Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Those comments are for the domestic market. The leadership of turkey will do what is in its interests or if the Great Powers continue to force their hand, which they seem to be doing.

But Erdogan issued it to the White House. They would not back out of this after repeating time and again that Artsakh 'resolution' (ie Armenian abandonment of Artsakh to Azeris) is part of the 'deal' of the establishment of Armeno-Turkish relations - already a clear violation of the so-called agreement between the sides.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Those comments are for the domestic market. The leadership of turkey will do what is in its interests or if the Great Powers continue to force their hand, which they seem to be doing.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

ERDOGAN ISSUES AN ULTIMATUM

President Barack Obama hailed the Armenia-Turkey protocols and pledged US support for the process as Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erodagan, on the eve of his meeting with the president, issued an ultimatum to the White House saying that normalization process could not move forward without an end to the Karabakh conflict.

“We have announced to U.S. representatives since the beginning that if you want to resolve the Turkish Armenian issue you should also resolve the Karabakh conflict. Otherwise, you will fail to resolve either,” Erdogan told the Azeri ANS TV ahead of his scheduled meeting on December 7 with Obama at the White House.

“This is because the Turkish-Armenian issue and the Nagorno-Karabakh problem are interrelated. I told this to Barack Obama and Dmitry Medvedev, to which they replied: ‘We will accelerate this question,’” claimed Erdogan adding that “if the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict is settled, the Turkish-Armenian problem will also be finally resolved.”

Meanwhile in Washington, Obama, in response to a letter addressed to him by a group of Armenian organizations supporting the protocols, among them the Armenian Assembly of America, the AGBU and the Diocese, voiced his “vigorous” support for the protocols, but again fell short of characterizing the events of 1915 as “genocide.”

“I agree that normalization between Armenia and Turkey should move forward without preconditions and within a reasonable timeframe. On October 10, Secretary Clinton represented the United States at the historic signing of the protocols providing a framework for normalization. We continue to support Armenia and Turkey as they move ahead to fulfill the promise of normalization,” said Obama.

“Regarding the past, I deeply appreciate your views on what is one of the great atrocities of the 20th century. As I said in my Remembrance Day message, my view of that history has not changed. My interest remains the achievement of a full, frank, and just acknowledgement of the facts. I believe that the best way to advance that goal is for the Armenian and Turkish people to address the facts of the past as part of their efforts to move forward. We will continue to vigorously support the normalization effort in the months ahead,” added Obama.

“Prime Minister Erdogan – having succeeded in using the Ankara-inspired Protocols to enlist the cooperation of yet another U.S. Administration into its campaign to block recognition of the Armenian Genocide – is now coming to Washington to cement his gains and further press his advantage,” said ANCA Executive Director Aram Hamparian.

“High on his agenda, it seems, will be showcasing Turkey’s public disregard for President Obama’s twin priorities for Armenia-Turkey normalization, namely that they be established without preconditions and within a reasonable time-frame. Today, more than seven months after our President’s speech in Ankara – during which he broke his pledge to recognize the Armenian Genocide – it’s patently clear that Turkey has in fact imposed preconditions, will not act in a reasonable time-frame, and, more broadly, views this entire process as simply a way to extend U.S. complicity in Turkey’s denials from one April 24th to the next,” added Hamparian.

Erdogan, whose government unequivocally rejected a US call for troops to Afghanistan, travels to the US with the intention to address the Karabakh conflict within the context of the Armenia-Turkey protocols, ignoring Obama’s own clearly-stated view that the Armenia-Turkey talks should proceed without preconditions.

At the same time, the White House has chosen to selectively respond to Armenian-American community concerns, choosing to address only those voices that represent a clear minority in support of the US-backed protocols.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I wonder who writes this sort of rubbish (and what idiots pay them for it)?

The Turkish railway system is modern and in excellent repair and its long-distance rolling stock is as modern as anywhere in Europe - and decades ahead of anything in Georgia or Armenia. The line east of Ankara is single-line only, and it is that that restricts the speed and frequency of the trains.
Few people use trains for long-distance travel because the road system in Turkey is very good, well maintained, and always taking the direct route since they are built with a zero regard for the amount of environmental destruction caused or the number of tunnels or bridges that would need to be constructed. There are fast and relatively inexpensive bus routes everywhere - and almost every city is linked to Ankara or Istanbul by daily flights. Goods are mostly transported by road for the same reasons. The train lines were built for strategic reasons, and that together with the geology means that lines between cities are rarely direct.

Would you mind explaing what 'strategic' reasons the turks were thinking of when they built the roads and train lines?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

It will benefit only minimally because the present physical condition of the Turkish rail system is not promising. Simply put, the Turkish rail system is in such pitiful shape that it is impossible to transport serious amounts of cargo.

As we noted, 70 percent of Armenia's foreign commodity circulation is realized via Georgian rail and Black Sea ports. If we look at the map, will it be possible or advantageous for Armenia to transport its cargo through the Turkey-Armenia border, if it is opened, via Turkish rail and Turkish sea ports?

A slow trip

The rail line from Yerevan to the sea ports of Batumi and Poti are three times shorter than the rail line from Yerevan to the Turkish port of Samsun. Moreover, while the Georgian railroad travels over mostly flatlands, the Turkish rail line passes primarily through mountain ranges. Why should Armenia make use of the Turkish rail line when it is three times longer and in such bad shape? If it takes Armenian cargo less than a day from Yerevan to Batumi, then from Yerevan to the Turkish port of Samsun it would take more than two days.

Even if Turkish transit tariffs are incomparably cheaper than Georgian tariffs, still, in the coming decades Armenia will be using Georgian rail lines because the Turkish railroad, which was built a hundred years ago, is simply not in a condition to carry out cargo transportation.

I wonder who writes this sort of rubbish (and what idiots pay them for it)?

The Turkish railway system is modern and in excellent repair and its long-distance rolling stock is as modern as anywhere in Europe - and decades ahead of anything in Georgia or Armenia. The line east of Ankara is single-line only, and it is that that restricts the speed and frequency of the trains.
Few people use trains for long-distance travel because the road system in Turkey is very good, well maintained, and always taking the direct route since they are built with a zero regard for the amount of environmental destruction caused or the number of tunnels or bridges that would need to be constructed. There are fast and relatively inexpensive bus routes everywhere - and almost every city is linked to Ankara or Istanbul by daily flights. Goods are mostly transported by road for the same reasons. The train lines were built for strategic reasons, and that together with the geology means that lines between cities are rarely direct.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

ABDULAH GUL: ARMENIAN-TURKISH BORDER WILL SOON BE OPENED

armradio.am
23.11.2009 18:25

Asked by Italian "La Stampa" when the citizens of Armenia and Turkey
will be able to pass the border, Turkish President Abdulah Gul said:
"That obstacle will be soon resolved. Of course we'll need some
"technical" period as the document should pass a discussion stage
in the parliaments of both countries. Then we are going to appoint
Ambassadors and the land border will be opened. It's long since the
air border is open," Gul told Italian paper.

Gul declared his country is serious to continue its strategy of
having no problems with neighbors. "If the status of democracy rises
in the country, all taboos disappear," said Gul in view of Armenian
and Kurdish conflicts. Regarding the ties with Armenia, Abdulah Gul
said: "If we speak generally, the world is changing and Turkey is
changing also."

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Georgia to remain vital transit route for Armenia
Regardless of whether Turkey put an end to its blockade of Armenia

The map portrays the Turkish rail system. The distance between Armenia and the Black Sea is smaller via Georgia than it is via Turkey, and the rail lines in Turkey travel more slowly, owing to the bad shape of the lines.


Kars - Armenia is a landlocked country that is also blockaded by two of its four neighbors. One needs only to look at a map to understand the dire situation; territorially the smallest of the former Soviet republics, it is blockaded to the west by Turkey and to the east by Azerbaijan. In fact, 80 percent of the length of its borders is closed, and with it, all roads, rail lines, and pipelines from Turkey and Azerbaijan into Armenia are also closed.

Armenia has a border that's a mere 40 kilometers long but extremely important along the length of the Araks River, which it shares with its southern neighbor, Iran. For Armenia, the border with Georgia is more vital because the main land, rail, and seaborne transportation routes, which allow Armenia to connect with the outside world, pass through Georgia. About 70 percent of Armenia's foreign commodity circulation is realized through Georgian territory - via the Georgian rail system and the ports of Batumi and Poti.

The natural gas pipeline through which Russian natural gas flows into Armenia passes through Georgian territory. A few years ago an alternative Iran-Armenia pipeline was built. However, today Armenia continues to use Russian gas. The gas that reaches Armenia through Iran is converted to electricity and sent back to Iran.

The re-opening of the Russian-Georgian Upper Lars-Kazbegi land border crossing can only have a small effect on Armenia's economy because for Armenia the Georgian rail and Black Sea ports have the most significance.

In the event that the blockade by Turkey is lifted and the Turkey-Armenia border re-opens, Armenia will have new alternative routes to the outside world. With competition, Georgia will be forced to reduce transportation tariffs by a certain amount. Armenia naturally will also benefit to an extent from Turkish transit lines, initially by land transit. However, in the coming decades, thanks to its geographical position, and the good condition of its rail lines and ports, it is Georgia that will continue to remain the most important transit country for Armenia.

In pitiful shape

The lifting of the Turkish blockade would signifies the following: the land border crossings (one at Alijan-Margara by the Araks, which is only 40 km west of Yerevan, and the Kars-Gyumri border crossing) will open; the Kars-Gyumri rail line between Turkey and Armenia, which has been idle since 1993, will open. Air transit between Armenia and Turkey, which was also closed for a few years by Ankara, reopened in 1996. Today, there are regular flights between Yerevan and Istanbul, and in the summer months between Yerevan and Antalya also.
If the border is opened, will Armenian cargo transport immediately benefit from Turkish rail lines? It will benefit only minimally because the present physical condition of the Turkish rail system is not promising. Simply put, the Turkish rail system is in such pitiful shape that it is impossible to transport serious amounts of cargo.

As we noted, 70 percent of Armenia's foreign commodity circulation is realized via Georgian rail and Black Sea ports. If we look at the map, will it be possible or advantageous for Armenia to transport its cargo through the Turkey-Armenia border, if it is opened, via Turkish rail and Turkish sea ports?

A slow trip

The rail line from Yerevan to the sea ports of Batumi and Poti are three times shorter than the rail line from Yerevan to the Turkish port of Samsun. Moreover, while the Georgian railroad travels over mostly flatlands, the Turkish rail line passes primarily through mountain ranges. Why should Armenia make use of the Turkish rail line when it is three times longer and in such bad shape? If it takes Armenian cargo less than a day from Yerevan to Batumi, then from Yerevan to the Turkish port of Samsun it would take more than two days.

Even if Turkish transit tariffs are incomparably cheaper than Georgian tariffs, still, in the coming decades Armenia will be using Georgian rail lines because the Turkish railroad, which was built a hundred years ago, is simply not in a condition to carry out cargo transportation.

It takes passenger trains 45 hours to travel from Kars to Istanbul. This means that Turkish trains travel, on average, 20-25 km/hr. And it is exactly for this reason that the Turks themselves rarely use trains.

Georgian transit will significantly lose value for Armenia when there is a resolution to the Nagornox-xKarabakh conflict and Armenia and Azerbaijan establish normal relations. In that case, aside from the Georgian rail system, Armenia will also equally make use of Azerbaijani railroads that will take it to its most important strategic, political and economic partner, Russia and then on to Europe.

However, there are no expectations that in the near future there will be a resolution of the Karabakh conflict and the railroads connecting Armenia and Azerbaijan - Yerevan-Nakhichevan-Baku and Ichevan-Baku - will begin operating. In fact, if Yerevan and Baku establish normal relations, then Armenia can reconnect with the Iranian rail system also. The Yerevan-Tabriz-Tehran rail line has also been idle for the past two decades because it passes through Nakhichevan.

Armenia and Iran have come to a political decision to build a new railroad, which will cost somewhere between 1 and 2 billion dollars. If that railroad is built, it will be significant, but once again it will not replace the Georgian railroad. For Armenia, perhaps the re-opening of the Abkhazian rail line would be more significant - but remains unrealistic, taking into account the current state of Russian-Georgian relations.

http://www.reporter.am/go/article/2009-11-13-georgia-to-remain-vital-transit-route-for-armenia

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

In a letter sent to the National Assembly last week, Prime Minister Tigran Sarkisian described the Dashnaktsutyun bill as largely “acceptable” but said the Armenian government believes the proposed restrictions should be even tighter. He said they should cover not only land but also all “facilities needing special protection.”

What is more, that would apply to such facilities located all over the country and not only border areas, according to a copy of the letter obtained by RFE/RL.

Almost all of Armenia's "facilities" are already foreign owned - owned by Russia!

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

First heard about him from seruven.
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Turkish-Armenian Writer Reports Death Threats


A Turkish-Armenian newspaper columnist claimed on Friday to have received hundreds of deaths threats after altering a famous quote from the founder of modern Turkey to make a case for sweeping reforms in the country.

The quote was drawn from a 1923 speech by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in which he urged the Turkish youth to fight hard for their homeland. “Your first duty is to preserve and to defend Turkish Independence and the Turkish Republic forever,” declared Ataturk.

“Your first duty is to be a human being,” Sevan Nisanyan, an Istanbul-based ethnic Armenian intellectual, countered in an October 29 article published by the “Taraf” daily. “This is the very foundation of your existence and your future. This foundation is your most precious treasure.”

Speaking to RFE/RL by phone, Nisanyan said the appeal infuriated nationalist Turks and he has since received about 800 e-mails and letters containing verbal abuse and threats to kill him. “People have gone mad,” he said. “The reaction has been like ‘How dare an Armenian write such strong and negative things about Ataturk?’”

Some of those letters were reprinted by “Taraf” this week. “We will make you write the correct version of the ‘Address to Youth’ with your own blood. … I’ll kill you like that Hrant Dink dog,” one of them read, referring to the Turkish-Armenian editor gunned down in Istanbul in January 2007.

“I believe that the military is behind this uproar,” Nisanyan charged, adding that he has already appealed to the Turkish police for protection. “The police have been the more liberal party in recent years,” he said. “The biggest problem is the military. The police have been very friendly and helped me a lot.”

http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/1877715.html

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Sefilian and the Hunchaks have no place with LTP's cronies. They are losing legitimacy in the eyes of many by continuing their support for the cyclops even though their alliance is incompatible with their respective views. They should break away and join the ARF's led opposition.
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Allies Disagree With Ter-Petrosian Line On Turkey


Two small groups aligned with the opposition Armenian National Congress (HAK) took issue on Friday with its top leader Levon Ter-Petrosian’s harsh attacks on nationalist critics of Armenia’s rapprochement with Turkey.

The Alliance of Armenian Volunteers (HKH), a hard-line pressure group mainly campaigning against any territorial concessions to Azerbaijan, said it will hold a meeting soon to discuss Ter-Petrosian’s latest speech and its future relationship with the HAK. The HKH’s Lebanese-Armenian leader, Zhirayr Sefilian, told RFE/RL that he will not make further comments on the matter until then.

The other nationalist force, the Social-Democratic Hnchakian Party (SDHK), made clear that it supports Armenian territorial claims to Turkey and believes that Armenia should normalize relations with its historical foe until it recognizes the mass killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide.

“The party rules out the establishment of any diplomatic relations with Turkey until Turkey recognizes the genocide as a great crime against the Armenian people,” said Lyudmila Sargsian, chairwoman of the SDHK’s organization in Armenia. Such recognition should be followed by Turkish land and financial reparations, she said.

Ter-Petrosian subjected political parties espousing such irredentist agenda, notably the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun), to bitter criticism in a speech delivered at a high-level meeting of the HAK on Wednesday. He said that “historical rights” championed by them is not a valid concept in international law these days and that Turkey will never agree to normalize relations with Armenia without precluding the possibility of Armenian territorial claims. The HAK should therefore support a controversial provision of the recently signed Turkish-Armenian agreements that commits Yerevan to recognize Armenia’s existing border with Turkey, said Ter-Petrosian.

“Our party definitely doesn’t share that approach,” Sargsian told RFE/RL. But she said the SDHK, which is the oldest Armenian party, has no intention to break away from the Ter-Petrosian-led alliance of about two dozen opposition groups despite the disagreement.

“We want to have a legitimately elected government,” explained the SDHK leader. “We want to have a democratic country. These are the sublime values around which we cooperate with the HAK.”

http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/1877720.html