Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Dashnak]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

OK, lets not "jeapordise what little there left of our homeland", we cant fight for it as we are week LETS JUST GIVE IT TO TURKS WITHOUT FIGHT, becaus our big brother Russia demands it !

xxxx you and xxxx Russia!

We are in this deep xxxx (with this Protocols) mostly becaus Russia wants to pass their pipeline by turkey and turks own russian ass right now.

Look at this Russian/Soviet/Communist PISS of propaganda LOL

Well said, brother!

I would just add that IMHO this “Haykakan” character and others like him are typical brainwashed sorry-ass leftovers of the Soviet/Russian propaganda machine. But you know what is really sad? That even after almost 20 years since the end of the Judeo-Bolshevik Empire (USSR) these zombies are still infected with the virus! Even after Artsakh’s Liberation, even after martyrdom of thousands of our brothers... …How much more blood does the Armenian Nation need to shed to convince these zombies that no one but WE (the Armenian people) decide our future. WE are not scared of Russia, WE are not scared of NATO, and WE are not scared of the turkchi scum around us. If it’s needed then WE will fight all of them, each and every one of them. If they dare to even try to take away even an inch of our lands, if they keep deny the Genocide... ...they will burn in their own cities, be it in Moscow, in Washington, in Brussels or in Istanbul – they will burn like in hell if they dare touch Armenia! And until they kill ALL of us (every single one of us in the world) they will not win! They will never win!

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Well said, brother!

I would just add that IMHO this “Haykakan” character and others like him are typical brainwashed sorry-ass leftovers of the Soviet/Russian propaganda machine. But you know what is really sad? That even after almost 20 years since the end of the Judeo-Bolshevik Empire (USSR) these zombies are still infected with the virus! Even after Artsakh’s Liberation, even after martyrdom of thousands of our brothers... …How much more blood does the Armenian Nation need to shed to convince these zombies that no one but WE (the Armenian people) decide our future. WE are not scared of Russia, WE are not scared of NATO, and WE are not scared of the turkchi scum around us. If it’s needed then WE will fight all of them, each and every one of them. If they dare to even try to take away even an inch of our lands, if they keep deny the Genocide... ...they will burn in their own cities, be it in Moscow, in Washington, in Brussels or in Istanbul – they will burn like in hell if they dare touch Armenia! And until they kill ALL of us (every single one of us in the world) they will not win! They will never win!

The revolution needs to start in Washington to make the world see that we mean business and we will not back down to Genocide deniers. Holding the world hostage is the only way we will ever get worldwide coverage. Fu@k the tit for tat with the politicians, we need to take it to the streets if (when) it comes down to it. I will start by lighting my desk here at work on fire... gladly!!

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Had Armenia not had the strong ties they have with Russia: CSTO, Russian military bases in Armenia, Armenia`s geostrategic position in Caucuses...etc Turkey would had invaded Armenia a long time ago.It was Russia that stopped Turkey to invade Armenia back in 1992/1993.

Yes it whose Alex,this people comment based only in there personal opinion and the guidance of a small opposition,they have no idea of the geopolitical situation and are not able to see it,they keep posting of how Russian dont care for Armenia which i can describe only as WTF! then they say we surrender to turks again WTF!
Let aside the comment for ARF like its some kind angel operation saying that they lost cause bigger and richer parties were competing,well let me tell you that ARF is the biggest partie in armenia that operate in more that 140 countries so if its about money they would have won not mention the money they would get from diaspora.

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Yes it whose Alex,this people comment based only in there personal opinion and the guidance of a small opposition,they have no idea of the geopolitical situation and are not able to see it,they keep posting of how Russian dont care for Armenia which i can describe only as WTF! then they say we surrender to turks again WTF!
Let aside the comment for ARF like its some kind angel operation saying that they lost cause bigger and richer parties were competing,well let me tell you that ARF is the biggest partie in armenia that operate in more that 140 countries so if its about money they would have won not mention the money they would get from diaspora.

ARF do not bye votes as other so-called "parties" do...

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I never said about buying votes u said that,dont put words in my mouth that i never said capish? if u cant understand me is ur problem.

So the only use that ARF could think to do with money is to bride people?Good for ur thinking.

I dont see why u are not banned what is the matter with the mods, obviously u have big mouth and ur post are full of speculations and made stuff.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Opposition Party Wants Referendum On Turkish-Armenian Deal


A major Armenian opposition party on Thursday rejected as sellout the newly publicized agreements between Armenia and Turkey and demanded a nationwide referendum on them.
In a written statement, the Zharangutyun (Heritage) party brushed aside government assurances that the two draft protocols unveiled by Ankara and Yerevan this week provide for an unconditional normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations. It argued that Armenia has explicitly recognized its existing border with Turkey and accepted a Turkish proposal to jointly study the massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.

The statement charged that the study would undermine Armenian efforts at broader international recognition of the mass killings as genocide. Echoing statements by other government critics, it also claimed that as part of the Western-backed deal with the Turks President Serzh Sarkisian agreed to make more concessions to Azerbaijan in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

“This does not stem from the national interests of the Republic of Armenia,” Armen Martirosian, the leader of Zharangutyun’s parliamentary faction, told RFE/RL. “Instead, it stems from Turkey’s interests. In essence, Turkey has managed to include all the preconditions, which it has had right from the beginning, in the protocols.”

The Zharangutyun statement said that the party will soon start collecting signatures in the National Assembly in support of its referendum demand. Under Armenian law, Zharangutyun needs the backing of at least two-thirds of the assembly members to force such a vote. It holds only seven seats in the 131-member parliament dominated by President Serzh Sarkisian’s supporters.

The statement warned that in case of the failure of the signature collection the party led by former Foreign Minister Raffi Hovannisian will stage anti-government protests and join forces with other political parties opposed to Sarkisian’s Turkish policy. One of those parties, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun), has also strongly condemned the Turkish-Armenian agreements.

Dashnaktsutyun holds 16 parliament seats and was a member of Sarkisian’s governing coalition until recently. Martirosian did not rule out the possibility of Zharangutyun’s close cooperation with Dashnaktsutyun on one of the most sensitive issues in Armenian politics.

The country’s largest opposition force, the Armenian National Congress (HAK), has responded more positively to the latest developments in the more than yearlong Turkish-Armenian negotiations. In a statement issued on Tuesday, the HAK said the disclosed draft protocols mark “substantial progress” towards Turkish-Armenian reconciliation. It at the same time denounced the planned creation of a Turkish-Armenian body tasked with examining the World War One-era massacres.

The HAK’s largely positive official reaction to the deal, which apparently reflects the views of its top leader Levon Ter-Petrosian, contrasted with sharp criticism of the government voiced by some top representatives of the alliance uniting about two dozen opposition groups. One of them, the Social Democratic Hnchakian Party, on Thursday disavowed the HAK statement and effectively sided with Zharangutyun and Dashnaktsutyun on the matter.

http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/1814226.html

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think you forget just how pointless legal claims are in reality. This world has always been and always will be dominated by the strong and no legal claim or document will change this. I cannot believe you guys still bicker about past treaties when it is obvious they are meaningless and the law is made by the powerfull nations of the day. I keep saying this but it just does not seem to sink home for some reason with many people, there is one and only one way to go here and that is to make our little Armenia into a bigger stronger one without killing it along the way.

Obviously in geopolitics, might equals right. I'm not disputing that. And I agree we need to make Armenia stronger without killing it along the way--- However, by rejecting proposals that go against our long-term national security, we are not risking Armenia's demise. We simply have to reach a better dialogue with the Russians in order for them to understand under what conditions the open borders would not impede on our national security. Remember, Turkey was about to invade us in 1993, and we can't open a border with a country who just dismisses all their aggressive behavior towards us, as if they have the right to do it. The problem with Armenia's leadership is that they do not vocalize our real national security issues on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. They don't do it with their own people, which shows irresponsibility, and they sure as hell don't do it on the international stage, although this is somewhat understandable but is in no way excusable. Thats why the Armenian side is unable to bring most of these issues out-of-the-blue now that we have agreed to negotiate with Turkey.

And I can't believe how Turkey actually got its preconditions on the protocols. For years the Armenian leadership's position has been "Open borders with no preconditions", and they have abandonded this principle. By changing a decades-long principle on a whim, we show the Turks that we are gullible, naive, and that we are desperate to open the border. If the other side thinks you want something desperately, they will never give you a good deal on it.

Its not impossible to work your way around these ridiculous preconditions. Turkey puts bogus things on the agenda, so we should respond with similar bogus claims to balance it out. If they bring up Karabagh, we bring up northern Cyprus, and argue that both are equally relevant to each other in terms of their relationship to our diplomatic relations. Lets hope they bring up Karabagh again so we can raise the northern Cyprus issue. If they bring up the issue of the border, just tell them you are willing to work with the current military-junta-imposed border we currently have with them, and tell them that the border issue is already resolved whether or not they want to recognize the valid documents that define our border. Nevertheless, as a goodwill gesture on our part, we will work with the current military-imposed borders, and no new document is needed in order to do this. Thats all you have to say to these Turks. By doing so we will simultaneously refuse signing away western Armenia, while showing everyone that we are willing to work with the current borders. I'm sure if we sit down and actually create a feasible strategy, we can achieve this, I'm just giving you ideas from the top of my head.

If they bring up the idea of a “historical commission”, refer them to the dozens of historical commissions that have already stated the Ottoman actions against us were genocide. Ask them why these other commissions are invalid. Ask for specific reasons. Then ask them to clearly define how this new commission is going to be set up, whether certain evidence will be considered, and how this body is going to be created, and refuse to include this provision if they cannot clearly define the process. Give them some homework before you even consider their proposal--- In fact, give them so much homework that they would rather remove it from the agenda. This is just simple rhetorical maneuvering that should be an instinct for our politicians. If Turkey knows we will answer each of their absurd suggestions with equally absurd suggestions, it will give Turkey an incentive to shut their mouths with their stupid preconditions.

The xxxs got what they wanted by dominating, manipulating, decieving the most powerfull country on earth and they will not let anyone else do the same because they own the usa and do not want to share.

And I have always said that Armenians should do the same. This starts with individuals like you and me working to become rich and powerful, even if its on a small scale.

Armenia has no choice, it must align its interests with russias even when they are not the same so that it can continue to exist. We are very lucky that Russia sees panturckism as a threat to its national security and uses us to prevent it or else there would not be a Armenia to speak of today. Bottom line-russia guerentees our security and we pay for it by giving up much of our sovreignty. Good or bad thats how it is and it is not going to change anytime soon and if it does change we are in deep xxxx. Be carefull what the Mukuch types wish for because if they get it, if russia really says to hell with you armenians then we are truelly screwed. During soviet times Armenia was one of the best places to live in the whole union and the people were educated, healthy and polite. Here we are 20 years later and Armenia still has not reached its soviet days standard of living. Add to this war, earthquake,blockade.. and you start to wonder why there are still people living there at all. You cannot keep jeapordise what little there is left of our homeland by saying lets keep fighting and not nagotiate because even the strongest of fighters are bound to lose if they keep fighting, and armenia is not that strong to begin with.We won kharabagh fair and square and we need to consolidate this gain even if it means giving up some other things we consider important. We can grow Armenia into a stronger country but we need to do it slowly, a step at a time so that the big powers hardly notice us growing because if they do notice then they will make us shrink again.

I agree with a lot of your main points--- actually, the problem I have with Dashnaks is that they are too anti-Russian, and they think we can fight off the entire world with a handful of fedayis, even though most of them will sit comfortably in the diaspora when the war really starts. Even the European Union can’t mess with Gazprom, and these people want Armenia to do it. But, on an ideological basis, I happen to agree with much of what they are saying in regards to this issue, I just think these ideas could be put into more diplomatic and digestible terms (digestible for odars).

There are gentle ways in which we can tell Russia what our conditions are. I'm not saying we should oppose Russia, or that we should completely block off the negotiations. Do you think Moscow is going to abandon its only outpost in the Caucasus because we simply want one or two clauses removed from the protocols? Does that seem realistic to you? We're not trying to play hardball like the Ukrainians or Georgians, Russia just has to be reminded that we have vital interests too. By not addressing these interests to them with conviction, we disrespect ourselves in their eyes, and you can't respect people who don't respect themselves.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Its not impossible to work your way around these ridiculous preconditions. Turkey puts bogus things on the agenda, so we should respond with similar bogus claims to balance it out. If they bring up Karabagh, we bring up northern Cyprus, and argue that both are equally relevant to each other in terms of their relationship to our diplomatic relations. Lets hope they bring up Karabagh again so we can raise the northern Cyprus issue. If they bring up the issue of the border, just tell them you are willing to work with the current military-junta-imposed border we currently have with them, and tell them that the border issue is already resolved whether or not they want to recognize the valid documents that define our border. Nevertheless, as a goodwill gesture on our part, we will work with the current military-imposed borders, and no new document is needed in order to do this. Thats all you have to say to these Turks. By doing so we will simultaneously refuse signing away western Armenia, while showing everyone that we are willing to work with the current borders. I'm sure if we sit down and actually create a feasible strategy, we can achieve this, I'm just giving you ideas from the top of my head.

Cyprus is the only other little issue Turkey needs to resolve for EU membership so I'm sure something is already in the works for that.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Ya, its seperate issue. My point was, if Turkey ever wants to bring up Karabagh (which is being monitored by the US, France and Russia), then we can be equally absurd by bringing up Cyprus, which has just as much to do with Armenian-Turkish relations as Karabagh does.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think you get it ArmSurvival, the meaning of this document is very much open ended and can go in a number of ways or nowhere atall. Dashnaks like to talk big but the painful truth is most have never even been to Armenia yet they go to Lebanon, Syria, egypt, jordan.... all the time then they have the balls to stand up and call Armenians living in Armenia unpatriotic, traitors........ Pissing off russia is literally putting a bullet in your own head. Some fools like to dismiss Russia's importance to Armenia despite the fact that russia is who gives us weapons, money, technology, natural resources, PROTECTION!@!!!!!!!! Russia is not doing this out of kindness, it has a interest in Armenia being there and that is the only reason it is still there. All these dashnaks can not protect Armenia against the turcks especialy without russias weapons, money, resources, technology support........ All i ask is that people think befor they talk big like Muk always does. Armenia does not have any good real options, it never did and those who imply otherwise are fooling themselves. If Armenia looses russian support then we are done period, there is no one else powerful enoughf who has a interest in protecting us (iran has a interest but is not anywhere near as powerfull). The armenian leaders during the soviet era were smart, they managed to make the smallest republic in the union one of the best ones to live in and the people thrived in it. Today our leaders have to be smart to get the most they can out of a bad situation that armenia has always been in and this means pleasing the bear and getting what they can. Unrealistic dreams should not be confused with reality and that is exactly what people like Muk are doing, they tell you that there are all these other options when there are non and if Armenia acted like the dashnaks want it would be oblitirated instantly, that is why i keep saying the dashnak party needs thinkers which it soarly lacks. You need a good plan to succeed at anything and the only real plan available to Armenia is the russian one.
UrMistake i think muk is not banned because the mods have a special place in their hearts for the typical loudmouthed, uneducated dashnaks like him. Just think before you talk Muk for your own sake, when you say xxxx russia what your really doing is xxxxing yourself. Fighting turckey is nothing like fighting our cowardly neighbors to the east, doing it without russia is suicide and i think even a person like muk can figure that out, or atleast i hope he can. Russia is also the reason the Azeris have not attacked us, there is plenty of evidence showing that they planned on doing just that after gergia attacked the kossaks but when they witnessed the russian reaction the azeris decided not to attack. So you see how russia is protecting us now or you still need more proof? More you say? fine how about the huge stockpile of weapons it gave us for under cost, or the multi million dollars it gave the RA or the billions of dollars it invested into our country. Yes russia has interests in Armenia and it will protect them but these interests do not include our dreams of getting back western armenia, atleast not now. Armenia needs to survive and thrive but it cannot survive without russia.end of story.