Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

@Armenian,

I am sad to say that almost every argument you bring is based on fallacy. While I don't claim I am totally fallacy free, my whole point in writing on such boards is to make Armenians aware of a lot of fallacies that we have made inherent, integral and inseparable parts of ourselves:

The fallacies of “Western Armenia”; “South Caucasus”; “Eastern Anatolia”; “Urartian” language; 1.5 million figure; talking about “Azeri” when referring to events before 1918; endlessly waiting that the worthless, non-binding, redundant HR106 pass so that only then we can ask for reparations; constant comparison of the Armenian Genocide with whatever it was that happened to Jews during WWII; the Hitler quote, as if were it to be proved he did not say it, this would change what had happened decades before his alleged uttering it; territorial integrity vs. self determination in Artsakh issue where I constantly ask in vain about a single document that affirms Artsakh within “Azeri” borders; the fallacy that Armenia needs the liberated territories for security reasons where the whole thing is about territory; etc., etc., etc.

You actually place hope on international law? You really think it exists?

It's really sad Hellektor that we Armenians will never learn.

International law is made by and for those who carry the biggest guns.

Do you see your fallacy here? Did you read my posts? Apart from historic and moral matters which you utterly disdain, in all logic, apart from the below criteria, can you cite another, regarding levers that a state may have in defending its rights?

1) Economical

2) Political

3) Military

4) Legal

As long as Armenia exists within present borders, WE WILL NEVER HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO DEVELOP THE FIRST THREE. We will never be able to carry any big guns as you put it. We will eternally remain dependant on hostile Russia for existence. Do you think putting all our bets on Russia will save our asses? Don't you remember what happened in 1917? But oh, you don't give a damn about history, it's only for book nerds. Does this mean we shall never give the Wilsonian arbitration a chance? Why every Armenian gives the same despondent reply to this without even wanting to give it a chance? What else do you propose? The days of the Armenian nation are counted if we are to go on with the current borders. Our nation cannot progress this way where a single fire cracker that goes off in Georgia disrupts our economy. How hard is this to understand?

Fortunately, really fortunately, we have a watertight legal document: the Wilson arbitration, which is final, timeless, irrevocable and incumbent on signatories to enforce it. Why on earth flushing it down the drain without even giving it a go?

...how often do you see articles in the Russian press outlining Russia's historic claims to Crimea? ...How often has 'Russia Today' featured information about Russia's historic claim to Crimea...

...Think of Crimea, ...For Russia, Crimea has immense geopolitical and socioeconomic value ...Have you seen Russia Today reports regarding Crimea? ...Why isn't Moscow reclaiming its historic territory in the Crimea? ...What about Crimea?

Why on Earth should I give a shit about Crimea? It's none of my business and Armenians had no role in what led to its present situation. The “loss” of Crimea for a country that occupies the largest chunk on this planet does not make me cry. Your constant reasoning in my demanding that Russia at least refrain from screwing with history regarding Artsakh, revolves around Crimea. It's like while arresting a thief, he cries, “what about the other thief in the other street?” All you do is justify Russia's despicably hostile attitude where they could simply say, “Karabakh, a largely Armenian populated region was put under “Azeri” administration in Stalin’s time”, this is purely neutral, wholly true and if the tender feelings of genocidal “Azeri” garbage are hurt, then to hell with them.

I care only about my own nation. No matter how Russians screw us you will give them a standing ovation.

I don't want to turn this thread into a war between us over the legitimacy of Russian hypocrisy. The Russia Today history bit is pure bullshit and I WILL NOT HAVE ANY OF IT.

I will not take such blatantly anti-Armenian history fabrication.

You say history is for book nerds, then let them keep their vodka-red noses out of history. How drunk were they in writing that balloneyous historic account? Assyria was never the owner of Artsakh. Around 800 BC, it was called Ardakh, Urdekheh or Atakhuni and was part of the kingdom of Van. The history bit by Russia Today reeks of distortion and is blatantly in denial of the existence of Armenia.

You say the bastards don't want to hurt the feelings of “Azeris”, what about hurting feelings of Armenians? Shouldn't I be hurt hearing such utter rubbish?

If history is not important, then let them just deal with the present situation. Fabricating “Azeri” style distory is the last thing Russia has the moral right to do, given it was they who sacrificed 60% of Republic of Armenia of 1920 (minus four Wilsonian vilayets) to Turks in 1921. They put us through this whole mess and I will reserve the right to be angry with them and NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, I CANNOT, I am UNABLE to think the way you do.

It's all about territory. They all want Armenian territory while whatever it is we have under control is but 10% of historic Armenia. We have to let them know we are not giving any more territory to the genocidal Turk parasite.

There's no way you would tolerate the slightest criticism of Russia's conduct, however gross or brutal. You are mesmerized by Russia, this is not healthy.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Well up until now I for one was thinking that Russia was on our side; but right after this S. Ossetia and Abkhazia business; I am not sure at all. Right away they recognized S. Ossetia's and Abkhazia's independence, yet it's been 17 years and despite the fact that their Stalin just gave it away to the turkish azeris, to this day they don't want to legalize our Artsakh to Armenians. Why? Because the bloody azeris have turkey behind them; but we have no one. Russia Hellektor, does not wish to hurt azeris' feelings because they are afraid of turkey who is right behind their bloody selves. Yet we have no one, that's why they don't care or give a damn about us, about Armenia and Armenians. So in a nut shell I agree with your logic. We have an Armenian saying "yeghounq ounis keloukhet kere".

I hope and wish that Armenians start going back to USA's Wilsonian's borders and Sevri Tashnakir. These are as you say are optimum legal documents drawn by the US and primarily agreed upon, as well as legally all of the Artsaxian lands primarily and throughout our long history has been ours. I also don't care now about Russia's political standing. Why in the world they are finding every unjustified arguments NOT to settle and give Artsax to Armenia? But right away S. Ossetia and Abkhazia they have very conveniently liberated. This is not convincing to me and unjustified.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think we are looking the wrong way, we are again making the same mistake. We are looking to outside powers to come in to help us or save us. you guys are talking about history s let's talk history.

We all know that history repeats itself, so why do we still keep making the same mistakes every time. Why do we keep looking to the outside for help or to save us. Why is that we Armenians do that every single time, let's say from the Persian empire till now. We have looked to the greater powers for help. But there was one king who didn't to that and created the greatest Armenian Kingdom we have ever had. You can even call it an empire. Before tigran or after him there was no man like him.

History has seen the rise of many great empires and kingdoms. How have they grown to their greatness and we haven't? Let me tell ya, they choose to fight they said xxxx of to their enemies. when they freed their own grounds they didn't go to the negotiation table to talk to the loser. No they collected their military and made parades to celebrate their victory. But what do we do we are talking to the losing side what should happen to our land.
They have no rights not even the right of the victorious to negotiate with us.

Do you see Rome, Persia, Alexander, Imperial Russia, the Mongols negotiate with their enemies who lost the war what should happen to the land. No those countries would not do it. They would dictate their own will on their enemies and the losers. Was Rome so much better and stronger than we are now. (I'm talking about the start of Rome not the Empire) No it wasn't but they had men who taught about the republic and not their own pockets. They thought about how they could destroy their enemies. They adapted when they were defeated, They even saw their city being sacked by the Gauls. But they got stronger with every defeat.

Was one of the empires stronger than Hayastan now is? No they weren't they just had great man who thought bigger than any other man. Are we Armenians ready to take our own destiny in our hands. Are we ready to go to the end and risk all? Armenian you are looking to Russia as a guideline and Hellektor you are looking to a document written in a time past. I say xxxx of to the both of them.

Why? you'll ask. I'll tell you why, because we don't need a document to tell us where our country should stop. But we should ask ourself were do we want to stop. Were will the borders of New-Armenia be. Don't we deserve a port at the Mediterranean and the Black-Sea. And about the Russians why should we stay under their rule and not over a hundred years change it. That we will rule them. The Romans have done it, the Americans have done it, the Mongols have done it, the Persians have done it. Why can't we do it?

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Karoth,

To this date I don't know why Armenia did that? For crying out we won the war in Artsakh what else is there????? Why are we sitting around the negotiating tables and seeking help from losers as you say the bigger and the stronger countries? Come to think of it, America belonged to the Indians, not to the Europeans; but they well came and sat on it very nicely.

Unfortunately though, today is not like the times of the Romans; we don't have huge areas of land or armements or army. Armenia is still very young and economically although much better, but not as self sufficient and we don't own a land by any sea to connect us with the rest of the world. But under no circumstances should our government compromise our 7 Artsaxian districts to the enemy. That would be the end of Armenia.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Well up until now I for one was thinking that Russia was on our side; but right after this S. Ossetia and Abkhazia business; I am not sure at all. Right away they recognized S. Ossetia's and Abkhazia's independence, yet it's been 17 years and despite the fact that their Stalin just gave it away to the turkish azeris, to this day they don't want to legalize our Artsakh to Armenians. Why? Because the bloody azeris have turkey behind them; but we have no one. Hellektor, Russia does not wish to hurt azeris' feelings because they are afraid of turkey who is right behind the azeri baboons. Yet we have no one, that's why they don't care or give a damn about us, about Armenia and Armenians. So in a nut shell I agree with your logic. We have an Armenian saying "yeghounq ounis keloukhet kere".

I hope and wish that Armenians start going back to USA's Wilsonian's borders and Sevri Tashnakir. These are as you say are optimum legal documents drawn by the US and primarily agreed upon, as well as legally all of the Artsaxian lands primarily and throughout our long history has been ours. I also don't care now about Russia's political standing. Why in the world they are finding every unjustified arguments NOT to settle and give Artsax to Armenia? But right away S. Ossetia and Abkhazia they have very conveniently liberated. This is not convincing to me and unjustified.

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Russia Hellektor, does not wish to hurt azeris' feelings because they are afraid of turkey who is right behind their bloody selves.

Russia is not afraid of anyone (let alone chickenshit Turk vermin), they never have been throughout history, not once, and that's one great point of Russian character. They simply cannot care less about blackhead Armenians. They don't give a damn; they never have and never will.

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

...Hellektor you are looking to a document written in a time past. I say xxxx of to the both of them.

You did not read my post carefully, otherwise you wouldn't say this. I explain once more. Please pay attention:

The Wilson arbitration is final, timeless, irrevocable and incumbent on signatories to enforce it. We cannot change it, Turks cannot change it, no one can, according to INTERNATIONAL LAW.

Sentimental issues are one thing but with an Armenia within the present borders we cannot enlarge our territory according to our liking. If you want Cilicia, you'll have to get the Wilsonian Armenia first, which will bring Turkey one step closer to disintegration, bury pan-Turkism forever and will give Armenia the possibility to grow 1) economically, 2) politically and 3) militarily, the prerequisites to conquering back more lands.

Why? you'll ask. I'll tell you why, because we don't need a document to tell us where our country should stop. But we should ask ourself were do we want to stop. Were will the borders of New-Armenia be. Don't we deserve a port at the Mediterranean and the Black-Sea. And about the Russians why should we stay under their rule and not over a hundred years change it. That we will rule them. The Romans have done it, the Americans have done it, the Mongols have done it, the Persians have done it. Why can't we do it?

Because we do not have the necessary levers for it. Apart from historic and moral rights which are useless in the real world, these levers come in four categories and there's nothing outside these that will allow us to do it. Please pay attention:

1) Economical

2) Political

3) Military

4) Legal

As long as Armenia exists within the present borders, WE WILL NEVER HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO DEVELOP 1), 2) and 3). Do you get this? Fortunately we have the 4) legal lever: the Wilson arbitration. If you say fuck off to this, you say bye, bye to Armenia.

If you dismiss the Wilson arbitration, you'll be left with NOTHING to take a single nanometer Armenian territory back from the genocidal Turk, because you will lose the only lever (i.e. the legal one) you got. Turkey will never recognize the AG, so don't place your bets on reparations after recognition. We do not need any recognition to get Wilsonian Armenia back. This is purely a legal matter and has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide. Capice?

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

First of all, I would like to say that I think you are a great patriot and I have great respect for you and the work you do.

However...

@Armenian, I am sad to say that almost every argument you bring is based on fallacy. While I don't claim I am totally fallacy free, my whole point in writing on such boards is to make Armenians aware of a lot of fallacies that we have made inherent, integral and inseparable parts of ourselves: The fallacies of “Western Armenia”; “South Caucasus”; “Eastern Anatolia”; “Urartian” language; 1.5 million figure; talking about “Azeri” when referring to events before 1918; endlessly waiting that the worthless, non-binding, redundant HR106 pass so that only then we can ask for reparations; constant comparison of the Armenian Genocide with whatever it was that happened to Jews during WWII; the Hitler quote, as if were it to be proved he did not say it, this would change what had happened decades before his alleged uttering it; territorial integrity vs. self determination in Artsakh issue where I constantly ask in vain about a single document that affirms Artsakh within “Azeri” borders; the fallacy that Armenia needs the liberated territories for security reasons where the whole thing is about territory; etc., etc., etc.

What fallacy? What are you talking about? Please present your argument more clearly.

Do you see your fallacy here? Did you read my posts? Apart from historic and moral matters which you utterly disdain, in all logic, apart from the below criteria, can you cite another, regarding levers that a state may have in defending its rights? 1) Economical 2) Political 3) Military 4) Legal

I don't like repeating myself so please pay attention: The "Legal" part does NOT exist in real world politics. Thus, you are pursuing it in vain. The simple fact that I have to reveal this to you is in itself revealing. As long as you have the "Military" lever and/or the "Economic" lever you can - create or manipulate - the "Political" and "Legal" lever. It's that simple.

International law is created by and for those who carry the biggest guns and have the biggest wallets.

When you mercilessly beat someone on the battlefield you can use your "Legal" arguments as an excuse for doing what you did, as a form of a public relations tool. Legal arguments and history can also play a role in conditioning the mindset of the masses. So, in the end, "history" and "international law" does have a purpose, but not in the way you think it does.

As long as Armenia exists within present borders, WE WILL NEVER HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO DEVELOP THE FIRST THREE. We will never be able to carry any big guns as you put it. We will eternally remain dependant on hostile Russia for existence.

I totally agree.

Do you think putting all our bets on Russia will save our asses?

Staying close to Moscow is our ONLY choice and yes it will save our asses and it has saved our asses. Any augment against this would be utterly stupid. From running the nuclear power plant in Armenia, to supplying our military with modern weapons, from their billion dollar plus annual trade with us to their cheap natural gas supplies, Russia is the only political entity on earth that has kept Armenia afloat all these years.

Despite what they may think about our hairy "blackasses" Moscow is our savior in the Caucasus. When you wake up from your "Legal" dreams you may see this cold hard fact.

And believe it or not, Iran is not a real choice

Don't forget, your president Ahmadinejad fled Armenia just before he was to visit to the Armenian Genocide memorial at Tsitsernakapert. At the very least, Russian officials give us that respect.

Don't you remember what happened in 1917?

Yes, I do, and this argument is getting very-very lame. It was "Bolshevism" not Russia. Remember 1916? Remember how Russian-Armenian forces had advanced as far as Van? Nonetheless, ethnic Russians suffered more under Bolshevism than any other ethnic group. You as a student of history should realize this.

But oh, you don't give a damn about history, it's only for book nerds.

Stop being silly, Hellektor. It's obvious you did not understand my insinuation. Personally, I care a lot about history and I'm a student of history. But I also realize that history plays absolutely no role in international politics. In other words, unlike you, I don't live in a dream world.

Does this mean we shall never give the Wilsonian arbitration a chance?

Who exactly is going to give you that chance, Hellektor? United Nations? Europe? USA? Russia? China? Iran? You can give the "Wilsonian arbitration" a chance when you bring Turkey to its knees militarily and/or economically. So, tell me, when do you think this will happen? This is what I mean when I say these types of a debate are silly and unbecoming of adults, especially adults who study history...

Fortunately, really fortunately, we have a watertight legal document: the Wilson arbitration, which is final, timeless, irrevocable and incumbent on signatories to enforce it. Why on earth flushing it down the drain without even giving it a go?

OK. Give it a go, Hellektor? Take Ara Papian and Armen Ayvazian with you and go to Yerevan and present your proposal to the foreign ministry there. Then you can also go to the UN, go to Moscow, go to Washington DC, go to Brussels... tell them that you can legally and historically prove that Armenia has rights to the eastern half of Turkey.

But make sure you go to these places with a very-very good sense of humor and thick skin because they will all be laughing at you. You can use the Wilsonian arbitration only 'after' you somehow invade Turkey and reclaim what's yours... You can then and 'only then' use the document in question as a legal/historic excuse or argument for what you did. Until that day comes, however, the document is only a piece of paper.

So, the document has to be analyzed, preserved and disseminated, however, not for the reasons you mentioned.

Why on Earth should I give a shit about Crimea? It's none of my business and Armenians had no role in what led to its present situation. The “loss” of Crimea for a country that occupies the largest chunk on this planet does not make me cry. Your constant reasoning in my demanding that Russia at least refrain from screwing with history regarding Artsakh, revolves around Crimea.

Because the situation regarding "Crimea" totally undermines your weak arguments against Moscow and makes you look politically ignorant. You are simply refusing to look at these matters objectively, rationally and from a political perspective. The larger a nation is more problems, bigger problems, it has. Crimea is as important to Russia and Artsakh is important to Armenia. You keep complaining that Russia wont 'give' us Artsakh (as if its a simple gift) yet you ignore that fact that due to sensitive geopolitical concerns Russia is not politically able to demand many things that it also desperately needs. And you totally ignore the fact that Moscow had to go head-to-head with the West over the territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, territories that essentially belong to it.

In realty, however, Moscow 'has' given us Artsakh, in a certain sense, and Moscow does keep Turkey out of the Caucasus. But you want/demand VIP treatment from the Kremlin. I know what will make you happy. Maybe Russia should send its tanks into Baku and level the city because Armenians are pro-Russian and Christian. That would be nice, no?

Anyway, let's also accept the fact that the main reason why you in Iran are not getting bombed by tactical nuclear weapons today is - Moscow. I suggest you write a thank you letter to the Kremlin.

You know what's scary, Hellektor?

Let me tell you. Imagine the Russian military did not threaten Turkey with a Third World War in 1993-1994 when Turkey was getting ready to invade Armenia. Just imagine what would have happened, Hellektor... Just imagine you sitting in Tehran writing "Legal" arguments when Yerevan is leveled by Turkish artillery. Imagine what would have happened to Eurasia had Putin not cleaned house in Russia. Imagine what Neocons and Zionist and Pan-Turkists and Wahhabi Islamists would be doing today in the region had Russia still been the mercy of the West. Just imagine Hellektor...

I suggest you say a looooooooooooooooooooong prayer for the existence of an independent Kremlin every time you go to sleep at nights.

All you do is justify Russia's despicably hostile attitude where they could simply say, “Karabakh, a largely Armenian populated region was put under “Azeri” administration in Stalin’s time”, this is purely neutral, wholly true and if the tender feelings of genocidal “Azeri” garbage are hurt, then to hell with them.

What la-la land are you living in? What "hostile" attitude, Hellektor? Do you know what "hostile" means? I suggest you call Saakashvili and find out. I reiterate, without Moscow there would be no Armenia today.

It's very disappointing that you keep treating this matter as if its a petty family dispute.

I care only about my own nation. No matter how Russians screw us you will give them a standing ovation.

You're begin silly again, Hellektor.

I don't want to turn this thread into a war between us over the legitimacy of Russian hypocrisy. The Russia Today history bit is pure bullshit and I WILL NOT HAVE ANY OF IT. I will not take such blatantly anti-Armenian history fabrication. You say history is for book nerds, then let them keep their vodka-red noses out of history. How drunk were they in writing that balloneyous historic account?

But tell me, what in it was pure bullshit? The information about Artsakh was very sober and politically balanced.

Assyria was never the owner of Artsakh. Around 800 BC, it was called Ardakh, Urdekheh or Atakhuni and was part of the kingdom of Van.

Assyrian historians would disagree with you. They occupied and administered the land, thus owned it, for a very long time. Assyria was one of the owners of that piece of real estate that belongs to us Armenians.

The history bit by Russia Today reeks of distortion and is blatantly in denial of the existence of Armenia.

You're being silly again.

You say the bastards don't want to hurt the feelings of “Azeris”, what about hurting feelings of Armenians? Shouldn't I be hurt hearing such utter rubbish?

Feelings? You actually think it's about feelings, a human emotion? I keep saying to you they don't want to ruin their already fragile relations with Baku. To Moscow, Baku is just as important as Armenia, if not more.

There's no way you would tolerate the slightest criticism of Russia's conduct, however gross or brutal. You are mesmerized by Russia, this is not healthy.

Again, you are approaching this emotionally. First of all, I don't see any anti-Armenian behavior coming out of Moscow. And yes, I am mesmerized by Russia? I am very much in awe of what the Russian Federation has managed to do in recent years. My approach to Russia is from a human perspective as well as an Armenian perspective.

Anyway, just do yourself a favor, take a deep breath and imagine the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Persian Gulf region and the Caucasus without the existence of the Russian Federation today.

Please try it.

What's not "healthy" is living in an angry dream world.

[skhara]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Why? Because the bloody azeris have turkey behind them; but we have no one. Hellektor, Russia does not wish to hurt azeris' feelings because they are afraid of turkey who is right behind the azeri baboons.

Georgia has US, NATO, West-Europe on their side. Make no mistake about it, if Azerbaijan approached Moscow the same way that lunatic in Tbillisi approached them and Abkhazia and S Ossetia -- there would be a whole different story in how Moscow approached Artsakh.

[skhara]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

The two peoples in question have historically been very pro-Russian.

That's not a true statement actually. Abkhazians just like all the north caucasians fought very bloody bitter wars with the Russian empire. By the way, I think the turkish involvement in Abkhazia in the last couple of decades have really been Abkhazians who fled to the Ottoman empire during those wars.

It is just an interesting irony how things worked out. Abkhazians bitterly fought Russian imperialism and yet the Georgians tried to erase their nationhood and they reached to Russia for salvation.

The pro-Russianness of Abkhazians is just over a decade old.