Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Palavra]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I raised the point to discuss what could be hopefully achieved post recognition for the state of Armenia.

Nothing. Turkey will not give any land or money(just some cheap words like we are sorry.) I think, Turkey will not even stop to blockade ROA and She will continue to support azeris. Not only because, Azeris are our brother but also because ROA is pro-iran and pro-Russia at kafkas.

he issue of moral vindication aside we Armenians need to consider what can realistically be gained from Turkey (politically) in the case that Turkey recognized the genocide.

Problem is how can Turkey hide her lies? So She cannot openly recognize genocide. She can only apologise for armenians sufference (I should add, This will be enough for EU or USA.) and built a memorial at every year. (It will not cost much.)

In my opinion Turkey at this point in history may gain more from Genocide recognition then it does by pursuing a denialist policy.

what can Turkey gain If She recognize ROA or at least apologise? a less anti-turkish armenians? Most probably not.a less anti-turkish ROA? No, Both ROA and Turkey will follow their benefits.

I should also add, Pressure over Turkey is decreasing and will decrease at future.(If we continue to grow economically and increase our political power over Middle east, balkan and kafkas.) So no reason to break Turkish honour.

At the same time Armenians and Armenia may lose a political tool without gaining anything more then an apology from Turkey.

Political tool? So what did Armenia gain from this tool? ROA is not gaining anything from this and She will not gain anything.

Armenians can only become a weapon for other countries. They can harm Turkey but They cannot gain anything for ROA.

[Azad]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I keep thinking of that saying about be careful what you wish for.

One of the fundamental reasons of our identity retention is the denial of our Genocide. I can say it one more time ... "be careful what you wish for".
If turks were smart enough they would have faced the issue and shelved it for good.

[Azad]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

So what did Armenia gain from this tool?

Palvara you should start asking the question what would turks learn from these events? That you are a winner? Of what?
At the end of the day be it Armenians or turks we will be facing the same problems ... living in happiness. Did the Genocide accomplish it for turks? Think again.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think you misunderstood my initial comment. In my opinion the failure of Turkish policy in Genocide denial, for Turkey's interests, has been the empowerment of Armenians within western politics. The problem for Armenians is that this may have become a singular focus and hence a point of potential failure. I raised the point to discuss what could be hopefully achieved post recognition for the state of Armenia. The issue of moral vindication aside we Armenians need to consider what can realistically be gained from Turkey (politically) in the case that Turkey recognized the genocide. In my opinion Turkey at this point in history may gain more from Genocide recognition then it does by pursuing a denialist policy. At the same time Armenians and Armenia may lose a political tool without gaining anything more then an apology from Turkey.

very nicely summed up, I feel the same way about the end of your post.

[gmd]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Nothing. Turkey will not give any land or money(just some cheap words like we are sorry.) I think, Turkey will not even stop to blockade ROA and She will continue to support azeris. Not only because, Azeris are our brother but also because ROA is pro-iran and pro-Russia at kafkas.



Problem is how can Turkey hide her lies? So She cannot openly recognize genocide. She can only apologise for armenians sufference (I should add, This will be enough for EU or USA.) and built a memorial at every year. (It will not cost much.)




what can Turkey gain If She recognize ROA or at least apologise? a less anti-turkish armenians? Most probably not.a less anti-turkish ROA? No, Both ROA and Turkey will follow their benefits.

I should also add, Pressure over Turkey is decreasing and will decrease at future.(If we continue to grow economically and increase our political power over Middle east, balkan and kafkas.) So no reason to break Turkish honour.



Political tool? So what did Armenia gain from this tool? ROA is not gaining anything from this and She will not gain anything.

Armenians can only become a weapon for other countries. They can harm Turkey but They cannot gain anything for ROA.

Your response is myopic and in no way conducive of an intelligent discussion. All you are doing is regurgitating the same propaganda you were force fed as a child. When you acquire the ability to disassociate your false sense of “turkish honor” from reality then you may be able to see the possibilities.

[Palavra]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkish honour is a stupid as 100 year of armenia suffering.(Not talking about genocide.) Both is used for propoganda..But It is a stupid propaganda majority of people believe. (It is also absurd to claim that I am victim of Turkish propoganda when I said that Turkey lied a lot. can you say it about armenians? I am sure, They lied a lot too.)

So tell me, what can turkey gain If she accept genocide? what did armenia gain from following AG campaign? You did not answer these questions.

Palvara you should start asking the question what would turks learn from these events? That you are a winner? Of what?

You are talking like all people care about learning. Most probably, noone will learn from genocide.. Neither armenians nor Turks. It will not make armenians or Turks more merciful.. You cannot change forest.

By the way, I was just talking about politics not ethics.

dont take it personally, As You know, I accept genocide(not politically.) and I see it as crime..

But I am realy curious If you(not personal again.) have capacity to talk with turks. I did not attack anyone but what I met is only anger because I said ROA did not again anything politically.

It look like disagreeing with an armenian automatically make a turk stupid or evil.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

May I add, the conclusions we've drawn of being rather wary of genocide recognition by Turkey, isn't exactly the attitude we were normally brought up with. It's considered as a logical goal of our Hai Dat, and shortsightedly, many Armenians don't see it's potential to backfire politically on us.

This conclusion of ours was certainly not force fed on us when we were growing up (at least not towards any Armenian I've met).

[gmd]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkish honour is a stupid as 100 year of armenia suffering.(Not talking about genocide.) Both is used for propoganda..But It is a stupid propaganda majority of people believe. (It is also absurd to claim that I am victim of Turkish propoganda when I said that Turkey lied a lot. can you say it about armenians? I am sure, They lied a lot too.)

So tell me, what can turkey gain If she accept genocide? what did armenia gain from following AG campaign? You did not answer these questions.



You are talking like all people care about learning. Most probably, noone will learn from genocide.. Neither armenians nor Turks. It will not make armenians or Turks more merciful.. You cannot change forest.

By the way, I was just talking about politics not ethics.

dont take it personally, As You know, I accept genocide(not politically.) and I see it as crime..

But I am realy curious If you(not personal again.) have capacity to talk with turks. I did not attack anyone but what I met is only anger because I said ROA did not again anything politically.

It look like disagreeing with an armenian automatically make a turk stupid or evil.

I can only state my opinion. I believe by recognizing the Armenian Genocide Turkey can resolve several issues without losing anything. Turkey can portray a progressive image to the rest of the world; it can use the occasion to effectively reach out to its neighbors as the force of moderation. It can silence any detractors in the EU who use AG as a tool for themselves (w/out caring for Armenians in any meaningful manner). It can use recognition as a new propaganda tool to showcase its benevolent intentions in regional politics. Additionally, this may cause a rift in the greater Armenian community. As already pointed out AG has been a rallying cry for Armenians in the Diaspora.

My concern was not for Turkey or the perspective of Turks. I was thinking as an Armenian and what benefits or losses this may represent for Armenia. I have heard many hopes expressed by Armenians that US or even Turkish recognition would usher in an era of change for Armenians and an opportunity to gain some measure of justice for wrongs committed. The political reality is that Armenia will not necessarily gain in any manner for its security and the losses to individual Armenians and the Armenian people will not be redressed by Turkey or any other government. With that in mind the political pressure that Armenians in the Diaspora are able to bring upon Turkey may be more useful to us then US or Turkish recognition of AG.

[gmd]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

May I add, the conclusions we've drawn of being rather wary of genocide recognition by Turkey, isn't exactly the attitude we were normally brought up with. It's considered as a logical goal of our Hai Dat, and shortsightedly, many Armenians don't see it's potential to backfire politically on us.

This conclusion of ours was certainly not force fed on us when we were growing up (at least not towards any Armenian I've met).

Well put.

[Pazooki]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I can only state my opinion. I believe by recognizing the Armenian Genocide Turkey can resolve several issues without losing anything. Turkey can portray a progressive image to the rest of the world; it can use the occasion to effectively reach out to its neighbors as the force of moderation. It can silence any detractors in the EU who use AG as a tool for themselves (w/out caring for Armenians in any meaningful manner). It can use recognition as a new propaganda tool to showcase its benevolent intentions in regional politics. Additionally, this may cause a rift in the greater Armenian community. As already pointed out AG has been a rallying cry for Armenians in the Diaspora.

My concern was not for Turkey or the perspective of Turks. I was thinking as an Armenian and what benefits or losses this may represent for Armenia. I have heard many hopes expressed by Armenians that US or even Turkish recognition would usher in an era of change for Armenians and an opportunity to gain some measure of justice for wrongs committed. The political reality is that Armenia will not necessarily gain in any manner for its security and the losses to individual Armenians and the Armenian people will not be redressed by Turkey or any other government. With that in mind the political pressure that Armenians in the Diaspora are able to bring upon Turkey may be more useful to us then US or Turkish recognition of AG.

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Armenia has everything to gain. They have the land that Turks took away. That's what we deserve. The land they took away. If Turkey accepts the Genocide we are getting exactly what we deserve. Your probably thinking, "Oh that can't be right." Oh, but it is. If I beat you up and take your bike and then a few years later you see it on my porch but it's fixed up and has a new paint job wouldn't you have the right to take it back?

Same with Turkey the monuments, people, and government is basically the new paint job in the land they took from us.