Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

[Siamanto]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

Thank you for sharing the opinions of Baron Armen Ayvazian, Ph.D. in Political Science, Director of the "Ararat" Center for Strategic Research and of Raphael Patkanyan and Garegin Nzhdeh.

Unfortunately some of the main criteria these guys have set in their opinions just denied over 70% maybe more of the people living outside of Armenia the right to claim them selfs as Armenians including my entire family.

TXMENIAN,
When I posted the article presenting/summarizing Mr. Avvazian's work - along with a couple of other Identity related articles - in the thread "The Fundamentals Of Armenian Identity Or Who Is An Armenian,"? I have added the following note

[I found the following relatively shallow, superficial and of little intellectual depth or value. However, the question of Armenian Identity - no matter what it means - is of relevance, and some may disagree with my assessment. Also, I found the author's choice of the word "fact" a bit puzzling.
Siamanto.]

I'm not familiar with the details of his work, but, based on the article printed in Azg - that may not do justice to his work, I think that Mr. Ayvazian
1- Has no grasp on the realities of the Armenian Community - i.e. The Republic of Armenia and Diaspora
2- He seems to have no "research discipline" and/or objectivity - consider his usage of the word "fact"
3- No consistent, comprehensive model

I hope that there exist publications of higher quality.


Personally, I think that before answering the fundamental question - at least to an "acceptable" degree: "Who is an Armenian?"
One should answer clarify, at least, the following :
1- Is being an Armenian is an Identity, more, less, different???
2- What is an Identity i.e. a feeling of belonging, a statement of belonging, cultural affinities, affiliation - genetic, communal or... - etc. etc.?

Vaguely said, I consider an "Identity" what may associate us with a specific community of others; as opposed to
1- Universal - i.e. human - values
2- Individual/sub-collectivity values
I understand that all is relative, all is a matter of conceptually modeling the factual world...a factual world that is diverse, complex, and constantly changing - though, often, slowly.

[NightOwl]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

Hi TX like you i grew up with all Non-Armenians, then i went to Glendale where i thought it would be great to be around all Armenian people, basically i was told I was white washed, a white girl, That there no way im full Armenian because im too white and my eyes are blue. Basically they were rude and acted like jerks.
If your Armenian who was born in America and so were your parents, basically the Armenians who immigrated here in the 90s have this view on Armenian people like myself.
Its funny since my family has been in America for 100 years and my grandparents generation made a good name for Armenians. The people who came here in the late 80s/ 90s ruined the reputation. Now when i tell people Im Armenian, I get stereotyped right away, they think my parents were not born here, i speak Armenian, im a jerk, etc.
I have friends who are Italian, German, they were born in in the US and so were their parents.. Speaking a language doesnt make you more of what you are.
Unfortunantly alot of Armenian people are very ignorant and EXTREMELY JUDGEMENTAL!!
The problem with me is that the Armenian people who came here in the 90s act like a different race of people from my grandparents time. Even my priest from my Armenian church agrees with me. My grandparents came to America after the genocide and wanted to be respected, they spoke English and worked hard and embraced America.
Sorry to say it but the new Armenian immigrants are very much like Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in the US. Its pretty sad, im so glad my grandparents died before they saw all this.
Theres two types of Armenians in the US, the ones whos grandparents came over during the genocide and then the ones who came in the 80/90s.
They both act like two different races of people. The ones who came during the genocide act like All American people, you wouldnt know their Armenian unless they told you, The ones in the 80s/90s act like Dominicans or Puerto Rican immigrants.

I know I'll be hated for saying all this but its the truth.

[Azad]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

TXMENIAN just keep in mind there are many trolls on these forums. You are in the law enforcement, you should know when shiiit stinks from a mile. People that constantly post negative or dividing us posts should not be taken too seriously. Specially the ones that portray themselves as the little innocent that want to solve our "problems". The ones that "write" in English but still reason in turkish.

[Armenian]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

Hi TX like you i grew up with all Non-Armenians, then i went to Glendale where i thought it would be great to be around all Armenian people, basically i was told I was white washed, a white girl, That there no way im full Armenian because im too white and my eyes are blue. Basically they were rude and acted like jerks... barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf, barf...

What an annoying bonehead you turned out to be. You are acting like an airhead. No wonder people don't like you. I bet it has nothing to do with your, now legendary, "white looks" and "blue eyes"... Listen, NightOwl, why don't you runoff and start another thread about your favorite topic in life - Kim Kardashian.

[Armenian]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

After being here for few days I can say I am glad I found this place.

I am glad to have an Armenian like you posting here. Regardless of your upbringing, just the fact that you are deeply interested in your heritage and identity and have visited the homeland says enough about your inner person, about the "Armenian" in you. Most diasporan Armenians today have not visited Armenia, nor are they interested in their cultural/national heritage. I hope you keep retuning to the homeland, even if you never consider living there. In my opinion, it would be irrational to even suggest to someone like you to consider living there. I would simply like to see individuals such as yourself establish and maintain a 'physical' and 'spiritual' connection to the homeland. Maybe, just maybe, your children may want to live there in the future. You may even end up have an Armenian bride. You never know. Dr. Ayvazian's essay regarding "what is an Armenian" simply had to do with Armenia and not Armenians. It's simple: Without Armenia, there is no point of being an Armenian, especially in the West. Regardless of what we do Armenians living in the diaspora will eventually disappear. Thus, it's all about the Armenian nation. Regardless of who we are and where we live, the preservation of the Armenian state is a fundamental concept that all self-respecting Armenians must respect - without condition.

[Armenian]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

If you don't want to be considered a jerk then don't behave like one, wallowing in self pity and accusations.
I don't understand how can you be offended when someone presumes you speak Armenian. I also don't understand how do you link it with being a jerk. It's all quite hysterical.

Meline jan, please disregard the airhead. We have been through this issue with her on many other occasions. I have even caught some lies and gross exaggerations by her. Take what she says very-very lightly, almost like bad entertainment. Simply put: NightOwl likes hanging out in bars and is interested in topics that would make most people puke in disgust.

[TXMENIAN]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

I'm not familiar with the details of his work, but, based on the article printed in Azg - that may not do justice to his work, I think that Mr. Ayvazian
1- Has no grasp on the realities of the Armenian Community - i.e. The Republic of Armenia and Diaspora
2- He seems to have no "research discipline" and/or objectivity - consider his usage of the word "fact"
3- No consistent, comprehensive model

I hope that there exist publications of higher quality.

I understand. To be honest, I never heard of the guy and dint know his work or him either. But I know this, for someone that knows the barbaric acts by the barbarian in 1915 fail to drive Armenians to extinction and make a statement like the following "Fact 1: The Armenian ethnicity is under the threat of extinction on the territory of its own homeland" tells me the man had his exaggeration meter set to max before he even starts typing this article.

[TXMENIAN]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

TXMENIAN just keep in mind there are many trolls on these forums. You are in the law enforcement, you should know when shiiit stinks from a mile. People that constantly post negative or dividing us posts should not be taken too seriously. Specially the ones that portray themselves as the little innocent that want to solve our "problems". The ones that "write" in English but still reason in turkish.

You mean the ones that read posts like NightOwl's and smile and say "93 years later and the aftermath of our crimes is still evident"?

[TXMENIAN]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

Armenian,

You need to know that I know first hand how it feels to someone to be without his country. Many times I sat on his lap and listened to my Grandfather's stories about him being a boy from Urpha and meeting my Grandmother on a trip he took to Azaz. Stories that if you pay attention you can tell the man is still living in those days in his own head and don't want to deal with the reality of him losing his country. Just because I was born in the greatest state in the union does not mean I am ignorant on the importance of Armenians belonging in Armenia. You and few others keep wishing I keep visiting Armenia. Stop, I made few friendship in two visits and still have Aunts, uncles and cousins that live in Yerevan and I will visit every time I have a chance. It's not like I own the travel company that flies me there. I have to plan and pay for those trips. LOL
My brother and I are looking into buying a particular apartment in Yerevan that has a view of Ararat as we speak. But even so, As far as moving there permanently does not look like a possibility right now. Maybe this will change in the future. But if it didn't, I know I have been and done and will continue on doing enough for my people, my far away homeland that even if I didn't participate in your "fundamental concept" I will be OK and not feel I was less of what Armenian in Armenia are.

For about 80 years the only Armenia we knew was the one under the Russian rule and we did good. I don't understand how you figure someday Armenians outside Armenia will disappear. If you are thinking every Armenian will move and live in Armenia one day? Good for you and I really hope so but I dint see that happing.

I am glad to have an Armenian like you posting here. Regardless of your upbringing

Can you please clarify what do you mean by "Armenian like you" and "Regardless of your upbringing" please.

[Armenian]

Re: Just wondering, Thought I share and ask

Can you please clarify what do you mean by "Armenian like you" and "Regardless of your upbringing" please.

Someone who has been brought up on the fringes of Armenian society/community; someone who is married to a non-Armenian; someone who is probably more American than Armenian; yet someone who has managed to keep in touch with his heritage and identity.

Clear enough?

But I know this, for someone that knows the barbaric acts by the barbarian in 1915 fail to drive Armenians to extinction and make a statement like the following "Fact 1: The Armenian ethnicity is under the threat of extinction on the territory of its own homeland" tells me the man had his exaggeration meter set to max before he even starts typing this article.

TX, you must first be humble enough to realize that you are not all too familiar with the very complex dynamics/mechanisms of the Armenian nation and the kind of geopolitical/sociopolitical situation the Armenian Republic is in today.

Two things I would like to say:

1) It it were not for the first Armenian Republic established in 1918, that which continued during the Soviet era and is a free republic again today - Turks would have fully succeeded in their plan to exterminate the Armenian nation. It's a gross inaccuracy to state - just because we are chit-chatin here in cyberspace, Turks did not succeed. Turks did succeed! Western Armenia - Anatolia - our ancient homeland has been depopulated of Armenians. Moreover, although you are interested in your heritage, there are countless other Armenians in your category, the vast majority of American Armenians, are totally oblivious to all things Armenian. With each new generation there will be less-and-less Armenians like you. It's no secret, the Armenian diaspora is dying a not too slow death, especially in the West.

2) The Armenian Republic today is in a very vulnerable/precarious geopolitical/sociopolitical position. In an certain sense, this is what Armenia looks like today: Tiny, impoverished, depleted population, landlocked, with no natural resources and surrounded by hostile neighbors in the worst geopolitical location in earth - the Caucasus. Fledgling Armenia is caught in a merciless regional tug of war with no end in sight. Under certain circumstances, for instance; the expulsion of Russians forces from the greater Caucasus region, the Armenian Republic can cease to exist in a blink-of-an-eye. This already bad situation has gotten worst recently with the onset of the US inspired coup d'etat several months ago.

My brother and I are looking into buying a particular apartment in Yerevan that has a view of Ararat as we speak. But even so, As far as moving there permanently does not look like a possibility right now. Maybe this will change in the future. But if it didn't, I know I have been and done and will continue on doing enough for my people, my far away homeland that even if I didn't participate in your "fundamental concept" I will be OK and not feel I was less of what Armenian in Armenia are.

Did I say you need to move to Armenia? I said seek to maintain ties with the nation, then perhaps something good will come out of it. Nonetheless, what you and your brother have been "thinking" of doing in Yerevan is still better than what most Armenians do when it comes to Armenia - nothing. All it takes is intention.

For about 80 years the only Armenia we knew was the one under the Russian rule and we did good. I don't understand how you figure someday Armenians outside Armenia will disappear.

Anyway, ask yourself if your children will marry Armenians and/or raise their children as Armenians? Do you have relatives? How are they doing? Think longterm. 80 years is a blink of an eye in history. Nonetheless, of the one million plus Armenians in America only a small minorioty have kept their Armenian identity to some degree. With each coming generation this number will dwindle until it reaches zero. This wont be the first time or the last time in our turbulent history. We have given countless millions of our countrymen to foreign lands for thousand of years. Armenians exist today simply because of our homeland.