The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

[freakyfreaky]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

Who cares? Why are you so caught up with that about him? If you truly believe that's what he is and stands for, then why does it fucking matter? Let him be then and don't take him seriously or respond, otherwise you are just engaging in more character assassination just like you did here, in a carefully crafted manner so as to come off as topical. The same applies to Armenian, or anyone else.

You guys just don't get it. You, me, Armenian, our whole opinions are exactly what they are, insignificant fucking trivial shit engaged in by a bunch of middle class Armenians with too much time on their hands and not enough power to alter policy decisions or even make a dent in the centrifugal forces of world geopolitics, and yet here you guys are acting toward each other like you are a bunch of damn Turks and you cannot wait to get your hands on the others throat to slice it with a scimitar. Get over it. This forum is for discussion and fun, and if you make it a fanatical habit of seeking catharsis and jollies via character assassinations, I will purge everyone from this fucking forum and it will just be a wasteland again as it once was.

Can't you stay in your own thread and can't they stay in their threads? That seems the only viable solution.

I suspect that somewhere on the border between Canada and the Eastern U.S., Ara Baliozian is snickering to himself.

P.S. have you noticed how all of a sudden the RA PM is on an anti-corruption kick, Serge is overhauling his security apparatus and the NSS is being enlisted to crack down on corruption. Hmm...

P.S.S. A nationalist without a nation is like a hoof without a horse.

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

You are confirming my point about stereotypes by mentioning "ultranationalists" on the one hand and "those who express their nationalism more moderately" on the other. First, you don't clarify what "more moderately means", you just use it as the opposite of what you claim to be "ultranationalism". Second, the pure "nationalist" seems to be left out of the picture...That's the missing link in the essay. Again, only my opinion.

The difference is that many ultranationalists use "Us vs. Them" as a way to exclude and berate others (i.e. how many times have you heard "you're not Armenian" justified on the grounds of an ultranationalist moral ideology?).

The ultranationalist tends toward exclusion rather than inclusion.

The moderate tends toward inclusion rather than exclusion.

Neither of these should be taken as absolute statements, however. Both sides can take on traits of the other from time to time.

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

Walter at the bowling alley:

(shouting, holding his Colt .45 pistol in the air)

Has the whole world gone crazy!? Am I the only one here who gives a xxxx about the rules!? Mark it zero! You think I'm xxxxing around?

(xxxxs the hammer of his gun, "click", and says with a fierce, intolerant warrior expression) Mark . . it . . ZERO!

You said it man. Nobody fucks with the Jesus.

Now please for God's sake, let Armenian do his thing and you guys make your own threads and do your thing.

Otherwise I'll get all Walter Sobchak on your asses.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

Maybe I'm not a gifted communicator but what part was I not clear on? I thought I was clear when I said no fucking insults and personalizing and character assasinations and that applies to you both. What the hell is wrong with you two? You are not special and I don't care who you are and what kind of fan following you have. Keep it civil or fuck off.

Walter at the bowling alley:

(shouting, holding his Colt .45 pistol in the air)

Has the whole world gone crazy!? Am I the only one here who gives a xxxx about the rules!? Mark it zero! You think I'm xxxxing around?

(xxxxs the hammer of his gun, "click", and says with a fierce, intolerant warrior expression) Mark . . it . . ZERO!

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

Anonymouse, there are events that are readily considered acts of god and then there are negligent acts and intentional acts. Somethings we control and others we do not.

And, using Armenian as an example, nationality is a social construct.

Here, Armenian is not an Armenian domiciled in Armenia while holding RA citizenship (he probably doesn't have enough clams to buy a passport, ticket to Armenia and three years of living expenses - cuz if he did based on his representations, he'd be there already).

Is Armenian invested in Armenia in any manner, does he do business there, own property, etc.

Or is he as invested as most diasporans, ancestry is from the region, some family members live there, parents were ex-pats before or immediately after he was born.

Yet, he associates himself closer to Armenia than the U.S. while living in the U.S.

He's actually the opposite of some of the 'open-minded' diasporans he so crudely bashes as not acting in Armenia's best interests. One only wonders how its in Armenia's best interests for one diasporan to tell another diasporan that they are not Armenian enough.

Its also somewhat similar to many U.S. j-ews who are more caught up in protecting Israel's interests than U.S. interests.

Who cares? Why are you so caught up with that about him? If you truly believe that's what he is and stands for, then why does it fucking matter? Let him be then and don't take him seriously or respond, otherwise you are just engaging in more character assassination just like you did here, in a carefully crafted manner so as to come off as topical. The same applies to Armenian, or anyone else.

You guys just don't get it. You, me, Armenian, our whole opinions are exactly what they are, insignificant fucking trivial shit engaged in by a bunch of middle class Armenians with too much time on their hands and not enough power to alter policy decisions or even make a dent in the centrifugal forces of world geopolitics, and yet here you guys are acting toward each other like you are a bunch of damn Turks and you cannot wait to get your hands on the others throat to slice it with a scimitar. Get over it. This forum is for discussion and fun, and if you make it a fanatical habit of seeking catharsis and jollies via character assassinations, I will purge everyone from this fucking forum and it will just be a wasteland again as it once was.

Can't you stay in your own thread and can't they stay in their threads? That seems the only viable solution.

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

Anonymouse, there are events that are readily considered acts of god and then there are negligent acts and intentional acts. Somethings we control and others we do not.

And, using Armenian as an example, nationality is a social construct.

Here, Armenian is not an Armenian domiciled in Armenia while holding RA citizenship (he probably doesn't have enough clams to buy a passport, ticket to Armenia and three years of living expenses - cuz if he did based on his representations, he'd be there already).

Is Armenian invested in Armenia in any manner, does he do business there, own property, etc.

Or is he as invested as most diasporans, ancestry is from the region, some family members live there, parents were ex-pats before or immediately after he was born.

Yet, he associates himself closer to Armenia than the U.S. while living in the U.S.

He's actually the opposite of some of the 'open-minded' diasporans he so crudely bashes as not acting in Armenia's best interests. One only wonders how its in Armenia's best interests for one diasporan to tell another diasporan that they are not Armenian enough.

Its also somewhat similar to many U.S. j-ews who are more caught up in protecting Israel's interests than U.S. interests.

Exactly. This is what I have been trying to say all along. If a "nationalist" is going to lambast a diasporan for not being invested in Armenia (as displayed in the article "Who is an Armenian?" - forget who it's by), don't be a hypocrite. At least follow your own dogma.

It illustrates my point about a "romanticized" homeland, which is viewed from afar by a diasporan. Is it that they are afraid that once they get there they will be dissapointed in what they see?

[freakyfreaky]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

I thought it was a good essay, presented in a phucking non-confrontational manner, for once.

However, I must disagree with your whole premise about the notion that race, ethnicity, etc., is nothing more than a social construct.

That it could have been chance that I am Armenian and not a Turk is beside the point.

It could be argued that it was chance I was born human and not an ostrich, but that misses the point. That all depends on how one views the world. Do you see everything around you as accident and chance, or intelligent and purposeful?

Anonymouse, there are events that are readily considered acts of god and then there are negligent acts and intentional acts. Somethings we control and others we do not.

And, using Armenian as an example, nationality is a social construct.

Here, Armenian is not an Armenian domiciled in Armenia while holding RA citizenship (he probably doesn't have enough clams to buy a passport, ticket to Armenia and three years of living expenses - cuz if he did based on his representations, he'd be there already).

Is Armenian invested in Armenia in any manner, does he do business there, own property, etc.

Or is he as invested as some Armenian diasporans, ancestry is from the region, some family members live there, parents were ex-pats before or immediately after he was born.

Yet, he associates himself closer to Armenia than the U.S. while living in the U.S.

He's actually the opposite of some of the 'open-minded' diasporans he so crudely bashes as not acting in Armenia's best interests. One only wonders how its in Armenia's best interests for one diasporan to tell another diasporan that they are not Armenian enough.

Its also somewhat similar to many U.S. j-ews who are more caught up in protecting Israel's interests than U.S. interests.

What Armenian ultra-nationals often overlook is that there are more Armenians outside the country than inside the country, some have no attachment to Armenia other than they are Armenian (because more than 2 generations preceding them are removed from the country or the region). And a lot of these diasporans are far more educated than them.

I opine that ultranationals don't want everybody under the tent because if everyone joins the party the ultranationals message will be lost in competing ideas in the marketplace and they might be left behind.

An Armenian ultranational trapped in the diaspora is completely laughable. Its ridiculous.

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

You may be 'smart' but you don't have - depth. Depth comes with worldly experience and wisdom. At this stage in your life you wouldn't see the "big picture" even if it hit you on the face... Then again, there are older individuals that are ignorant of the world around them, perhaps a majority of mankind. So, as well as it being a matter of worldly experience and wisdom, it also has to do with you as a person.

LOL!!!

rufinkiddingme.

Hey, Armenian, oh most wise and omnipotent one ,care to explain what worldly experience you've amassed under your belt?

Pathos is not wisdom. Megalomania is not wisdom.

Try explaining things in depth Armenian. Otherwise, you just don't make sense on any sort of intellectual plain.

Yeraz, say 'you're welcome' and move on. Don't waste anytime engaging Armenian as he is incapable of engaging in meaningful discourse.

Maybe I'm not a gifted communicator but what part was I not clear on? I thought I was clear when I said no fucking insults and personalizing and character assasinations and that applies to you both. What the hell is wrong with you two? You are not special and I don't care who you are and what kind of fan following you have. Keep it civil or fuck off.

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

yerazhishda, you are just too much into stereotypes. No offence meant, the essay was very well written, but it seems to me that you are also creating 2 categories there: "Us" (the open minded) and "Them" (the nationalists). There is a whiff of demagogy in putting things in those terms.

These aren't stereotypes...these are my observations of the thought processes of many ultranationalists.

It is also not "the open minded" vs. "the nationalists". I presented this essay in an attempt to create dialogue between those who identify themselves as "ultranationalists" and those who express their nationalism more moderately.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: The Case for Siamanto and Other Forward-Thinking Armenians

You may be 'smart' but you don't have - depth. Depth comes with worldly experience and wisdom. At this stage in your life you wouldn't see the "big picture" even if it hit you on the face... Then again, there are older individuals that are ignorant of the world around them, perhaps a majority of mankind. So, as well as it being a matter of worldly experience and wisdom, it also has to do with you as a person.

LOL!!!

rufinkiddingme.

Hey, Armenian, oh most wise and omnipotent one ,care to explain what worldly experience you've amassed under your belt?

Pathos is not wisdom. Megalomania is not wisdom.

Try explaining things in depth Armenian. Otherwise, you just don't make sense on any sort of intellectual plain.

Yeraz, say 'you're welcome' and move on. Don't waste anytime engaging Armenian as he is incapable of engaging in meaningful discourse.