Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I don't quite understand why any ARF member would take offense to what Armen said, especially since that is more or less the ideology of the ARF. Why not change things around in their life and make a connection with Armenia, no matter how small. Then again it's easier to talk then do, and most people are full of s*it.

[Hye_Psycho]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

i dont consider the modern state of Armenia as my homeland, so i respectfully reject that notion of being 'armenian'.

my homeland is under foreign occupation.

[Lucin]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

i dont consider the modern state of Armenia as my homeland, so i respectfully reject that notion of being 'armenian'.

my homeland is under foreign occupation.

This is ridiculous. Had it not been occupied/ destroyed, it would have been a part of the current Armenia today, it would not have been a separate "country".

I have heard this numerous times, from Western Armenians. This is regrettable.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

i dont consider the modern state of Armenia as my homeland, so i respectfully reject that notion of being 'armenian'.

my homeland is under foreign occupation.

Yeah, I want to smack you and all other Armenians who think this way.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I have heard this numerous times, from Western Armenians. This is regrettable.

Yes, this was what I was talking about. I don't know if he was being sarcastic or not, but his feelings regarding modern day Armenia is not all that uncommon, especially within the Armenian community from the Middle East. These people in question are more Kurdish/Turkish/Arabic than Armenian. As a result, they don't have anything in common with "Hayastantsi" Armenians. As a result, they look down on them. They consider all the Hayastantsi men crooks and all the women, whores. These people are happy being "spyurqahai" and would never set foot in Hayastan. As a matter of fact, they take pride in being called disporan Armenians. They claim their "Hayastan" is in Western Armenia, not the current "Russakan Hayastan." These disgusting people are not a majority, but one does come across quite a bit of them in the so-called Armenian crowd from Syria and Lebanon, particularly in the ARF community. I am from Lebanon, I have been involved in the Armenian community most of my life, I have been an ARF-er. I have seen firsthand these types of individuals, even amongst my relatives. Anyone here that says otherwise either does not know Middle Eastern Armenians too well, or they are full of shit.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

No, Mr. gul, It Was True Then; It Is True Now!

By Avedis Kevorkian, Philadelphia, PA, 6 September 2008

The world missed an anniversary--the 132nd--in May of this year. Which is nothing new, it has been "missing" this anniversary for 131 years.



I refer to the "massacres of the Bulgarians," in 1876. It was big in those days, and some politicians got their unmentionables in a twist about it. But, like all matters concerning Turkish atrocities, it was short-lived.



However, one politician--"Statesman," really, since he is among the last to truly deserve the title--did something. He was William E. Gladstone, who was later to take up the cause of another people who were victims of Turkish atrocities. Not satisfied with speaking against it, he wrote a damning pamphlet which "flew off the presses," and sold upwards of 40,000 in just a few days. It is said only the much-anticipated "Childe Harold," by Lord Byron, earlier in the century, sold more copies faster.



One writer, André Maurois, was to write of the massacres: ". . .the Turks, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity. . .there was not a criminal in European jails, not a cannibal. . .whose indignation would not rise at the recital of what had been done." I am indebted to Prof. Vahakn Dadrian for that quote.



But, there was another writer who also noted the event.



Readers may get an insight into the workings of what passes for my mind, when I try to explain why I am, now, delving into history--and literature. Earlier this year--or late last year--after Ankara had successfully defeated HR106 (the ill-fated Genocide-recognition bill, which the Dummycrats in Washington mishandled badly), Turkey’s President Abdullah Gul joyfully announced the death of the measure by saying something along the lines of "We Turks would never do such things [Genocide], and we Turks have never done these things."



I knew from my knowledge of history that the Turks have always done such things. Over the centuries, they have, in one way or other, mistreated every one of the minorities who have had the misfortune to be a subject people. To their credit, the Turks are non-discriminating equal-opportunity murderers--they have killed Christians, Hindus, xxxs, and Muslims. But, I wander.



I recalled that Fyodor Dostoyevsky had something to say about the Bulgarian massacres. It has taken me this long to stop pushing the note around my desk and to seek it out. Give me a break, Folks, it's a long book.



It is the cynical brother Ivan Karamazov speaking to his holy brother Alexey, in "The Brothers Karamazov," first published in 1880:



"By the way, not so long ago a Bulgarian in Moscow told me," Ivan went on, as though not bothering to listen to his brother, "of the terrible atrocities committed all over Bulgaria by the Turks and Circassians who were afraid of a general uprising of the Slav population. They burn, kill, violate women and children, nail their prisoners' ears to fences and leave them like that till next morning when they hang them, and so on--it's impossible to imagine it all. And, indeed, people sometimes speak of man's 'bestial' cruelty, but this is very unfair and insulting to the beasts: a beast can never be so cruel as a man, so ingeniously, so artistically cruel. A tiger merely gnaws and tears to a piece, that’s all he knows. It would never occur to him to nail men's ears to a fence and leave him like that overnight, even if he were able to do it. These Turks, incidentally, seemed to derive a voluptuous pleasure from torturing children, cutting a child out of a mother's womb with a dagger and tossing babies up in the air and catching them on a bayonet before the eyes of their mothers. It was doing it before the eyes of their mothers that made it so enjoyable. But one incident I found particularly interesting. Imagine a baby in the arms of a trembling mother, surrounded by Turks who had just entered her house. They are having great fun: they fondle the baby, they laugh to make it laugh and they are successful: the baby laughs. At that moment the Turk points a pistol four inches from the baby's face. The baby laughs happily, stretches out his little hands to grab the pistol, when suddenly the artist pulls the trigger in the baby's face and blows his brains out. . . . Artistic, isn't it? Incidentally, I'm told the Turks are fond of sweets."



(Isn't that last sentence a gem, an absolute gem? That's the mark of a genius!)



Just think of the workings of the writer's mind--Dostoyevsky's that is. He wants to put words in the mouth of a brother who is trying to shake the faith of his younger brother. Does he use abstract arguments? He does not. He refers to an actual event, he refers to actual barbarisms perpetrated by one people on another people. Coming out four years after the events, the book's reference was fresh in the minds of the readers. And, therefore, they could relate to Ivan's argument, but also appreciate the basic goodness and innocence of Alexey.



And, also, forever give the lie to any statement by any Turk (and apologists) denying the inherent evil that is the Turkish mind.



Now, I can finally throw away the note.

http://www.keghart.com/op115.htm

[Lucin]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Yes, this was what I was talking about. I don't know if he was being sarcastic or not, but his feelings regarding modern day Armenia is not all that uncommon, especially within the Armenian community from the Middle East. These people in question are more Kurdish/Turkish/Arabic than Armenian. As a result, they don't have anything in common with "Hayastantsi" Armenians. As a result, they look down on them. They consider all the Hayastantsi men crooks and all the women, whores.

Criticizing the unethical behaviour of some Haystantsis is one thing, but turning your back on the country because of this and saying it is not my homeland, my country is under foreign occupation, etc. is the worst in my opinion.

These people are happy being "spyurqahai" and would never set foot in Hayastan. As a matter of fact, they take pride in being called disporan Armenians. They claim their "Hayastan" is in Western Armenia, not the current "Russakan Hayastan." These disgusting people are not a majority, but one does come across quite a bit of them in the so-called Armenian crowd from Syria and Lebanon, particularly in the ARF community. I am from Lebanon, I have been involved in the Armenian community most of my life, I have been an ARF-er. I have seen firsthand these types of individuals, even amongst my relatives. Anyone here that says otherwise either does not know Middle Eastern Armenians too well, or they are full of shit.

Yes, I have heard it mainly from Libanahais.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

i dont consider the modern state of Armenia as my homeland, so i respectfully reject that notion of being 'armenian'.

my homeland is under foreign occupation.

you sound like my father... He's a Bolsahye and says Turkey is more his country than Armenia.

[garod]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

It is normal that some Armenians think that their home is not Armenia.

Today there is an interview of journalist Cenk Başlamış with Serge Sargsyan on Turkish newspaper Milliyet. Headline ; Yerevan : We have no territorial claims. I think that some nationalists will be disturbed due to this kind of explanations.

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/Dunya/Hab...niz%20var%20mi

[aray]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I agree. Armen's work is crucially important for the political health and well being of the Armenian state. Without a healthy Armenian state there is no such thing as a Hai Dat. In my opinion, any money spent/donated in the diaspora is money wasted.

On most issues Armen sounds just like you. Karokha zuyq ekhpayrnereq?


Can somebody post the link to the site where we can contribute to Ararat Center?