Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

BTC's finest moment:

Genocide is not a "legal word".

"Great Calamity" will be a far more accurate translation of what those who first used the phrase meant by its use.

Right up Turkey's alley!

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

From "For My Fatherland" by A. Aharonian, Chapter 10, "Tebi Medz Yegherni Vosdana" ("Heading For The Capital City of The Great Crime")


Knoum em Medz Yegherni kaghaka, ayn nzovadz hnotsa oor tarpnvetsin polor tzhokhayin tsavera, polor vojirnera, hai ashkhari ou zhoghovrti tem.


I am on my way to the capital city of the Great Crime, that accursed forge where all the hellish afflictions and crimes against the Armenian world and people were born.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

BTC is very good at getting off topic and throwing pebbles at what other people say. But what does BTC say? It's very unclear.

The topic of this thread is the proper translation into English of the Armenian term "Medz Yeghern". I have heard much jingling of the cat's bell, but little sense. What does BTC propose to call the Armenian Genocide in English--if anything??? Let BTC please answer that question for all to see.

From "For My Fatherland" by A. Aharonian, Chapter 10, "Tebi Medz Yegherni Vosdana" ("Heading For The Capital City of The Great Crime")


Knoum em Medz Yegherni kaghaka, ayn nzovadz hnotsa oor tarpnvetsin polor tzhokhayin tsavera, polor vojirnera, hai ashkhari ou zhoghovrti tem.


I am on my way to the capital city of the Great Crime, that accursed forge where all the hellish afflictions and crimes against the Armenian world and people were born.

You egotistical online Armenians are beneath contempt. You whine and wail about "your" genocide, on and on and on - and it's always drivel, dross swept from an empty cellar. If you really cared about the Armenian Genocide as a subject you would simply shut your ignorant mouth.

[londontsi]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

You egotistical online Armenians are beneath contempt.

That is exactly how I feelings towards you based on your postings.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

BTC is very good at getting off topic and throwing pebbles at what other people say. But what does BTC say? It's very unclear.

The topic of this thread is the proper translation into English of the Armenian term "Medz Yeghern". I have heard much jingling of the cat's bell, but little sense. What does BTC propose to call the Armenian Genocide in English--if anything??? Let BTC please answer that question for all to see.

That's the standard "Armenian way" of working to a conclusion. Though, from experience, I'm surprised it took you all of 4 pages of posts to get there.

You started from "I can't tell you how really grateful I am to you". You are not much of an true Armenian if it takes you an enormous four pages to get from that to "I have heard much jingling of the cat's bell, but little sense. What does BTC propose to call the Armenian Genocide in English--if anything???" You really have to work on those paranoia and back-stabbing skills!

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diranakir
BTC is very good at getting off topic and throwing pebbles at what other people say. But what does BTC say? It's very unclear.
The topic of this thread is the proper translation into English of the Armenian term "Medz Yeghern". I have heard much jingling of the cat's bell, but little sense. What does BTC propose to call the Armenian Genocide in English--if anything??? Let BTC please answer that question for all to see.

BTC's comment:
That's the standard "Armenian way" of working to a conclusion. Though, from experience, I'm surprised it took you all of 4 pages of posts to get there.
You started from "I can't tell you how really grateful I am to you". You are not much of an true Armenian if it takes you an enormous four pages to get from that to "I have heard much jingling of the cat's bell, but little sense. What does BTC propose to call the Armenian Genocide in English--if anything???" You really have to work on those paranoia and back-stabbing skills!

===============================================
Diranakir's response:
Yes, I was grateful to you for the Mouradian article and still am. But I was completely puzzled by your subsequent statement that you were "almost certain" that the term in question DOES NOT (your emphasis) mean Great Crime. The key paragraph in the Mouradian article clearly uses the word "crime" FOUR TIMES, and SPECIFICALLY translates Medz Yeghern as GREAT CRIME. My only conclusion was that you had filed the article away without reading it.

The other interesting thing about this is that you referred to the Armenian Weekly as a thing of the past, whereas it continues to exist with great vigor. That I can't account for either.

Your suggestion of Great Calamity for rendering the meaning of Medz Yeghern into English is not well taken or supported by the linguistic evidence. It is furthermore unfortunate that in taking this name that Armenians gave their genocide before Lemkin created the word and turning it into something it is not, the indirect effect is to downgrade the Armenian Genocide from a crime to an impersonal calamity, something that dovetails very nicely with the denialist stance.

Since Obama "borrowed" the term, Armenians should be very clear on what it means. This is not the time for beating around the bush.



================================================
from Post #18 by Bell

I am also almost certain that "metz yegern" DOES NOT mean "Great Crime".

Post #5 (from Armenian Weekly article by Mouradian)

Survivors of the Armenian Genocide used a number of terms to refer to
the destruction of their people in the Ottoman Empire. In the
editorials under study, the term most commonly and consistently used
from the 1920s to the present is Yeghern (Crime/Catastrophe), or
variants like Medz Yeghern (Great Crime) and Abrilian Yeghern (the
April Crime). Other terms include Hayasbanutyun (Armenocide), Medz
Voghperkutyun (Great Tragedy), Medz Vogchagez (Great Holocaust), Medz
Nahadagutyun (Great Martyrdom), Aghed (Catastrophe), Medz Nakhjir and
Medz Sbant (both, Great Massacre), Medz Potorig (Great Storm), Sev
Vojir (Black Crime) and, after 1948, Tseghasbanutyun (Genocide), or
variants like Haygagan Tseghasbanutyun and Hayots Tseghasbanutyun
(both, Armenian Genocide).

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

WRONG! ! ! A pathetic mistake! A complete failure to understand the meaning of the term and a consequent blunder of the worst sort! This is precisely why Obama used the term! It's time to get it right and not depend on "patriotic spokesmen" whose acuity goes unquestioned.

http://www.lemagan.com/newsDet.php?languageid=1&newsid=46&newsType=N

You may want to know that "Meds Yeghern" does not mean genocide; it means "Great Calamity." Armenians used that term before the word "genocide" was coined by Raphael Lemkin in the 1940's. "Genocide" in Armenian is "Tseghasbanoutyoun," which is a much more precise term than "Meds Yeghern," in case you decide to use it in the future.

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

There are two models one can follow:

Model A: The only important thing is whether or not the President utters the G-Word (either in English or Armenian). That is the long and the short of it.

If he doesn't, it doesn't matter at all how you translate whatever Armenian term he uses. You can tell him that it only means calamity, catastrophe, bad luck, etc., but nothing approaching genocide and that he therefore abysmally failed to say genocide. Gotcha! You can say that the true Armenian name for genocide is tseghaspanoutiun and be dismissive of the previous term Armenians used for it (which, after all, was the first major genocide of the century and not one they would have referred to as applying to a host of other people, whose genocides followed). The condescending implication is that they had a pretty good word for what happened to them to serve the purpose until the really right one was given to them! The fact is, they had a very fine name for it, one that served as a perfect precedent for the ultimate concept. That being the case, it shouldn't be corrupted or downgraded for mere rhetorical purposes. It's history is far too important for that.



Model B: It makes a big difference how the first name Armenians used to designate their genocide is translated.

The principal name they gave it designates a crime, not a series of unfortunate events (although there are many names for those other concepts). By "Medz Yeghern" they meant their genocide. It is likely that Raphael Lemkin was well acquainted with the true meaning of the Armenian term and inspired by it to pursue his concept of an international crime against humanity. "Calamity" wouldn't have had that power.

Conclusion: If the President uses "Meds Yeghern" and there are two possible translations of the term into English, one of which is "Great Crime" and the other of which is "Great Calamity", which one of those meanings leaves the President closer to recognizing The Genocide than the other? Why would we choose the meaning that leaves him further from it? Just to make a point? That position is grossly irresponsible and shortsighted.

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

'You may want to know that "Meds Yeghern" does not mean genocide; it means "Great Calamity." Armenians used that term before the word "genocide" was coined by Raphael Lemkin in the 1940's. "Genocide" in Armenian is "Tseghasbanoutyoun," which is a much more precise term than "Meds Yeghern," in case you decide to use it in the future.'

Statements like this in 2009 only encouraged the President to REPEAT his performance in 2010 when he used MY not just twice but THREE times. He was only too happy to use a word that he was assured did not mean genocide, in the hope that some Armenians would think he did. In the process, Medz Yeghern was gutted of its core meaning, reduced to a meaningless Calamity and deprived of its close affinity with the crime named genocide.

This has the effect of distancing the Armenian Genocide from the Jouwish Holocaust, which is of prime importance to AG denialists. They work hard every day trying to demolish the last vestiges of the connective tissue between the two genocides. It is unfortunate that in adopting a cavalier and roughshod attitude toward the Armenian language too many own goals are being suffered.

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

The following is what the self-appointed patriotic spokesman SHOULD have said in his open letter to the President, if he was really concerned with linguistic precision:

"You may want to know that 'Meds Yeghern' is the term Armenians used for their genocide before Raphael Lemkin coined the term. It means "Great Crime" and precisely reflects their understanding of what they had suffered. If you still feel inclined to use the term again next year instead of referring in plain English to the Armenian Genocide, this should be very clear to you."