Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

[Mos]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Great example of how living next to islamic countries for so long has rubbed off on armenians. Just mark my words these guys who are against women going to night clubs today will be the same ones to institutionilize hijab for armenian women. It is a slippery slope with these guys if you give them an inch they will take a mile and pretty soon things like education, driving a car, being in public wo husband .. will not be allowed for women. Everything wrong will be blamed on women and more of their rights will be taken away. If you do not stand up for your rights then you will lose them - just look at America and the passing of NDAA. Ironically enough it is a woman judge who is blocking the NDAA from taking effect by declaring it unconstitutional which it is. Most of the problems with women today revolve around the fact that materialism has taken a firm grip over them as well as males not because of anything else. Materialism is the western quality (capitalist actually) that i do dislike but there are good qualities coming from the west to which is why villifying it the way you guys do is wrong. Materialism effects both men and women yet you guys only focus on the problems relating to women. To put it mildly it is naive to blame everything on the west or women and to think that keeping her home will fix any of these problems. If you want to live the way you describe then guys please move to Saudi Arabia and you will be in the land of female repression you have been dreaming about all along.

No one here is talking about institutionalizing hijab. Actually many decent Armenians parents will not let their daughter go to a dance club, because we all know what happens there. I don't understand why looking after your daughter would be considered a bad thing. Make sure she dresses well, she doesn't go to places where she'll be under danger, all are routine things in my view. Materialism is also an issue, I will give you that, though it comes naturally with capitalism, though that being said, communist economic model is quite horrible also. Materialism in the West has gotten to the point of where it can be compared to Paganism. We can never get rid of materialism all together, neither practical or possible, but by emphasizing the values of God, values of family, emphasizing your nation's culture and patriotism, you can balance that materialism. Since I don't want communist economics. Economically I tend to favour a freer approach though that's a whole different discussion.

I think the above is as clear a confirmation as you can get that Mos is a fundamentalist Muslim. Every word he has posted on this thread, and most of what he has posted over the years on this forum would agree with that conclusion. Of course he will deny it - but we have to remember that Muslims believe that it is permisable to lie and be deceitful if it advances the cause of Islam.

So only fundamentalist Muslims don't allow their daughters to go to dance clubs? I guess most decent Armenian families are fundamentalist Muslim according to you? We have a conservative, Christian society, so we are not going to be as liberal and open as Western European, but we're certainly not fundamentalist Muslims, that's a whole different level that I never talked about.

I don't go to clubs so I wouldn't know, but I imagine it's the same reason we don't see convicts there either -- they lack the freedom to choose to go.

Well more it's because they know their parents wouldn't let them go to such a place, and the punishment for doing it would be pretty severe. I wouldn't my daughter to go to such a club because I know what's going to happen to her there. She might be naive and think that she'll always be in control, but can tragically be wrong. Women need to be examples of modesty and elegance, their purity and values cherished, they respected for who they are, rather than respected for having good legs or being tools that every other guy uses. It's a differing mindset from the mindset of women that freely go to dance clubs, freely get used by other men, and so forth.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

I think the above is as clear a confirmation as you can get that Mos is a fundamentalist Muslim. Every word he has posted on this thread, and most of what he has posted over the years on this forum would agree with that conclusion. Of course he will deny it - but we have to remember that Muslims believe that it is permisable to lie and be deceitful if it advances the cause of Islam.

Joey: What are... What are you wearing?
Lacey: Shorts.
Joey: Shorts? That's... That's a Maxi Pad.
Lacey: Dad, they're designer shorts. They're French. Goodbye.

Joey: With what you are wearing, you are attracting guys who wear their pants around their ass.

Joey: Please take the bikini pictures off of your facebook page.

Joey: When you're living in my house, you're a Taliban! Okay? You keep your body a secret. Except you get to, you know, go to school and read books.

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

If you are getting groped at work and feel uncomfortable then maybe you shouldn't be an exotic dancer. Public transportation? You know those japanese groping and porn videos aren't real right?

Well more it's because they know their parents wouldn't let them go to such a place, and the punishment for doing it would be pretty severe. I wouldn't my daughter to go to such a club because I know what's going to happen to her there. She might be naive and think that she'll always be in control, but can tragically be wrong. Women need to be examples of modesty and elegance, their purity and values cherished, they respected for who they are, rather than respected for having good legs or being tools that every other guy uses. It's a differing mindset from the mindset of women that freely go to dance clubs, freely get used by other men, and so forth.

Do you guys seriously not get it? Keeping women out of the clubs isn't going to protect them because these situations are wide-spread.
You can see a woman's body in everything but a sack much like a burka. It's societal attitudes and tolerance of this kind of thing that is the problem. Take yourselves as an example.
You have a woman telling you that we get harassed in other settings too and you've both made jokes and/or dismissed it.

You who claim to care, to be one of the good guys, to want protect women... Perhaps your behaviors should reflect the attitudes you express.
Otherwise, I'm more inclined to believe how you act more accurately reflects your true beliefs and so far, you're mocking a pretty serious issue.

This sort of thing (http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/3086...are-this-story) happens far more than you know...

If I stop reading the book I enjoy to talk to you, random stranger, you hit on me or just stay way too close to me. If I tell you to leave me alone, you get mad at me. Because I somehow, as a woman, owe you conversation.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Do you guys seriously not get it? Keeping women out of the clubs isn't going to protect them because these situations are wide-spread.
You can see a woman's body in everything but a sack much like a burka. It's societal attitudes and tolerance of this kind of thing that is the problem. Take yourselves as an example.
You have a woman telling you that we get harassed in other settings too and you've both made jokes and/or dismissed it.

You who claim to care, to be one of the good guys, to want protect women... Perhaps your behaviors should reflect the attitudes you express.
Otherwise, I'm more inclined to believe how you act more accurately reflects your true beliefs and so far, you're mocking a pretty serious issue.

This sort of thing (http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/3086...are-this-story) happens far more than you know...

We make jokes because there are more men who would stand up to another man mistreating a woman in public than there are those that would mistreat a woman. Who do you think creates policies about harassment at the work place? There are so many laws to protect women that the things you insist happen are most likely rare or propaganda by the media. Probably the reason why so many guys in big cities are gay and so many women walk about like they rule the streets.

[Mos]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Do you guys seriously not get it? Keeping women out of the clubs isn't going to protect them because these situations are wide-spread.
You can see a woman's body in everything but a sack much like a burka. It's societal attitudes and tolerance of this kind of thing that is the problem. Take yourselves as an example.
You have a woman telling you that we get harassed in other settings too and you've both made jokes and/or dismissed it.

You who claim to care, to be one of the good guys, to want protect women... Perhaps your behaviors should reflect the attitudes you express.
Otherwise, I'm more inclined to believe how you act more accurately reflects your true beliefs and so far, you're mocking a pretty serious issue.

This sort of thing (http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/3086...are-this-story) happens far more than you know...

I still don't understand how you can equate going to a dance club with going to the supermarket or walking down the street. Let's talk in terms of probability. The probability of getting groped and used at a dance club is .40 while getting groped in the supermarket is .002 while getting groped in a crowded bus is .01. So as you see the parent would be making a wise decision. I'm not saying it's not possible to get groped in bus, but it's much more probable to get groped in dance club.

I care about protecting the traditional construct of what it means to be a woman. I'm not going to protect this new, liberal concept where woman walks all over the man, where the woman acts like a man, where the woman has a disregard to her duties are home and to her family, when a woman thinks traditional gender roles are "sexist", and so forth. That's a mindset that destroys.

[Haykakan]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Uday and Qusay here will never learn so it might be better to save your energy on something more productive Siggie. Their inability to learn and reason is pretty profound if you think about it. Mos still likes capitalism despite all the xxxx it causes including the very problem he is complaining about and he only sees things in black or white like your either a capitalist or a communist and nothing in between can , has nor will ever exist. Kanadahye is just as dense but he has a sense of humor which makes him bearable at times. It is not easy for a man to understand what women go through because we men have our own issues to deal with. Most healthy young men have a extremely strong sex drive which is hard to control-much harder then for women and seeing a sexy attractive woman drives things into overdrive. This is not an excuse but it is a fact and as in the article you posted even when a pretty woman dresses modestly and acts uninterested men will still hit on her because the urge is so strong. Many men might not understand what a woman goes through but many women dont understand what a man has to go through either. Putting togather such strong sexual urges and the physical strength and size advantage that men have over women puts women in a difficult situation where they can be physically threatened and abused while men do not need to deal with a similar threat from women. Sure women can be manipulative etc.. but so can men but most women will always be at a physical disadvantage to men because of biology. Both sexes have their issues but one on one the female is at a distinct disadvantage as the article clearly illustrates. While both sexes can be victimized by the other it is the female who gets victimized by far more then the male even in societies with favorable divorce rates for females like here in Michigan. Anyways i gota take my kid to the doctor so gota go..

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

It is sheer arrogance, Haykakan. Arrogance and privilege. There are things we know that we know we know. There are things we know that we don't know we know. And there is the worst iteration -- things we don't know and don't know we don't know.
These guys think they know everything about what motivates people (and how the many things that motivate us interact, mediate, moderate, etc.), what they think, and even what their day to day lives and experiences are. The height of arrogance. People who already think they know everything there is to know, don't seek any evidence or confirmation. They choose to carry forth blind and inattentive to the fact that they could be wrong and that people's assumptions about the world around them turn out to be wrong all the time.

As here... It turns out that when we say "traditional" we should speak about a specific time period because apparently what we thought we knew about the "traditional" roles of women may not be correct.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/old-austrian-remains-of-woman-metal-worker/story-e6frf7k6-1226487780965

[Mos]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Uday and Qusay here will never learn so it might be better to save your energy on something more productive Siggie. Their inability to learn and reason is pretty profound if you think about it. Mos still likes capitalism despite all the xxxx it causes including the very problem he is complaining about and he only sees things in black or white like your either a capitalist or a communist and nothing in between can , has nor will ever exist. Kanadahye is just as dense but he has a sense of humor which makes him bearable at times. It is not easy for a man to understand what women go through because we men have our own issues to deal with. Most healthy young men have a extremely strong sex drive which is hard to control-much harder then for women and seeing a sexy attractive woman drives things into overdrive. This is not an excuse but it is a fact and as in the article you posted even when a pretty woman dresses modestly and acts uninterested men will still hit on her because the urge is so strong. Many men might not understand what a woman goes through but many women dont understand what a man has to go through either. Putting togather such strong sexual urges and the physical strength and size advantage that men have over women puts women in a difficult situation where they can be physically threatened and abused while men do not need to deal with a similar threat from women. Sure women can be manipulative etc.. but so can men but most women will always be at a physical disadvantage to men because of biology. Both sexes have their issues but one on one the female is at a distinct disadvantage as the article clearly illustrates. While both sexes can be victimized by the other it is the female who gets victimized by far more then the male even in societies with favorable divorce rates for females like here in Michigan. Anyways i gota take my kid to the doctor so gota go..

My reasoning here has been pretty clear I would say. My energy goes towards wanting a prosperous future for the Armenian nation and for our society to remain Armenian and Christian. I just don't want our society to turn into a culturally liberal, Western society. I know the implications for it, I don't want it. Is that so much to ask? When it comes to capitalism, I agree there are issues with capitalism (no economic system is perfect) but I prefer a more economically liberal approach than a more statist/socialist approach. What the Republican Party of Armenia employs, for example, is neo-liberal economic policies.

It is sheer arrogance, Haykakan. Arrogance and privilege. There are things we know that we know we know. There are things we know that we don't know we know. And there is the worst iteration -- things we don't know and don't know we don't know.
These guys think they know everything about what motivates people (and how the many things that motivate us interact, mediate, moderate, etc.), what they think, and even what their day to day lives and experiences are. The height of arrogance. People who already think they know everything there is to know, don't seek any evidence or confirmation. They choose to carry forth blind and inattentive to the fact that they could be wrong and that people's assumptions about the world around them turn out to be wrong all the time.

As here... It turns out that when we say "traditional" we should speak about a specific time period because apparently what we thought we knew about the "traditional" roles of women may not be correct.

I never said I knew everything about anything. As I said before, I'm merely just advocating for the values of our society to be protected. These values, many people cherish and hold close to their heart as the core values of Armenian society and family, including me. In the West, these values have been replaced with a globalised, overly liberal, politically correct system of values. I simply don't want such values to take over Armenian values. I think the message here is rather simple and shouldn't be this controversial. I don't understand how someone could want such values to overtake our conservative values that we have.

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

I never said I knew everything about anything. As I said before, I'm merely just advocating for the values of our society to be protected. These values, many people cherish and hold close to their heart as the core values of Armenian society and family, including me. In the West, these values have been replaced with a globalised, overly liberal, politically correct system of values. I simply don't want such values to take over Armenian values. I think the message here is rather simple and shouldn't be this controversial. I don't understand how someone could want such values to overtake our conservative values that we have.

Isn't the very fact that you're here complaining that these values have deteriorated evidence that they're not as dear to others as they might be to you or to as many people as you think? Those who hold those values as dear as you do are free to do that and to give them weight in their decisions, just as those who don't hold them as dear can not consider them. It is not about what you want; you don't make decisions for others.

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

*snickers *