to state their position on the issue
after Turkey's Ministry of Foreign Affairs officially announces the
reason for its decision.
ill.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I'm facepalming every time I hear Armenians speak in Armenian and use the word "protocol" in it because people do not know the Armenian translation for it. The word is "Դիւանագիտական կարգուձեւ" (divanagitakan kargudzev (EA) or tivanakidagan garkutsev (WA)).

A word that's used in more everyday language and that could substitute for "brotokol" (Armenian accent) as well is արձանագրութիւն (ardzanagrutyun in EA and artsanakrutioun in WA).