The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

Yeraz, I thought your essay was very good. Keep it up.

Thanks for the encouragement.

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

That it could have been chance that I am Armenian and not a Turk is beside the point.

Not when you're trying to get others to realize the frailty of their ultranationalist paradigms.

It could be argued that it was chance I was born human and not an ostrich, but that misses the point. That all depends on how one views the world. Do you see everything around you as accident and chance, or intelligent and purposeful?

Well that all depends on whether you believe in God or not. If you do believe in God, this life does have meaning. If you do not believe in God whatever you do on this earth will ultimately have no meaning - memory of you ever existing will be destroyed along with the rest of the planet.

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

To bad it was nationalists fighting in Artsakh, it was them who were dying there. Not forward thinkers, it were nationalists wo made the country independent. Yes nationalisme is so bad.

I hope all of you so called free minds will be there when Armenia needs you. But I'm not counting on it. It will be nationalists giving their lifes so the country they love more than their own lifes, more than the life of their families can exist. Think about that

You are right, it was nationalists who were fighting in Artsakh. I agree that nationalism is a great tool in times of crisis and war. But there comes a time when people need to cool down and look at the geo-political situation of their country rationally. You cannot use the same type of "gung-ho moral war" mentality in diplomacy; that is a recipe for isolation.

With the essay I wrote, I was trying to spur a discussion on whether there can be any reconciliation of extreme and moderate nationalism.

You must also remember that borders change. One century Artsakh will be ours, the next it might not be. Anyone who looks at the history of Armenia and similar nations around the world will recognize the fact that borders change.

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

I thought it was a good essay, presented in a phucking non-confrontational manner, for once.

However, I must disagree with your whole premise about the notion that race, ethnicity, etc., is nothing more than a social construct.

That it could have been chance that I am Armenian and not a Turk is beside the point.

It could be argued that it was chance I was born human and not an ostrich, but that misses the point. That all depends on how one views the world. Do you see everything around you as accident and chance, or intelligent and purposeful?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

To bad it was nationalists fighting in Artsakh, it was them who were dying there. Not forward thinkers, it were nationalists wo made the country independent. Yes nationalisme is so bad.

I hope all of you so called free minds will be there when Armenia needs you. But I'm not counting on it. It will be nationalists giving their lifes so the country they love more than their own lifes, more than the life of their families can exist. Think about that

[freakyfreaky]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

Yeraz, I thought your essay was very good. Keep it up.

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

Hye_Psycho, I think you are being too harsh. The kid pumps gas for work and gets brainwashed at a governmental institution we call college/university. So what depth were you expecting?

Not surprisingly, you have chosen to respond to my ideas in a passive-aggressive, ad hominem fashion.

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

i seee you have already started to amend, alter and appropriate difinitions of words, to suit your narrow-minded idealogical agenda...propaganda machine warming up

I am sorry to hear that you take such personal offense at my essay. Yes, I am amending a definition because I did not think that it covers the full meaning of what it means to be an "ultra-nationalist". The definition says that an ultranationalist may be disregard the welfare of other countries. I believe the ultranationalist can be detrimental to the homeland as well.

congratulations for making sweeping generalisations for all ultra-nationalists...based on what 3-4 people you vaguely know?... the machine is rareing to go now..

I think you got me there. I should probably have said "most". I believe that most ultranationalists exhibit the qualities I outlined in my essay. And I based the essay on observations from this forum and other places (other essays, news reports, personal acquantances, etc.)

ahh yet more completly personal observations made by yourself..lambasted here as absolute fact. claiming of moral high ground..an absolute undisputable trait of the bad ultr-nationalists..and never ever an psycological trait carried out by the left... this is what we are to believe?

All essays are personal observations. There is no such thing as a completely "objective" opinion, separate from the subject and anyone who thinks so is deluding themselves. I never claimed this essay was "absolute fact" and I'd like to know where I said that.

Do ultra-nationalists not exhibit a sense of moral superiority?

I never claimed that these couldn't be psychological traits of another group or ideology, because they can be as seen in militant religious groups among others.

well done. the above is 100% true. so what. i am better then a turk or an uncivilised barbarian. race and ethnicity is not a social construct full stop. racial purity is an policy observed and conducted by many nations, and so it should be. these are all positive qualities.

Are you claiming that you are better than all Turks that ever were? What do you mean by "Turk"? An ethnic Turk? Hrant Dink thought of himself as a Turk as well as an Armenian. I hope you aren't claiming to be better than him.

There is no such thing as racial purity. How do you know you are 100% "racially pure"? Do you know your complete geneology?

Please inform me which nations observe policies of racial purity because I currently know of none. Would you have Armenia restrict entrance/citizenship to Armenians only? What about people like Hrant Hovsepyan, a black Armenian serving in the Armenian Army? If someone wants to come in, let them in. Armenia needs more people, not less.

once again these opinions are merely that..random thoughts constructed by you..somone who despises ultra-nationalism...and there for will spit out anti-fascist, anti-race libertarian propaganda to suit your given idealogical dogma.

Where did I say that I despise ultra-nationalism? I think that it can be a good think in small doses and in specific circumstances. I think if you take this ideology to the extreme, Armenia will be the worse off for it.

Are you criticising me for "spitting out anti-facist, anti-racist propaganda"? Yes, I am anti-facist and anti-racist. A man's worth (in general or to his nation) is not decided by his race or ethnicity.

it seems, you are the one creating "the other" by first identifying an "us" being you with whatever dogma you choose to adhere to. then identidying "them" - me and other ultra-natioanlists...and then cleverly proceeding to berate or dehumanize "the other" by making a post which exhibits the following qualities:
- A sense of moral superiority or authority - what the whole post is about
- Rigidity of thought (claiming this is what all ultra-nationalists are like..no if's and but's about it)
-Us vs. Them mentality

sound familiar enger?

the difference is that instead of chastising and lambasting the other side, I am inviting them to debate the topic. Instead of claiming that ultranationalists don't care for their country, I say that they do and it is because they care for it so much that they should listen and debate.

You can spin it any way you want but I have never "berated" or "dehumanized" anyone in this article. I may have called people out on things but that's not dehumanization.

rant rant rant. i love my nation..i am armenian,therefore i am. this is my mentality and i see nothing wrong with it. at the same time i'm not going to sit here and ridecule you about your philosophy on what is the 'healthy' amount for somone to love ones country. you do what you want lad, unlike you i'm not going to berate or bilittle your nationalist ideal.

Just remember that you are only Armenian by chance. You could have just as easily been a Turk...or any other ethnicity.

Again I'd like to see where I berated or belittled anyone's paradigm. I may have critiqued it, but not belittled it.

OK? whats your point.?
it seems enger, that you have an engraved hatred for ultra-nationalism. saying that race and ethnicity is a social construct proves that you have a clear idealogical modus operandi, and the above rant is based on this way of tinnking...rather then a genuine a-political attempt at describing the poltical climate of certain members. you succesfully proved that the above Philosophical and Psychological insights are exhibited by people from all strata on the political spectrum. congratulations.

I have no hatred for ultranationalism, more concerned. I have already pointed out the benefits of ultranationalism in times of national crisis.

No, saying that race and ethnicity is a social construct just proves that I have expanded my mind by reading anthropology. Governments play on race and ethnicity all the time. Just look at the U.S. How do you think the government garnered so much public support for the Iraq War? They played on Americans' fear of Arabs. The government's stance on immigration from Mexico has a xenophobic tint as well.

P.S. This isn't an AYF meeting, you don't have to refer to me as "enger".

[Sip]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

... gets brainwashed at a governmental institution we call college/university....

Similarly, I have heard many kids complain how SAT's are biased ... pretty much always from those that didn't do too well

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

Some things never change. This thread is begging to erupt into another flame war.