An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

[Azar]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

Most in Azerbaijan refrain from using the word "Azeri".

We say Azerbaijani Turks.

Do not lie. Even in Iran mostly people refer to Azeris as Turks.

That's false, in Iran, Azaris are not called "Torks", they are called "Azari".

No one says "bevin een marde Torki" they say "bevin een marde Azari".

I don't like being accused of being a liar, please back up your point. I am also very surprised that you as an Azeri would prefer to be called a Turk, I have encountered many Turks who try to play off as being Azerbaijani for their own personal gain, are you one of them?

The following is a post I made in another thread, just re-emphasizing factual information that has been known by Iranian and Azerbaijani intellectuals for years:

In the 11th century A.D. with Seljukid conquests, Oghuz Turkic tribes started moving across the Iranian plateau into the Caucasus and Anatolia. The influx of the Oghuz and other Turkmen tribes was further accentuated by the Mongol invasion.[1] Here, the Oghuz tribes divided into various smaller groups, some of whom – mostly Sunni – moved to Anatolia (i.e., the Ottomans) and became settled, while others remained in the Caucasus region and later ... from 13th century onwards they gradually Turkified the Iranian-speaking populations of Azerbaijan, thus creating a new identity based on Shiism and the use of Oghuz Turkic. However, it is notable that the Turkification of Azaris was completed only by the late 1800s, while the old Iranic speakers can still be found in tiny isolated recesses of the mountains or other remote areas (such as Harzand, Galin Guya, Shahrud villages in Khalkhal and Anarjan). Today, this Turkic-speaking population is also known as Azeris.[2]

The Iranian origins of the Azeris likely derive from ancient Iranic tribes, such as the Medes in Iranian Azarbaijan, and Scythian invaders who arrived during the eighth century BCE. It is believed that the Medes mixed with Mannai.[3]

A recent study of the genetic landscape of Iran was completed by a team of Cambridge geneticists led by Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab (an Iranian Azarbaijani).[4][5] The study found that the Azerbaijanis of Iran do not have a similar FSt and other genetic markers found in Anatolian and European Turks. However, the genetic Fst and other genetic traits like MRca and mtDNA of Iranian Azeris were identical to Persians in Iran.

Northern Azerbaijanis celebrating Nowruz (a traditional Iranian celebration marking the Persian new year):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v_Lrbf606c

Azerbaijani website glorifying the Iranian celebration of Nowruz:

http://azeri.org/Azeri/az_english/22_folder/22_articles/22_noruz.html

Azerbaijani men and women dancing in traditional clothes, akin to cultures of the Caucasus:


Young Azerbaijanis with normal Iranian phenotypes:


1. "Encyclopedia Iranica. C. E. Bosworth. Arran". Retrieved 2009-06-29.
2. Roy, Olivier (2007). The new Central Asia. I.B. Tauris. p. 6.
3. "Encyclopedia Iranica, "Mannea", by R. Zadok".
4. "Maziar Ashrafian Bonab", Department of Genetics, University of Cambridge . Retrieved 9 June 2006.
5. "Cambridge Genetic Study of Iran", ISNA (Iranian Students News Agency), 06-12-2006, news-code: 8503-06068 . Retrieved 9 June 2006.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

Azerbaijanis speak a Turkic language, however they are racially and culturally not Turkic. They are of Iranic origin, it was due to the invasions and expansions into Azerbaijan in 9th century by Turks, that modern day Azeris speak a Turkic language.

Yes, so why did you appear to say the opposite of this in your OP?

there is a large difference between Iranian-Azerbaijanis and actual "Azerbaijanis". Now you may think that most of us from the various videos on Youtube from "Azeris", think we're Turks and want to have Turkish language schools. No, we think we're Iranian, we know we're Persian from facts and we have always been.

You appeared to be claiming that "Iranian-Azerbaijanis" are not Turkic in origin("we know we are Persian"), but "actual Azerbaijanis" are.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

That's false, in Iran, Azaris are not called "Torks", they are called "Azari".

No one says "bevin een marde Torki" they say "bevin een marde Azari".

Azerbaijan until 1918 was a geographical region, and not a country name derived from an ethnic group that called itself "Azeri". And it still is a region in its Iranian context. Which suggests that if someone in Iran were to call someone an "Azari" it will mean they are referring to where they are from, rather than what ethnicity they are. And if someone calls themselves a "Turk", or is called a "Turk", they are referring to ethnicity.

[Eddo211]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

As far As I know Turks and Azaris in Iran are ethnicities, nothing more. They consider themselves Iranis first and foremost and are worlds apart from Anatolian Turks and people from Azerbajian. Some have even turned to the Armenian churches. I know a few of them who have left Iran about the same time I did.

[retro]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

As far As I know Turks and Azaris in Iran are ethnicities, nothing more. They consider themselves Iranis first and foremost and are worlds apart from Anatolian Turks and people from Azerbajian. Some have even turned to the Armenian churches. I know a few of them who have left Iran about the same time I did.

Well by Azar's own admission is in no small part a interloper to the region. Yet since he has integrated into it he feels entitled to assume it's cultural identity and heritage. Which I suppose is fair enough since peoples cultural or national loyalties are hardly always depended upon ethnicity.

[Eddo211]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

Yes and it is unlike us Armenian Iranians.........we have a national loyalty to Iran but on the other hand our cultural loyalty remains Armenian.

The Persians understand us well, they know that we give allegiance to Iran as citizens but we maintain unshakable holly oath to mother Armenia and her survival. They actually respect that and understand it. They celebrate (used to during Shah's time) Christmas with us and we celebrated Norouz with them.

These things about Azari roots are very confusing to me. It seems from Azar's posted photos that the Irani Azaris also maintain some connection to their own culture?
However I agree that Azerbajian itself is nothing but a satellite state of Turkey as mentioned before. Most of them see themselves as Turks and we must consider them as such until it changes somehow. (this way it is easier for my brain)

[retro]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

"The Iranian origins of the Azeris likely derive from ancient Iranic tribes, such as the Medes in Iranian Azarbaijan, and Scythian invaders who arrived during the eighth century BCE. It is believed that the Medes mixed with Mannai."

Without wishing to seem pretentious, Wikipedia is really not a very authoritative source. Whilst it's true that Iranian Azeris do have some Indo-European and Iranic ancestry, so do most Turkic Turks and this in it's self is of little significance.

Not all Scythians where Indo-Iranic's, as the Scythians where a inter-related, tribal confederacy and many either where or later became Turkic.

Buddha was a Saka prince and the Indo-Europeans most likely introduced Buddhism, to China. As the Tokharian people of the Tarim Basin practiced Buddhism, which is as you may know originally from India. Which is coincidently where the Tokharian mostly ended up to after being rather ungraciously displaced by the Uyghurs.

It's from the Indo-Europeans/Indo-Iranics, that Northern Mesopotamian peoples mastered of the Art of mounted warfare and they where greatly influenced by Urartuan and Mesopotamian cultures.

"The finding of the rug among treasures of the finest textile works of that period, textiles that were collected from as far away as China and others that might have come from Hellenistic area and culture, suggest that the Scythian aristocrat was during his lifetime a reigning king or prince at the cross roads of Chinese, Hellenistic, Assyrian and Urartuan culture. Only lately have the archaeologists found proof of the importance of the state of Urartu and of its artistic achievements. Hans-Jorg Kellner, Director of the Praehistoric State-Collection in Munich gives us in his catalogue to a recent exhibition, an idea of the importance of the state of Urartu from the 9th to the 6th century B.C. Similarly, only a few years ago excavations have brought to light metal objects, especially buckles, that show the style of such people. It is a repetition of certain animals in a row, among them many that are influenced by Assyrian and later on even Scythian conceptions. If we want to locate the origin of the Pazyryk rug, we have to get back to the people who lived in Urartu and were conquered towards the middle of the 6th century B.C. by the Scythians."

http://rbedrosian.com/Classic/Paz/paz1.htm

The Sakha Turks are rather unusual in so far that that they profess a odd mix of Orthodox Christianity and Turkic Shamanism.

If you take a look at this video of these Yakutian ladies you will see what I meant earlier by Indo-Iranic/Turkic admixture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJcQhN9dL1c

Whilst the majority Turkic Yakutian people in North Eastern Russia are on the whole very Asian. Many of them have Russian, ancestry. As half the population of the Sakha Republic is ethnic Russian. However below the surface far more has been going on there than at first meets the eye.

Genetic studies in 1986 of the characteristics of the Yakut people found many with European features - not surprizingly by that time, but also that the majority of the Yakut people had factor B17 in their blood which is only found in one other place. That is in Northern India. The DNA codes of the Sakha show a rare combination of antigens HLA-A1 and HLA-B17 that is also found in Indian DNA. No other mongoloid group has the HLA-A1 antigen. This indicates a definite link that the modern Sakha people came from the ancient Saka who ruled north-east India and Pakistan some two thousand years ago.

http://www.cosmicelk.net/Yakutia16c.htm

[retro]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

However I agree that Azerbajian itself is nothing but a satellite state of Turkey as mentioned before. Most of them see themselves as Turks and we must consider them as such until it changes somehow. (this way it is easier for my brain)

Fighting a war by proxy is a dirty game. Azeris look like mercs and dupes to me. Drawn from different Turkic regions and admixed with locals. Further more, the Turk wisely limits the number of Azeris in his own land. Now if only he could do the same thing with the Kurds, he might actually be getting somewhere.

[Azar]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

Yes, so why did you appear to say the opposite of this in your OP?

You appeared to be claiming that "Iranian-Azerbaijanis" are not Turkic in origin("we know we are Persian"), but "actual Azerbaijanis" are.

That was not what I was trying to say, I apologize if I came off that way mate.

[Azar]

Re: An open message from an Iranian-Azerbaijani

Without wishing to seem pretentious, Wikipedia is really not a very authoritative source. Whilst it's true that Iranian Azeris do have some Indo-European and Iranic ancestry, so do most Turkic Turks and this in it's self is of little significance.

Not all Scythians where Indo-Iranic's, as the Scythians where a inter-related, tribal confederacy and many either where or later became Turkic.

Buddha was a Saka prince and the Indo-Europeans most likely introduced Buddhism, to China. As the Tokharian people of the Tarim Basin practiced Buddhism, which is as you may know originally from India. Which is coincidently where the Tokharian mostly ended up to after being rather ungraciously displaced by the Uyghurs.

It's from the Indo-Europeans/Indo-Iranics, that Northern Mesopotamian peoples mastered of the Art of mounted warfare and they where greatly influenced by Urartuan and Mesopotamian cultures.



The Sakha Turks are rather unusual in so far that that they profess a odd mix of Orthodox Christianity and Turkic Shamanism.

If you take a look at this video of these Yakutian ladies you will see what I meant earlier by Indo-Iranic/Turkic admixture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJcQhN9dL1c

Whilst the majority Turkic Yakutian people in North Eastern Russia are on the whole very Asian. Many of them have Russian, ancestry. As half the population of the Sakha Republic is ethnic Russian. However below the surface far more has been going on there than at first meets the eye.

I appreciate the information, and I would advise you to take a look at Kaveh Farrokh's rebuttals, he covers most Pan-Turkic falsehoods including the attempts at making Scythians seem Turkic.

http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/articles/pan-turanism/