Armenian-Turkish Relations

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

This document may not be fair but it is not one sided and much of its real meaning will depend on how it is implimented.

You're quite right on this point, but lets think for a moment... in whose favor will such protocols be interpreted? In the favor of the weaker or stronger state? Obviously the stronger. So by Armenia signing the document, it is already an admission that these things will be judged in Turkey's favor. They will set up a commission to decide whether or not there was a genocide, and if Armenia refuses Turkey will use it as bait to tell the world, "look, Armenia was willing to open a commission, and now they're backing out, so they are backing out of the protocols and we cannot establish diplomatic relations".

So what would you recommend? Agreeing to a "historical commission"? Lets see the possible pros and cons of this:

1. In the best-case scenario, the historical commission will take us back to zero, in other words, it will say there was an Armenian Genocide. Great, we are back to square one, waiting for Turkey to accept it. Nowhere in the protocol does it say Turkey has to accept the decision of the commission, and if they did, there is no way in hell they would sign the document unless they knew 100% that the commission was paid off in their favor.

2. More likely, the commission will either reject that it was a genocide, or it will reach a stalemate. Both cases are detrimental to us, because Turkey can say "the commission could not prove it was genocide", and use that as propaganda for many years to come.

I know that Armenia is doing this for Russia's economic benefit. So why do they need to set up a commission of historians? Why do they need to make Armenia recognize Turkey's fake borders, and give up our legal claim to western Armenia? Is this really in Russia's interest? No. We can open borders without touching any of these issues, but Turkey and the US insist that they include these provisions. We should talk to Russia and say look, we are ready to open the border if you get these issues off the agenda. If they say sorry we can't do that, then say sorry we can't accept these proposals. If need be, we should drag Russia into this issue, whether they like it or not, because this is all their idea in the first place.


As to accepting the fake borders... once we give up our legal claim to western Armenia, our country will forever imprison itself as a landlocked, resourceless, tiny republic, doomed to an eternity of weakness. They are asking Armenia to agree to tie a noose around its own neck, so that Turkey can kick the box from under our legs in a few decades.

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

This is almost like Turkey marrying Armenia and Armenia has to give up everything to be with Turkey. Just one bad soap opera.

Well i think we got a "wrong guy" he doesn’t deserve such a sacrifice. And Armenia can get much better than that Concidering that "the groom" is "with past"

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

One possible scenario is the turkish parliament refuse the protocol first before our do it so we can say that they dont wont any open borders,so next time we will get better conditions for Armenia.

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

And in which way it implicates that Armenia has to accept the term until turk satisfy them selfs,we must think what there society has to say about the agreement.

Very simple: if they accept this they will accept the others....
Have you seen how they get chicken to come closer so they can kill it?
In armenian it is called: kut tal.

And even if Armenia will not accept other treaties or protocols or whatever you call it, don’t forget the purpose of turks is to bye time and impression is already created that turks do something about it. That all turks need for now.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Kut chen talis mez.

Its more probably they attack now than when some sort of agreement signed cause that one will combine turkey also,and dont forget the CSTO.
Danger will always exist,are u forgetting of how CCCP were so close to war with turkey and deny past agreements,im telling u we can do same thing as they,we have done it in past and we can do it in future its just the natural why in the curent geopolitical position of ours,they know some day they will have bad news from armenian side.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Dashnaks Again Slam Sarkisian On Turkey, Karabakh


The opposition Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun) rallied more than a thousand supporters in Yerevan on Wednesday to again condemn President Serzh Sarkisian’s policy on Turkey and warn him against signing a compromise peace deal with Azerbaijan.
Addressing the crowd that gathered in downtown Yerevan, Dashnaktsutyun leaders reiterated their rejection of the latest fence-mending agreement announced by the Armenian and Turkish governments. They claimed in particular that the Sarkisian administration has agreed to make additional concessions to Azerbaijan as part of the deal.

“No matter how much our and American officials insist that the normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations is going on without preconditions, Turkey has not abandoned them after all,” said Vahan Hovannisian, a member of the nationalist party’s ruling Bureau. “Furthermore, it has skillfully managed to build the whole negotiating package around its preconditions.”

Armenia -- Vahan Hovannisian, a leader of the opposition Armenian Revolutionary Federation, speaks at a party rally, 02Sep2009
Hovannisian described as a “disgrace” the planned formation of a Turkish-Armenian body tasked with examining the 1915 mass killings of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey. He said the Turkish-Armenian rapprochement will also result in “unilateral” Armenian concessions in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. He did not specify what those concessions will be, however.



Dashnaktsutyun leaders again cautioned that despite their harsh criticism of the current Armenian leadership they are not demanding Sarkisian’s resignation yet. “As long as there is a possibility of preventing the signing of a final [Turkish-Armenian and Armenian-Azerbaijani] agreement and contributing to the success of that cause, such a demand can not be logical,” said Armen Rustamian, head of the party’s governing body in Armenia.

Rustamian added that Dashnaktsutyun, which pulled out of Armenia’s coalition government in April, will push for Sarkisian’s resignation if he signs up to the existing basic principles of Karabakh peace drafted by the U.S., Russian and French mediators. The latter hope that Sarkisian and his Azerbaijani counterpart, Ilham Aliyev, will finalize a framework peace deal when they meet again next month.

http://www.armenialiberty.org/content/article/1813385.html

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkish-Armenian Deal A Step Forward For Ter-Petrosian


Armenia’s largest opposition force gave late Tuesday a mostly positive assessment of an agreement paving the way for the normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations, while rejecting one of its key provisions.
The Armenian National Congress (HAK) and its top leader, former President Levon Ter-Petrosian, have previously harshly criticized President Serzh Sarkisian’s conciliatory policy toward Turkey, saying that it has earned Armenia no tangible benefits. Some HAK representatives are also highly critical of a potentially ground-breaking statement issued by the Armenian, Turkish and Swiss foreign ministries on Monday.

The HAK’s official reaction to the development was more positive. “The normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations stems from the interests of the two countries and peoples as well as peace and stability in the region,” the alliance said in a statement. “The protocols on the establishment of diplomatic relations and development of bilateral ties mark substantial progress in that direction.”

The HAK at the same rejected as “unacceptable” the establishment of a Turkish-Armenian panel of experts tasked with looking into the 1915 massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, which is envisaged by one of the draft protocols. Echoing the views of many in Armenia and its Diaspora, it said the very existence of such a body “calls into question the reality of the Armenian genocide.”

The HAK also expressed concern about another provision whereby the Turkish-Armenian agreements will take effect only after being ratified by the parliaments of the two countries. It said that allows Ankara to indefinitely delay the reopening of the Turkish-Armenian border.

http://www.armenialiberty.org/content/article/1813022.html

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

There’s no mention of Kars agreement in Armenian-Turkish rapprochement protocols

02.09.2009 19:39 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Joint statement of RA and Turkey as well as protocols on establishment of diplomatic relations clearly state that the parties respect international norms and principles. There’s no mention of Kars agreement in Armenian-Turkish rapprochement protocols, and there’s no need to look for something the documents simply don’t contain, RA Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian told a news conference in Yerevan.

“As we repeatedly stated, intergovernmental committee to be created will discuss all issues on Armenian-Turkish relations. The committee will include several subcommittees, one of them in charge of restoration of trust between the two countries,” RA FM emphasized. According to him, Negotiations with Ankara did not include discussions on Armenian Genocide, neither was the issue mentioned in protocols.

http://panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=35823

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Im very unhappy i expected most of the members said there opinion in the matter,why so much silence it has to do with our future.

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

YEREVAN (Yerkir)—Calling it a retreat from generations of struggle and a disgrace, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, at a rally Wednesday, warned of the dangers emanating from the Armenia-Turkey normalization process as outlined by the protocols announced earlier this week. The rally was organized to mark the 18th anniversary of Karabakh’s independence.

Speaking to the thousands gathered at Yerevan’s Aznavour Square, ARF Bureau member Vahan Hovannesian expressed the unequivocal rejection by his party of the protocols for establishment and development of relations between Armenia and Turkey, which were announced on Monday.

He warned that the documents did not reflect the aspirations of Armenia and were guided by elements that, in the long run, would benefit Turkey and its interests in the region, including the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and its aspirations for membership in the EU.

Hovannesian pointed out that the Armenian authorities have agreed to further concessions in a process that was supposed to have been advanced without any preconditions, as articulated on numerous occasions by Armenia’s leaders.

“No matter how extensively our and US officials contend that talks on Turkish-Armenian relations are proceeding without preconditions, Turkey has not abandoned them and has adeptly managed to construct the entire negotiations package around its preconditions,” said Hovannesian.

He outlined that the provisions of the protocols have weakened the process to attain international recognition for the Genocide and are effectively forcing the recognition of the anti-Armenian Kars Treaty, to which Armenia was not a signatory.

“We view as careless efforts by the Armenian President and Foreign Minister to seek a quick resolution through negotiations. Our people will pay a very high price for that,” warned Hovannesian, enumerating Turkey’s gains and Armenia’s losses since the announcement of the so-called “roadmap” agreement on the eve of the 94th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.

Hovannesian stressed that the ARF has never been against the reopening of the Turkish-Armenian border. However, he said the party can by no means agree to “the price the Armenian authorities are willing to pay” for meeting Turkey’s preconditions.

“We say ‘yes’ to the establishment of diplomatic relations without any preconditions. However, in their present form, the Protocols are unacceptable and must be revised,” Hovannesian stated.

The same sentiments were echoed by ARF Supreme Council of Armenia chairman Armen Rustamian, who also discussed the party’s position on the ongoing Nagorno-Karabakh conflict resolution process.

He said that the current negotiations process are also pressuring Yerevan to agree to a hasty agreement, through which withdrawal of liberated territories surrounding the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic is stipulated without security guarantees and the demand for determination of a new status, which goes counter to democratic norms, since Karabakh has already determined its status through popular vote.

ARF parliamentary bloc member Ara Nranyan also discussed Armenia’s domestic situation, outlining socio-economic reforms to strengthen Armenian society and national interests.