Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Hye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Hi gegev
If we are going to depand what Turkey has to say then it means there was no Genocide and actually we have commited Genocide in the first place although vast majority of Historians confirm the fact of the Genocide.

Your Qote: "Doesn’t this mean that w/o the Court reservations they got them all?"
ACCORDING TO THEM maybe yes and unfortunately according to some Armenians who were and still are actually helping Turkey in their propaganda. But according to Armenia it's leasership and many Armenians (including me) didn't have beofre nor have now nor will have in the future. If you want we can discuss the text of the protocol (if it hasn't been discussed before) and we'll see to what extend these stand.


My point, and Serje Sarksian was saying this all along, is that who is or was allowing these points to occure in the first place? And in fact by the court decision we can know for sure that this Government means business they are seriouse and aware. just like Serje was saying us before during and after the signing now we can see concrete steps. And this is a proof to all those who had doupt in Armenian leadership.

I would ask your question back to you. Does everything Turkey says, without getting ratified by the parliament, have force of being legally binding document; to be used in international affairs?
So in the end let's have some faith in thsi leadership though not blind faith if we have something constructuve to say lets say it but let's not show a weak front in front of the Turks if a decission is made let's stick to it if you disagree give ulternatives be civilized don't call this a traitor that a donckey or an idiot because Im sure if you have a better way no one will say no. Moreover if you have no ulternative better not to talk at all.

To end my post just wanna ask Can you see the brilliance here? It is a legally forward step because Armenia actually took the first step to ratify the protocol telling to the world i did the first step of my comitmant whereas Turkey hasn't done anything on contrary they are talking about preconditions. Second had reconfirmed it's initial step that was making some Armenians nervouse and hens gaining some more credibility. Third they showed to Turkey with concrete steps that it can not play with Armenia. We just have to wait and see.

[garod]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

It’s Turkey, Not Armenia, That’s Hindering Rapprochement: Amberin Zaman

Ankara doesn’t stand behind its signature on the Armenian-Turkish Protocols, said Turkey correspondent for The Economist and Taraf columnist, Amberin Zaman, who also happens to be married to U.S. Embassy in Armenia’s Deputy Chief of Mission Joseph Pennington.

“Turkey’s foreign minister Ahmet Davutoglu said the following to his Armenian counterpart, Edward Nalbandian: ‘Stand behind your signature on the Protocol. We expect a display of political will from the Armenian side. Otherwise, a completely new situation will arise.’ However, it’s Turkey who isn’t standing behind their signature,” said Zaman, adding that though there was no clause in the Protocols which referred to Nagorno-Karabakh, Turkey has nevertheless connected that issue with the process of establishing Armenia-Turkey relations.

The Taraf columnist also noted that such a situation wouldn’t have come about if the Protocols were implemented immediately. “If instead of presenting the Protocols in parliament, they were put into effect, this unpleasant ‘new state of affairs’ wouldn’t have come about, and the process wouldn’t have been hindered,” writes Zaman, adding that the final point to this issue was that after the United States, Russia made a statement that the establishment of Armenia-Turkey relations shouldn’t be tied to the resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

Source :http://www.tert.am/en/news/2010/01/22/amberini/

[Alexandros]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

How could Ataturk have supported this in 1915 when he was only a middle ranking officer engaged in the Gallipoli defense under General Limon Van Sanders?

Wrong to the point of almost comical. Is this amateur hour Alexandros? Do you even read any of these articles before posting them. Or is the only requirement being they must be anti-turkish?

I think what the author meant was that Ataturk continued the Genocide against the Christians even after when the Young Turks were starting to lose power...

Ottoman Genocide against Christian Minorities: General Comments and Sources

"It is believed that in Turkey between 1913 and 1922, under the successive regimes of the Young Turks and of Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) , more than 3.5 million Armenian, Assyrian and Greek Christians were massacred in a state-organized and state-sponsored campaign of destruction and genocide, aiming at wiping out from the emerging Turkish Republic its native Christian populations. This Christian Holocaust is viewed as the precursor to the Je_wish Holocaust in WWII. To this day, the Turkish government ostensibly denies having committed this genocide."


— Prof. Israel Charney, President of the IAGS [International Association of Genocide Scholars]

Link

Professor Israel Charney`s biography:

Israel W. Charny is the Editor-in-Chief of the Encyclopedia of Genocide; Executive Director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem; Professor of Psychology & Family Therapy, and Founder and Former Director of the Program for Advanced Studies in Integrative Psychotherapy at the Dept. of Psychology & Martin Buber Center, Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Link

Are you also going to claim that Israel W. Charny is also "Anti-Turkish"?

[gegev]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Hi Gegev how are you man?
your quote: "Some Armenians, including our FM, cried to urge us that there are no preconditions in the protocols, but now they changed their mind: after the constitutional court ruling. Amazing how easily they do it!"
Can you explain to me how did they try to change their mind? what the constitutioanl court just ruled wan't it announced by our President Serje Sarksian the same day the protocols were signed? The infamouse four points go and read that speech please. And even if we assume those points didn't correspond to what the court ruled we can consider this a very clever move bby Armenia when they saw Turkey was bringing in the Karabakh issue from left and right there you go Turkey go and figure. This can be looked in two differnt ways first of all this is a shocking discovary to all those who were crying Serje was a traitor and was selling Armenia Armenian Genocide to Turks and i was one of those who believe that is an impossiblility because of many reaons I can tell you and we saw that this failed as was failed before some people just weren't able to see. Second this proves the competence of our government that in the end they know what they are doing as i said these are people who think of these issues 24/7 let's give them a little credit.

Hello Hye!

Turks protest against the limitations/reservations set by Armenian Constitutional Court, because it, according to their statements, doesn’t allow them:

1) get current Armenian-Turkish borders recognized
2) discussing AG
3) ensuring Azeri territorial “integrity”

Doesn’t this mean that w/o the Court reservations they got them all?

As to Serj Sargsyan’s four points (I agree the points say approximently the same as CC ruling), but:
does everything president says, without getting it ratified by the parliament, have the force of being legally binding document; to be used in international affairs?

[Jos]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkey Is Trying to Dictate to Armenia

Posted GMT 1-21-2010 23:5:34

By Lee Jay Walker

The Seoul Times

If we look at the founding father of modern day Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, then it is clear that he himself supported the destruction of Christianity via the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek Christian genocide of 1915.

Link

How could Ataturk have supported this in 1915 when he was only a middle ranking officer engaged in the Gallipoli defense under General Limon Van Sanders?

Wrong to the point of almost comical. Is this amateur hour Alexandros? Do you even read any of these articles before posting them. Or is the only requirement being they must be anti-turkish?

[Hye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Hi Gegev how are you man?

your quote: "Some Armenians, including our FM, cried to urge us that there are no preconditions in the protocols, but now they changed their mind: after the constitutional court ruling. Amazing how easily they do it!"

Can you explain to me how did they try to change their mind? what the constitutioanl court just ruled wan't it announced by our President Serje Sarksian the same day the protocols were signed? The infamouse four points go and read that speech please. And even if we assume those points didn't correspond to what the court ruled we can consider this a very clever move bby Armenia when they saw Turkey was bringing in the Karabakh issue from left and right there you go Turkey go and figure. This can be looked in two differnt ways first of all this is a shocking discovary to all those who were crying Serje was a traitor and was selling Armenia Armenian Genocide to Turks and i was one of those who believe that is an impossiblility because of many reaons I can tell you and we saw that this failed as was failed before some people just weren't able to see. Second this proves the competence of our government that in the end they know what they are doing as i said these are people who think of these issues 24/7 let's give them a little credit.

[Hye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Quote: "Well eventually our donkey governament is learning how to deal with turks.... "
Please respect yourself first of all and learn to respect others keep your distructive hatred to yourself I don't care if you are used to degrade people who don't agree with you or have different opinon learn not to and maybe then we would be a better nation and we forget about all the misary we have brought to ourselves just because of this. Just because you have just learned how things work this doesn't mean Armenian Goveernemnt didn't know all along. Do you think this all was accedant? just like your mind think such a way don't think that a nation works in the same way. This was a great move by the Armenian government the signing was a great move and so is this. If i were you i would not look in the eye of another Armenian for all the horrible thing you said to the leadrs of OUR country and made them traitor I donno what and now you can't even accept that you were wrong and you are still calling names shame on you. If just you had a brain to think clearly and listened to what our president Serje Sarksian had to say when the protocols were being signed you would realise all along what is the stance of the Armenian govenment but hot headed people like you made a fool of our nation. you have something to say learn to say it in a good manner.

[Alexandros]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkey Is Trying to Dictate to Armenia

Posted GMT 1-21-2010 23:5:34

By Lee Jay Walker

The Seoul Times

The passages of time never heal completely when such crimes have been committed and the aggressor refuses to either admit to such barbaric crimes or makes lame excuses all the time. Despite this, Armenia entered talks with Turkey in the hope of solving long held problems and in the need to stabilize the region.

However, leaders in Turkey are still trying to dictate and they are putting pre-conditions down on a conflict which is outside their remit. This applies to the ongoing crisis in Nagorno-Karabakh and the dispute between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Yet this issue involves Armenia and Azerbaijan and it is not up to Turkey to decide the fate of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Yes, Turkey, just like the Russian Federation and Iran, and other regional nations and nations who are also concerned about this issue, does have a right to be concerned about regional problems but it must be "an honest broker" and not dictatorial. After all, would Turkey be happy if Armenia stated that Turkey must handover land to the Kurds or return land to the Armenians, Assyrians, and other ethnic groups who were "cleansed" in the early 20th century?

It also must be remembered that Turkish military forces are still based throughout northern Cyprus and this is the problem with Turkey. For it appears that the leaders of Turkey suffer from historical amnesia. Also, nationalism is still a potent force within the major institutions of Turkey.

If we look at the founding father of modern day Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, then it is clear that he himself supported the destruction of Christianity via the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek Christian genocide of 1915. Therefore, it is clear that Turkish nationalism and secularism is tainted by its anti-Christian nature and also its anti-Kurdish nature. After all, the nation state of Turkey was about Turkish nationalism and secularism did not protect the religious or ethnic minorities of this diverse nation.

Some people in Turkey play "the religious card" and ply the mantra of Muslim brotherhood. However, this is also hollow because tens of thousands of mainly Muslim Kurds have been killed over the last few decades and many Kurdish villages were also destroyed. Also, the Alevi are a Muslim minority group in Turkey and they also face discrimination and massacres have taken place against them from time to time, for example in 1993 you had the Sivas massacre when radical Sunni Islamists killed many innocent people.

Turning back to recent times the Foreign Minister of Armenia, Eduard Nalbandian, was very frank about the ongoing problem with Turkey. He stated that "Had there been preconditions, we would not have started this process and reached agreements in the first place." Nalbandian continued by stating that "If one of the parties is creating artificial obstacles, dragging out things, that means it is assuming responsibility for the failure of this process," and this can be seen to be a tacit warning to Turkey about the ongoing problems involving Armenia and Turkey.

However, the Prime Minister of Turkey, Tayyip Erdogan, stated in October 2009 that "Turkey cannot take a positive step towards Armenia unless Armenia withdraws from Azerbaijani land [...] if that issue is solved our people and our parliament will have a more positive attitude towards this protocol and this process."

Erdogan also stated that "We will bring the protocol to parliament but parliament has to see the conditions between Azerbaijan and Armenia to decide whether this protocol can be implemented."

Yet according to Alexander Iskandaryan, director of the Caucasus Media Institute in Yerevan, he makes it clear that "The Turkish side needs to play to its domestic audience. Erdogan and other political figures have made such statements often enough [...] It's a fact that neither the word Karabakh nor Azerbaijan appears in the documents that were signed."

Nalbandian also commented in January 2010 that "If Turkey takes a step back, then this will be not only a violation of the agreements with Armenia but will demonstrate that it is not respecting the international community's opinion, with all resulting consequences and the loss of credibility in the first instance." He continued by stating that "Armenia, on the other hand, will -- let's not say win -- not lose anything that we had before this process."

Therefore, outside nations need to put more pressure on Turkey in order for "a new chapter" to begin between Armenia and Turkey. The Nagorno-Karabakh issue is indeed serious, however, this dispute is between Armenia and Azerbaijan and the people of Nagorno-Karabakh. Also, the Nagorno-Karabakh crisis must be resolved by all the parties involved and by both regional and global institutions which have a vested interest in solving this complex problem.

However, the Nagorno-Karabakh crisis is a separate issue and Turkey can't claim otherwise because this issue was outside the signed agreement between Armenia and Turkey.

The genocide of Armenians and other Christians in 1915 is an historical fact and the same applies to massacres which took place before and after this date. Turkey can never erase this history, however, this nation can start "a fresh chapter" which is based on sincerity and genuine friendship with Armenia.

Therefore, do the leaders of Turkey desire friendship and honesty or is nationalism too embedded within the mindset of the political elites of this nation?

Link

[garod]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

The protocols aim to establish relations without preconditions.It is clear that ruling party AKP made lots of mistakes.As being so optimistic about Azerbajian and hoping that Armenia will give up genocide recognition with history commission.Also protocols couldn't take place in the agenda till the Armenian court's decision because of unsolved Kurdish problem and chaotic days of Turkey. Actually court confirmed that it's OK but AKP started to use it as a pretext which is like gift for them in this situation. What a pity. No need to wait for 20 years again.

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Well eventually our donkey governament is learning how to deal with turks....