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The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

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  • The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

    The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians or Why Ultra-nationalism Will Ultimately Lead to the Downfall of Independent Armenia

    Introduction

    The events that have transpired over the past three days (primarily the night of June 30, 2008) have jarred the very foundation of the hyeclub.com forum. I have examined closely what was said by different people and I have come to the conclusion that the ideology of certain members on this forum necessarily leads to philosophical and psychological destruction of an individual and eventually a nation. What is this ideology? Ultranationalism.

    What is Ultra-nationalism?

    Ultra-nationalism is a radical form of nationalism – it is love for country taken to the extreme. It is characterized by an over-obsessive preoccupation with everything that is of that country. The MSN Encarta Dictionary defines ultra-nationalism as “nationalism that is so extreme as to be detrimental to international interests or cooperation”. I will amend this definition to include “to be detrimental to national interests” as well.

    After careful observation of certain members on this forum, I have identified certain philosophical and psychological traits that all ultra-nationalists have in common.

    Philosophical Insights

    1. A sense of moral superiority or authority
    a. An ultranationalist’s primary role is as moralizer; s/he claims the moral high ground and chastises others for their “sins”.
    b. An ultranationalist believes equates the “interests of the nation” (whatever this means to the ultranationalist at the time) with rationality and morality.

    2. A fixation on ethnicity and race
    a. An ultranationalist is preoccupied with keeping the nation “monoracial” and “monoethnic”. An ultranationalist does not recognize that race and ethnicity are social constructs.
    b. An ultranationalist is unwilling to accept members outside the ethnic group as “true” members of the nation. S/he feels s/he is of superior “stock” and “breeding” to the mulatto or foreigner.
    c. An ultranationalist fixated on racial purity may express this through narcissistic and egomaniacal tendencies.

    3. Rigidity of thought
    a. An ultranationalist is “closed minded”. S/he is unwilling to consider other opinions – even those that differ only slightly.
    b. An ultranationalist can use verbal and physical intimidation to “correct” the other person’s worldview.
    c. A sense of moral authority combined with this rigidity of thought is what leads the ultranationalist to suggest the invasion of other countries without considering the long-term effects of geo-political isolation. Consider the situation in Javakh – separatists do not understand that if they separate from Georgia, Armenia will be cut off from Europe. Iran will have Armenia by the balls. In this sense an ultranationalist does not concern him/herself with what is practical but only with what they consider as moral.

    Psychological Insights

    1. Insecurity about their own Armenian-ness
    a. An ultranationalist overcompensates for a perceived lack of “Armenian-ness” by imposing extreme nationalism on others.
    b. This insecurity is usually subconscious and thus an ultranationalist will be the first to deny his/her insecurity.

    2. Us vs. Them mentality
    a. An ultranationalist divides the world into “us” and them” meaning “nationalist” and “non-nationalist”, with the nationalist being moral and the non-nationalist being immoral.
    b. Furthermore, an ultranationalist may even go to the extent of dividing the world into “Armenian” and “Odar”, with the Armenian being moral, and the Odar being immoral. As Siamanto pointed out in another thread, this division can be extended to “East vs. West”, “Ramgavar vs. Tashnag”, “Democrat vs. Republican”, and “Diasporan vs. Native”. The “beauty” of this mentality is that you can divide people by any trait.
    c. This mentality creates what is called “the Other”. “The Other” is an academic term that is applied when one group who excludes another they consider to be different in some way or another. It is thus easier for the group to belittle, berate and dehumanize “the Other”.

    3. Unhealthy obsession with everything Armenian
    a. There is nothing wrong with a healthy infatuation with Armenian language, culture and country but the ultra-nationalist takes it to another level – to the point of equating non-Armenian with “non-importance”.
    b. An ultra-nationalist will thus exhibit overtones of xenophobia.

    Who does this type of ideology attract? Usually it attracts Diasporans who have never had a sense of direction or a grounded morality. The fact that they are diasporans allows them to romanticize the homeland while the fact that they have never had a sense of morality allows them to take this morality to the extreme.

    Is Ultra-nationalism Detrimental to the Homeland?

    Although some people on this forum may claim that I am “anti-Armenia” or whatever I think that the ultra-nationalist is more “anti-Armenia” than anyone else, although s/he may not know it. There is nothing wrong with a healthy dose of nationalism and love for country – especially in times of war when this type of extremism is needed if you are to die for your country – but we must not let this obscure a true picture of the obstacles the homeland faces.

    Just look at some of the people on this forum who criticize others for criticizing the administration of Armenia. This is equivalent to far-Right Americans who claim it is unpatriotic to disagree with President Bush – because he is President. Instead of looking critically at the problems we face of the people, they appeal to the people’s patriotism to obscure the problems of the nation. It puts blinders on a people and will eventually lead to its downfall.

    Ultranationalism is also detrimental to the homeland in that it alienates its Diaspora – claiming that they are not Armenian and never will be. Although a Diasporan who is unconcerned with his ancestral culture, heritage and language is of no concern to the homeland, there is no reason to alienate diasporans who are even if those diasporans are not “100%” (remember, ethnicity is a social construct!) Armenian. It is important to foster a love for culture, religion and language in these individuals as they may decide to take an extended stay in Armenia in the future. Teach and nurture, don’t seek and destroy!

    Armenia is not solely about the nation – it is also about music, art and culture. Armenia is not solely about politics – it also about language, religion and cuisine. Armenia is not solely about war and geopolitical strategy – it also about family and interpersonal relationships.

    It is about all of these things.

    It is about none of these things.

    Once the ultranationalist groups and parties realize this, Armenia and the Diaspora will be better off.
    Last edited by yerazhishda; 07-07-2008, 06:42 PM.

  • #2
    Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

    Originally posted by Hye_Psycho
    i seee you have already started to amend, alter and appropriate difinitions of words, to suit your narrow-minded idealogical agenda...propaganda machine warming up
    Hye_Psycho, I think you are being too harsh. The kid pumps gas for work and gets brainwashed at a governmental institution we call college/university. So what depth were you expecting?
    Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

    Նժդեհ


    Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

      Some things never change. This thread is begging to erupt into another flame war.
      Achkerov kute.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

        Originally posted by Armenian View Post
        ... gets brainwashed at a governmental institution we call college/university....

        Similarly, I have heard many kids complain how SAT's are biased ... pretty much always from those that didn't do too well
        Last edited by Sip; 07-03-2008, 10:08 AM.
        this post = teh win.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

          Originally posted by Hye_Psycho
          i seee you have already started to amend, alter and appropriate difinitions of words, to suit your narrow-minded idealogical agenda...propaganda machine warming up
          I am sorry to hear that you take such personal offense at my essay. Yes, I am amending a definition because I did not think that it covers the full meaning of what it means to be an "ultra-nationalist". The definition says that an ultranationalist may be disregard the welfare of other countries. I believe the ultranationalist can be detrimental to the homeland as well.

          congratulations for making sweeping generalisations for all ultra-nationalists...based on what 3-4 people you vaguely know?... the machine is rareing to go now..
          I think you got me there. I should probably have said "most". I believe that most ultranationalists exhibit the qualities I outlined in my essay. And I based the essay on observations from this forum and other places (other essays, news reports, personal acquantances, etc.)

          ahh yet more completly personal observations made by yourself..lambasted here as absolute fact. claiming of moral high ground..an absolute undisputable trait of the bad ultr-nationalists..and never ever an psycological trait carried out by the left... this is what we are to believe?
          All essays are personal observations. There is no such thing as a completely "objective" opinion, separate from the subject and anyone who thinks so is deluding themselves. I never claimed this essay was "absolute fact" and I'd like to know where I said that.

          Do ultra-nationalists not exhibit a sense of moral superiority?

          I never claimed that these couldn't be psychological traits of another group or ideology, because they can be as seen in militant religious groups among others.

          well done. the above is 100% true. so what. i am better then a turk or an uncivilised barbarian. race and ethnicity is not a social construct full stop. racial purity is an policy observed and conducted by many nations, and so it should be. these are all positive qualities.
          Are you claiming that you are better than all Turks that ever were? What do you mean by "Turk"? An ethnic Turk? Hrant Dink thought of himself as a Turk as well as an Armenian. I hope you aren't claiming to be better than him.

          There is no such thing as racial purity. How do you know you are 100% "racially pure"? Do you know your complete geneology?

          Please inform me which nations observe policies of racial purity because I currently know of none. Would you have Armenia restrict entrance/citizenship to Armenians only? What about people like Hrant Hovsepyan, a black Armenian serving in the Armenian Army? If someone wants to come in, let them in. Armenia needs more people, not less.

          once again these opinions are merely that..random thoughts constructed by you..somone who despises ultra-nationalism...and there for will spit out anti-fascist, anti-race libertarian propaganda to suit your given idealogical dogma.
          Where did I say that I despise ultra-nationalism? I think that it can be a good think in small doses and in specific circumstances. I think if you take this ideology to the extreme, Armenia will be the worse off for it.

          Are you criticising me for "spitting out anti-facist, anti-racist propaganda"? Yes, I am anti-facist and anti-racist. A man's worth (in general or to his nation) is not decided by his race or ethnicity.

          it seems, you are the one creating "the other" by first identifying an "us" being you with whatever dogma you choose to adhere to. then identidying "them" - me and other ultra-natioanlists...and then cleverly proceeding to berate or dehumanize "the other" by making a post which exhibits the following qualities:
          - A sense of moral superiority or authority - what the whole post is about
          - Rigidity of thought (claiming this is what all ultra-nationalists are like..no if's and but's about it)
          -Us vs. Them mentality

          sound familiar enger?
          the difference is that instead of chastising and lambasting the other side, I am inviting them to debate the topic. Instead of claiming that ultranationalists don't care for their country, I say that they do and it is because they care for it so much that they should listen and debate.

          You can spin it any way you want but I have never "berated" or "dehumanized" anyone in this article. I may have called people out on things but that's not dehumanization.

          rant rant rant. i love my nation..i am armenian,therefore i am. this is my mentality and i see nothing wrong with it. at the same time i'm not going to sit here and ridecule you about your philosophy on what is the 'healthy' amount for somone to love ones country. you do what you want lad, unlike you i'm not going to berate or bilittle your nationalist ideal.
          Just remember that you are only Armenian by chance. You could have just as easily been a Turk...or any other ethnicity.

          Again I'd like to see where I berated or belittled anyone's paradigm. I may have critiqued it, but not belittled it.

          OK? whats your point.?
          it seems enger, that you have an engraved hatred for ultra-nationalism. saying that race and ethnicity is a social construct proves that you have a clear idealogical modus operandi, and the above rant is based on this way of tinnking...rather then a genuine a-political attempt at describing the poltical climate of certain members. you succesfully proved that the above Philosophical and Psychological insights are exhibited by people from all strata on the political spectrum. congratulations.
          I have no hatred for ultranationalism, more concerned. I have already pointed out the benefits of ultranationalism in times of national crisis.

          No, saying that race and ethnicity is a social construct just proves that I have expanded my mind by reading anthropology. Governments play on race and ethnicity all the time. Just look at the U.S. How do you think the government garnered so much public support for the Iraq War? They played on Americans' fear of Arabs. The government's stance on immigration from Mexico has a xenophobic tint as well.

          P.S. This isn't an AYF meeting, you don't have to refer to me as "enger".

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

            Originally posted by Armenian View Post
            Hye_Psycho, I think you are being too harsh. The kid pumps gas for work and gets brainwashed at a governmental institution we call college/university. So what depth were you expecting?
            Not surprisingly, you have chosen to respond to my ideas in a passive-aggressive, ad hominem fashion.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

              Yeraz, I thought your essay was very good. Keep it up.
              Between childhood, boyhood,
              adolescence
              & manhood (maturity) there
              should be sharp lines drawn w/
              Tests, deaths, feats, rites
              stories, songs & judgements

              - Morrison, Jim. Wilderness, vol. 1, p. 22

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

                To bad it was nationalists fighting in Artsakh, it was them who were dying there. Not forward thinkers, it were nationalists wo made the country independent. Yes nationalisme is so bad.

                I hope all of you so called free minds will be there when Armenia needs you. But I'm not counting on it. It will be nationalists giving their lifes so the country they love more than their own lifes, more than the life of their families can exist. Think about that

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

                  I thought it was a good essay, presented in a phucking non-confrontational manner, for once.

                  However, I must disagree with your whole premise about the notion that race, ethnicity, etc., is nothing more than a social construct.

                  That it could have been chance that I am Armenian and not a Turk is beside the point.

                  It could be argued that it was chance I was born human and not an ostrich, but that misses the point. That all depends on how one views the world. Do you see everything around you as accident and chance, or intelligent and purposeful?
                  Achkerov kute.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

                    Originally posted by KarotheGreat View Post
                    To bad it was nationalists fighting in Artsakh, it was them who were dying there. Not forward thinkers, it were nationalists wo made the country independent. Yes nationalisme is so bad.

                    I hope all of you so called free minds will be there when Armenia needs you. But I'm not counting on it. It will be nationalists giving their lifes so the country they love more than their own lifes, more than the life of their families can exist. Think about that
                    You are right, it was nationalists who were fighting in Artsakh. I agree that nationalism is a great tool in times of crisis and war. But there comes a time when people need to cool down and look at the geo-political situation of their country rationally. You cannot use the same type of "gung-ho moral war" mentality in diplomacy; that is a recipe for isolation.

                    With the essay I wrote, I was trying to spur a discussion on whether there can be any reconciliation of extreme and moderate nationalism.

                    You must also remember that borders change. One century Artsakh will be ours, the next it might not be. Anyone who looks at the history of Armenia and similar nations around the world will recognize the fact that borders change.
                    Last edited by yerazhishda; 07-03-2008, 12:25 PM.

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