Armenian-Turkish Relations

[seruven]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Don't you have any Armenian forum member living in Turkey who can comment on Turkey? Because your comments are way far away from the reality.

It's just media talk aimed at embellishing the image of Turkey

Embellish the image of Turks to Turks? The interview was published in a national newspaper with a low circulation*. Had it been published in an American or European newspaper, you might have had a point. If you trace the link given by KarotheGreat, you will see the interview is taken from an Armenian site and the translation to English is made by Ara Topouzian.
Of course, someone can say that the interview was "intentionally" not published in a mainstream newspaper, translated to English by an officer from The Foreign Affairs (with the alias Ara Topouzian) and being consistently chain-mailed to Armenian mail lists ("..and Turks discover internet!"). I admit that I have no evidence to refute this (or such a similar) story.

One might ask how come the tables turned so quickly and the Turkish press suddenly became so friendly and oh, understanding.

I wish Turkish press had really become friendly and understanding towards Armenia. However, only some minority is friendly and understanding, and that didn't happen all of a sudden as you propose, but rather it took decades.

I am repeating myself, but anyway: No nation is homogeneous, including Turks!
Ideas of the interviewee are certainly against what the majority of the people think. However, he reflects common thoughts of a fraction of Turkish intelligentsia.

As a footnote, in that newspaper you can see many interviews and articles related to Armenian Issue contrasting with the state's official views. "Taraf" was founded last year by Turkish liberal intellectuals. Even two of its columnists are Armenian: Markar Esayan (also one of the editors of Taraf) and Etyen Mahçupyan who is at the same time executive director of Agos (ever heard of it?).

*curious ones, you can reach the sales reports from here:

http://www.medyatava.com/tiraj.asp

Regards,
S.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Let me ask you seruven, do you accept and recognize that Armenians were systimatically killed by the ottoman/young turk government starting in 1915?

[numerodos]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

whats that got to do with what seruven is saying?

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

whats that got to do with what seruven is saying?

I'd like to see if he is one of the informed and educated turks or the 99.999% out there who either deny the Genocide, no nothing of it, or have never heard about it.

[seruven]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armanen, you are digressing from the topic. I think this interview is much worth to be discussed than my opinions.

Anyway, if you had read my first post in that forum, you would have had a sense about my position.
http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=11524
As an Armenian, you only listen to historians and politicians from "your side" and automatically determine your position towards the "genocide". As a Turk, things are not that simple. Everybody tells different stories and as a simple citizen, I am not capable of determining whether what happened to Armenians was a "genocide", "massacre" or "tragedy".
You give great importance to the term used, but I don't. Whatever we call it, hundreds of thousands of Armenians died during the WW1 period (That's a fact agreed upon in Turkey. "Millions" is doubtable). That's the point.

do you accept and recognize that Armenians were systimatically killed by the ottoman/young turk government starting in 1915?

It's beyond my ability to fully understand what happened in the history. "What was the Ittihadists' goal when they forced Armenians to migrate? Given the conditions, didn't they know that Armenians would perish? Does a collapsing Empire have the right of moving one of its nations? How many times have such an act taken in the history? Were the Ittihadists right about their concerns about Armenians or were they morbidly paranoiac? What's the historical basis of the "Armenian Genocide"? What acts will be called genocide and who has the right to determine whether this term will be used or not?"
Have you ever tried to put yourself in to the shoes of a Turk?

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Ok then for fun, lets try this. Do you accept and recognize that joos were systimatically killed by the Nazi government during ww2? And would you call this a "genocide"?

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Ok then for fun, lets try this. Do you accept and recognize that joos were systimatically killed by the Nazi government during ww2? And would you call this a "genocide"?

You're wasting time.

A Typical Dialogue a Typical Armenian Will Have With a Typical Turk

A typical Turk is going to start by asking: What is the problem with your people regarding us Turks?

A typical Armenian is going to reply: Turks persecuted their loyal Armenian subjects to the point of extinction within Anatolia.

The Turk is going to reply: No way, your people had a great life living under the progressive Ottoman Turks.

The Armenian is going to respond: There was a systematic genocide of the Armenian population within Anatolia and Cilicia by the Turkish authorities during the First World War.

The Turk is going to reply: There was a major war at the time and many people died on both sides. Turks suffered just as much as Armenians. So please, let's all move ahead in our lives. Besides which, that was so long ago...

The Armenian is going to respond: No. No. No. You are not being fair nor honest, a lot more Armenians died at the time. What happened to Armenians back then was absolutely horrible, my grandparents still talk about it to this day.

The Turk is going to reply: Well, if Turks overreacted at the time, it's only because you Armenians were helping the Russians and stabbing us Turks in the back.

The Armenian is going to respond: Not all Armenians were helping the Russians, only a few nationalist revolutionaries who were seeking independence. Why did Turks kill or deport the entire Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia?

The Turk is going to reply: Well, you know what, I was not there. I don’t know what exactly happened. In any case, please allow me to say that I am very sorry all that stuff happened to your people. I am really-really sorry, but we Turks are different now, times are different now, let's move ahead in our lives, it will benefit us all.

The Armenian is going to respond: Yes, let's move ahead. But it is essential that your government officially apologizes and begins to implement friendly policies toward the Armenian nation. Also, why is your government openly helping the Azeris against us? That problem in Nagorno Karabagh should have nothing to do with Armenia's relations with Turkey.

The Turk is going to reply: As far as the Nagorno Karabagh issue is concerned, we support the territorial integrity of all nations, including that of our cousins, the Azeris. Clearly, you Armenians are the aggressors there. However, I do not want to talk about that problem right now. Let's get back to 'our' issue. Turks will not officially apologize because they are afraid of land and money compensations. You have to understand that Turkey is not a rich nation and we are not about to give away our lands.

At this point, there are some Armenian low-lives who would reply: Very well, but please, even if it's some kind of a token recognition and compensation, it needs to be made in order to appease the masses who are still suffering from a post-traumatic conditions brought upon by the genocide.

And at this point, the Turk will get encouraged by the Armenian response and say: My government has similar problem with the Kurds and the Greek. Thus, no such compensation can be acceptable for us Turks. Please people, accept our sincere apologies and let's move a head in life, we don't have another choice.

The Armenian low-lives will respond: Well, ok, as long as we can be good neighbors and have no more problems, we will accept your apology and we will look forward to being your neighbors.

And at this point, Armenian nationalists will tell Turks: Go to hell, you and your Azeri cousins, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians can never again live side-by-side. What's more, as long as the Turkish government occupies our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow, there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

The point is, discussions about the Armenian Genocide with Turks are senseless exercises in futility. Such debates, more often than not, degenerate to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one: There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished. All crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works, that is how human behavior works.

Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is essentially subservient to the first type): Just wants to whitewash and make excuses for what happened back then and wants us to move forward.

I far as I am concerned, its simple: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime. Nevertheless, this cannot happen by trying to "reconcile" with those who still wish us dead. Speak to me about reconciliation with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk.

As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - NOT US. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as explaining and convincing anything to any moron that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its native lands and today - there are none. It's that simple. Therefore, I do not want to engage in verbal gymnastics by discussing "why did it happen," "how did it happen," "what was the exact number of dead," "who was responsible," "how do we move forward..."

This man in Yerevan says it best:

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Haha, Armenian. I knew you would post this.

The above poster, seruven has been better behaved than the majority of turks who visit here and spew their absurd notions. Seeing how he replied, now I would like to see how he responds to the question on joos.

More or less he isn't in the .00001% of turks that I was thinking he might belong to.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You give great importance to the term used, but I don't.

Then we will call you Nomadic barbarian. You call yourself 'Turk' and give great importance to the term used, but I don't (just an example to show how significant a term can be in relation to reality).

Whatever we call it, hundreds of thousands of Armenians died during the WW1 period (That's a fact agreed upon in Turkey. "Millions" is doubtable). That's the point.

I don't even have to answer:

It's beyond my ability to fully understand what happened in the history.

What acts will be called genocide and who has the right to determine whether this term will be used or not?

Besides all the eyewitness accounts I can provide, the man who created the term 'genocide' for the international legal community, Raphael Lemkin, said that what happened to the Armenians during WW1 is a typical example of genocide. Of course, we don't expect you to pay attention to historical or legal authorities regarding this matter, since you claimed "Its beyond my ability to fully understand what happened in the history". At least when you say something like that, don't turn around and imply you know something by passing judgements on well-documented events by casting nothing but doubt on them.

[seruven]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armanen, Armenian, ArmSurvival,
You all three are practising demagogy and intentionally digressing the topic. You prefer to question my ideas about the Holocaust or claim that it is nonsense to talk to a Turk (as a puerile dialogue being your proof) instead of discussing thoughts of a former Turkish diplomat whose thoughts are obviously much more valuable than mine. A worthy quotation:

Allegations of
genocide have become a vehicle of survival for the Diaspora. The
allegation of genocide has become an industry; it has created its own
people, entrepreneurs, politicians, artists, and money mechanisms

I believe that's the reason why I do disturb you. Maybe you simply want Turks to piss off in order to maintain the status quo in Turkish-Armenian relations (same goal with Turkish status quo supporters).

I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices

Neither I do. In my very first post, I stated that I consider forums as futile as they somehow become an instrument in "the dialogue between the blind and the deaf" (as we say in Turkey). Noone listens to or tries to understand his/her opponent, but everybody recites what he/she already knows.

There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished

IMO, what Turks need is not punishment but facing the reality and a self-cleansing.

Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide

I want to presume that you have spent many years among Turks or better lived in Turkey for some time. If not, I don't understand why you are so eager to make certain generalizations regarding a nation which you don't know.

just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its native lands and today - there are none

None?? Bit by bit, you provoke your brothers/sisters.

It's that simple

With my limited experiences regarding life, I can say "nothing is simple".

@ArmSurvival

"Millions" is doubtable

I was trying to depict what's agreed upon in Turkey and what's not.

You call yourself 'Turk' and give great importance to the term used

Actually I don't give such a great importance to the term as long as you don't replace it with an insult. As for me, all this nation thing is theoretically nonsense (though I am a patriot).

Listen guys, I'm just here to show some good intention and probably will give up writing in the forum in the near future. You may perceive Turks as a monolith, but we are not. When I registered to this forum and checked the posts written by Turks, I feel ashamed and annoyed. This was not only due to their inadequate manners, but also due to their political stand points which I strongly oppose. It seems Turks regularly register to this forum and I don't want them to read only posts sent by extreme Turkish nationalists.
In my first post, I tried to express my deep sorrow about "our loss" in 1915, but couldn't receive any meaningful response. Now, in an irrelavant thread, I encounter with your automatic hostile attitude. How very constructive..