A Shameful fact.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: A Shameful fact.

Yeah, the Britons are not English, English == Germanic Anglo-Saxons that immigrated from Germany and Scandinavia. Britons are a Brythonic people who were displaced by the Angle invasion, the only remaining group of them are the Welsh, Cornish and a few other small groups.

As to whether or not the Britons came from Armenia, it does mention the word Armenia, but in the liner notes it means it was Armorica in Latin, which refer to Gaul, not Armenia, it could be a mistranslation. I'm not saying they coudln't come from Armenia, as many groups migrated out of the Caucasus, Anatolia and the Balkans (the earliest Celtic remains are in Serbia and Montenegro), just that according to most sources it's mistranslation. It's like saying Vartan Mamikonian's family was Chinese, sure, Movses Xorenaci said so, but it's highly debatable.

[retro]

Re: A Shameful fact.

I bed to differ, there is a Spanish and English nation as in ethnicity.
Spain and England have it's own language, culture, history, music, cuisine, historical figures, etc. in other words they are nations.

English descended from the Angles which were a Germanic tribe, that intermarried with Norsemen, some French and a small amount of the indigenous Celtic population. Spaniards descend from Romans, Arabs, xxxs and Celts and Germanics who lived in the region.

Hello Pedro

The Anglo-Saxons like other Western Germanic confedrations, such as the Franks were originally from Northern Germany.

The Jews and Arabs where expelled from Iberia and they never had any major presence in the country. The Spaniards do have some Moorish (Berber) ancestry though and the Berber have very ancient cultural ties to Iberia (the Spanish guitar for example is of Berber origin).

The Phoenicians, Greeks, Germanics and especially Latins had far more influence on Iberia. However Iberia is much the same as it was 2,500 years-ago and the only people that mixed to any extent with the Iberians where the Celts (Celtiberians).

In ancient times the Celtiberians where allied with Carthage against Rome. However the Phoenicians monopoly on trade in the West Mediterranean was broken by Rome during the Punic war and Iberia became a powerful Western province of Rome. As the Celtiberians mined Silver, Gold and other valuable ores, such as Tin which they traded with Phoenicians and this was the secret of Carthage's great wealth.

The Phoenicians, Iberians and Egyptians where amongst the first seafaring peoples to colonise the Mediterranean and the Iberians actual origins are unknown. However the Iberians where not Indo-European peoples like the Latins or Celts, but rather some kind of indigenous peoples.

The Celts where in some sence an intermediary group between Latins and Germanics. As Celtic culture is originally from Hallstatt in Austria (7th century BC) and the Celts where known to the Latins (Cisalpine Gaul) from at least the 6th century BC.

Polybius, a Greek historian, wrote about co-existence of the Celts in northern Italy with Etruscan nations in the period before the Sack of Rome in 390 B.C. According to Livy, a Roman historian, the Celts arrived in these northern Italian regions around the sixth century B.C. However, archaeological sources, in particular compared with Livy's passage documenting the arrival of Bellovesus and his Insubres during the reign of Tarquinius Priscus (sixth century B.C.), along with the founding of Milan in an area yet "inhabited by Insubres", has led Italian and French archaeologists and scholars to date the Celtic presence in Italy to at least the sixth century B.C. if not before.

The Celtiberians in Iberian Peninsula also arose around much the same period.

Strabo cites Ephorus's belief that there were Celts in the Iberian peninsula as far as Cadiz, bringing aspects of Hallstatt culture in the 6th to 5th centuries BC, adopting much of the culture they found. This basal Indo-European culture was of seasonally transhumant cattle-raising pastoralists protected by a warrior elite, similar to those in other areas of Atlantic Europe, centered in the hill-forts, locally termed castros, that controlled small grazing territories. These settlements of circular huts survived until Roman times across the north of Iberia, from Northern Portugal, Asturias and Galicia to the Basque Country.

Celtic presence in Iberia likely dates to as early as the 6th century BC, when the castros evinced a new permanence with stone walls and protective ditches. Archaeologists Martín Almagro Gorbea and Alvarado Lorrio recognize the distinguishing iron tools and extended family social structure of developed Celtiberian culture as evolving from the archaic castro culture which they consider "proto-Celtic".

The Lady of Elche

[Tiko310]

Re: A Shameful fact.

Yeah, the Britons are not English, English == Germanic Anglo-Saxons that immigrated from Germany and Scandinavia. Britons are a Brythonic people who were displaced by the Angle invasion, the only remaining group of them are the Welsh, Cornish and a few other small groups.

As to whether or not the Britons came from Armenia, it does mention the word Armenia, but in the liner notes it means it was Armorica in Latin, which refer to Gaul, not Armenia, it could be a mistranslation. I'm not saying they coudln't come from Armenia, as many groups migrated out of the Caucasus, Anatolia and the Balkans (the earliest Celtic remains are in Serbia and Montenegro), just that according to most sources it's mistranslation. It's like saying Vartan Mamikonian's family was Chinese, sure, Movses Xorenaci said so, but it's highly debatable.

"De tractu Armoricano." -- Bede, "Ecclesiastical History" i.
I. The word Armenia occurring a few lines above in Bede, it
was perhaps inadvertently written by the Saxon compiler of
the "Chronicle" instead of Armorica.

PERHAPS being the keyword.

[hrai]

Re: A Shameful fact.

I bed to differ, there is a Spanish and English nation as in ethnicity.
Spain and England have it's own language, culture, history, music, cuisine, historical figures, etc. in other words they are nations.

English descended from the Angles which were a Germanic tribe, that intermarried with Norsemen, some French and a small amount of the indigenous Celtic population. Spaniards descend from Romans, Arabs, xxxs and Celts and Germanics who lived in the region.

It's not quite as simple as that........Spain & Portugal were encouraged to explore and control and divided the world through an agreement brokered by the pope in Rome.
There wasn't an English Empire, it was a British Empire and many of the greatest driving forces of it were Irish, Scottish & Welsh.

As regards Angles, don't forget the Saxons (Sachsen, Germany) or Jutes (Jutland, Germany/denmark). There was probably quite a lot of mixing with the local population which had been Romanised for a few hundred years. BTW, the Celts were not indigenous to the Britain, they migrated from Eurasia.

[hrai]

Re: A Shameful fact.

Hello Pedro

The Anglo-Saxons like other Western Germanic confedrations, such as the Franks were originally from Northern Germany.

The Jews and Arabs where expelled from Iberia and they never had any major presence in the country. The Spaniards do have some Moorish (Berber) ancestry though and the Berber have very ancient cultural ties to Iberia (the Spanish guitar for example is of Berber origin).

Really??? Really??? Really???

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: A Shameful fact.

"De tractu Armoricano." -- Bede, "Ecclesiastical History" i.
I. The word Armenia occurring a few lines above in Bede, it
was perhaps inadvertently written by the Saxon compiler of
the "Chronicle" instead of Armorica.

PERHAPS being the keyword.

I'm not arguing with perhaps, it could be Armenian sure. However Armorica is much more plausible as Gauls were Celts, did live nearby and therefore could more easily travel to British Isles than going from across the Mediterannean, Caucasus Mountains or the Black Sea. Also, there is pre-existing ties between Gaul and Britons, there are Britons living in northern France at present, hence it's much more plausible.

Again I'm not saying it couldn't be Armenian, just applying Occam's Razor.

As to the rest :

Germanics == from Germany and Scandinavia, so yes I did say that if I recall. Hence Angles being from Northern Germany explains their origins. Celts are indigenous to the extent that they first culture that can be documented in the region. No one is really entirely "indigenous" in the term of always from there, as Indo-Europeans anyway migrated out of Central Asia, Northern India or Anatolia. If we believe popular consensus then we all migrated out of Africa anyway.

Still Britons != English. The brunt of the force might have been from conquered people in Kingdom, but it doesn't change that it was English culture that was imposed (Irish people speak English today for a reason, Catholics are treated like xxxx for a reason), believe me, the English were not kind to the Scots, Irish and Welsh, it ultimately benefitted England and the royalty.

As to the Spaniards, they do have Arab ancestry, according to a lot of DNA studies. What's more is after 700 years of being under Arab dominion, they had a large extent of Arab blood. Remember not ALL Arabs were forced out, those who converted to Christianity stayed, same with the xxxs.

Arabs had a HUGE presense like hrai pointed out, they were the rulers of Al-Andalus that had a HUGE cultural marking on Spain.
Also the guitar != Berber, it's a Persian instrument, you can feel free to research, but it stretched out of Iran and was adapted from the earlier Barbat.

The name itself is Persian with the suffix -tar meaning stringed.
Hence Setar, Qitar, etc.

[retro]

Re: A Shameful fact.

As to the Spaniards, they do have Arab ancestry, according to a lot of DNA studies. What's more is after 700 years of being under Arab dominion, they had a large extent of Arab blood. Remember not ALL Arabs were forced out, those who converted to Christianity stayed, same with the xxxs.

Arabs had a HUGE presense like hrai pointed out, they were the rulers of Al-Andalus that had a HUGE cultural marking on Spain.
Also the guitar != Berber, it's a Persian instrument, you can feel free to research, but it stretched out of Iran and was adapted from the earlier Barbat.

The name itself is Persian with the suffix -tar meaning stringed.
Hence Setar, Qitar, etc.

Moorish Spain was not Arab and the North Africans are Arabised-Berbers, not Arabs. Iberians do have Berber associations and like other Mediterraneans, they mixed with the Phoenicians to a certain extent. However the Iberians have very little Arab or Sephardic ancestry and they had next to no influence upon Iberia, outside of the south.

The Persians did not invent stringed instuments and North Africa is a ancient cultural centre in it's own right.

Qasr Libya Museum - Berber Guitar (4th century BC)



Not all Berbers have been Arabised and the Berbers are a very ancient Afroasiatic peoples. The Semites are Western Asians, who acculturated Afroasiatic languages. However Afroasiatic has Northern/Eastern African origins. Which is why the Ancient Egyptians for example spoke an Afroasiatic language.

[retro]

Re: A Shameful fact.

As regards Angles, don't forget the Saxons (Sachsen, Germany) or Jutes (Jutland, Germany/denmark). There was probably quite a lot of mixing with the local population which had been Romanised for a few hundred years. BTW, the Celts were not indigenous to the Britain, they migrated from Eurasia.

Whilst Scandinavians are for the most part indigenous European peoples. Not all the Germanics people came from Scandinavia and these are tribal confederations, rather than distinctive peoples. Although the Celts and Norse invaded and colonised the British isles in waves, before the Latins or Western Germanics. As you point out, the Celts were by no means the first people to inhabit the British isles.

The Celts first emerged as a culture in Hallstatt in Austria and are of Indo-European, Eurasiatic origins. As the Celts culture, mythology and societal structure was extremely Indo-European. In my opinion, the Indo-Europeans and Semitic pantheons where greatly influenced by Sumer. Quite possibly, since writing first developed in Southern Mesopotamia. Along with more organised forms of religion and society. As was also the case in Ancient Egypt.

So for example the Morrigan: Celtic goddess of war, death, prophecy and passionate love. Is a very similar archetype to the Sumerian goddess of sexual love, fertility and warfare: Inanna (Ishtar/Mesopotamia).

[Christina]

Re: A Shameful fact.

What a world we live in. Parents from Armenia or Lebanon, etc. They are fluent in the language. Their children can speak it-
but not read or write it. I can not read it well, but I can write it. I know some that are Eastern Armenian, born there,
and speak it, but can not write it. One EA speaker said he can not understand Western Armenian when it is spoken.
He said there are some words is different. That is his opinion.

[arakeretzig]

Re: A Shameful fact.

Armenian is not easy to learn. I had armenian upbringing, talked arabafied western armenian since i was kid, and went to armenian school, and inspite all of that, i'm still not fluent at it. so how do you expect a child born in glendale to learn it? you need armenian schools, speaking armenian at home, all those factors must be taken care of.
Western vs eastern armenian differences don't help either.