How does everyone feel about Israel?

[Joseph]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

I agree. I'm not saying we should get cozy, only that we should be magnanimous to all sides and stay out of the conflict. Both sides will screw us and we must not be pawns. Armenians have enough on their plate with Turkey and Azerbaijan. Things are starting to play out in our favor.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Here, Here. Armenia/Armenians should have magnanimous attitude towards Israelis, Arabs, and Persians. We should engage in commerce, diplomacy, etc but should stay out of their conflicts. It is a lose-lose for us and some how we will only end up scapegoated.

I'm not saying we shouldn't engage in commerce or diplomacy, but declaring that they are our brothers or eternal friends is truly ridiculous, especially given our history. We should keep our distance in our relations with them, and not get to cozy.

[Joseph]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Of course not and neither have I ever said that I support Duke.

Duke is no longer a member of the KKK, your points are invalid.

Because he is now dedicated to an extremely racist organization in Russia that targets Armenians as well.

[Joseph]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The Muslim factions were supported militarily by Iranian and Syrian elements. Analogous to how the Christians were supported by Israel and some Western powers. Using the argument of atrocities committed by Christian factions to somehow implicate Israel as terrorists and at the same time totally ignoring the militant Palestinian groups that target civilians is very far-fetched.




No, they are not hiding only because they want to be near their families. It's a specific attempt to hid in the most populated of places in order to maximize civilian death when Israeli army tries to root them out. And Israel has a right to root these groups out as they conduct terrorist attacks in Israel, and like any country caring about its security it's going to take strict measures. The bottom line is those Palestinian terrorist groups instead of fighting the Israeli army, go out and specifically target civilians which is really disgusting. In Israel's case, it's civilians getting caught in the cross-fire, they aren't going specifically targeting civilians like the Palestinians.




But he's critical of Israel to serve his anti-Semitic purposes, nothing else. This whole "Zionist" hysteria he puts out in order to bolster his own bigoted view of everybody who is not white and protestant and living in the deep south. When a user brings up a video by Dukes as a legitimate source, than I deeply question where that user gets his information from and his intelligence in seeking out Dukes' video.

Again, if I quote Hitler and say he's right (Dukes shares very similar views to him) people would call be a neo-Nazi, so let's not apply double standards here...



Oh so Muslims have always treated us well? That's what you're trying to say? This Muslim-Armenian alliance is truly ridiculous, we've been oppressed and targeted often by Muslim powers because of our religion. After all in the Q'uran it says that the infidel (that's us) deserves to be killed. Point out to Byzantines all you want but fact remains fact that over our history the largest source of our oppression has been by Muslim powers. During Cilicia we were allied with the Christian Crusades, and it was a true golden age and cultural renaissance for us during those times of independence.




oh come'on, have you not heard about all the resolutions they adopted condeming armenia. The biggest supporters of Azerbaijan were Muslim fundamentalists and Pakistan. Can you not accept that yes Muslim terrorist groups were supporting Azerbaijan and killed Armenian soldiers??



Oh right, like how you say Israel is at fault for everything in the palestinian-israeli conflict....



No religion played a key emotional role for the Turks and Kurds in killing us, the Greeks, and the Assyrians, do not ignore that. Many of these soldiers were simple farmer folks who used Islam to justify the killings and exterminate us from our ancestral homeland. Why else did they target all Christian minorities? The notion of the Armenia-Islam alliance is just truly ridiculous, and believing in such false promises is what has led turbulent times in our history like the genocide. We have to look at reality and not be pro-Muslim like some people here, but pro-Armenian, and be suspicious of everybody else except strong friends.

Here, Here. Armenia/Armenians should have magnanimous attitude towards Israelis, Arabs, and Persians. We should engage in commerce, diplomacy, etc but should stay out of their conflicts. It is a lose-lose for us and some how we will only end up scapegoated.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

This is what you said "Bad things were done by both the Christian and the Muslim factions, it was a deadly civil war." so both of us are discussing factions as well but regardless, the Palestinians (the militant groups as the armed wing) were one of the factions in the Lebanese Civil War and the ones who suffered the most during it. The specific event we are talking about was Sabra and Shatila where Israel had a direct role and besides the Damour massacre of Christians, all the massacring was one-sided (Christians on Muslims). I don't know why you bring up Iran (possibly just cause you're throwing all Muslims in one bag or possibly because they support Hezbollah in 2010) but the Iranians had no part in the civil war. The Syrians were never involved in a massacre either themselves shooting or a la Israel where they let armed men into refugee camps to shoot the place up. The Syrian role at first ironically was against the Palestinian militants. Afterwards, they fought the Lebanese Forces Christian militia and the bastards decided to stay and occupy Lebanon for another 15 years. Screw Syria too, for that reason.

The Muslim factions were supported militarily by Iranian and Syrian elements. Analogous to how the Christians were supported by Israel and some Western powers. Using the argument of atrocities committed by Christian factions to somehow implicate Israel as terrorists and at the same time totally ignoring the militant Palestinian groups that target civilians is very far-fetched.

You have to familiarise yourself with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare It's not completely true that they "hide" in densely populated areas on purpose, rather they have families and Israel often chooses to target them when they are most vulnerable such as inside their own homes, during political gatherings (they are politicians too often) or when they leave a mosque because often they have problems finding them because these same militants are hiding in safe areas when they are conducting operations. And in those settings, civilians will be present and they will die when you launch a missile at them. And of course, when this happens it's a no-brainer the victim's side will use it for propaganda. It's a war and civilian deaths are always used to bolster support. Don't forget also that Gaza happens to be one of the most densely populated regions in the world so honestly, Israel is fighting a losing war when it comes to civilians. Both sides engage in propaganda and sadly, it sounds like you catch Palestinian propaganda quickly but fail to detect the propaganda when it comes from Israel. Finally, we can't forget that Palestinian factions are all nationalists and it would make little sense for them to sacrifice civilians like that but this is just a minor point.

No, they are not hiding only because they want to be near their families. It's a specific attempt to hid in the most populated of places in order to maximize civilian death when Israeli army tries to root them out. And Israel has a right to root these groups out as they conduct terrorist attacks in Israel, and like any country caring about its security it's going to take strict measures. The bottom line is those Palestinian terrorist groups instead of fighting the Israeli army, go out and specifically target civilians which is really disgusting. In Israel's case, it's civilians getting caught in the cross-fire, they aren't going specifically targeting civilians like the Palestinians.

You missed the point man. Mein Kampf is not comparable to David Duke. Mein Kampf, a book, had an entire intent to spread an ideology. David Duke has opinions on certain matters external of his other views, meaning they are exclusive from his opinions on Aryans or whatever he believes in. He might be a neo-Nazi for example and believe in I dunno what but if he is critical of the Israeli government and cites alleged crimes, then there's nothing wrong with posting and discussing this. But this is beyond the point, the problem here is you labelling another user by a term which is not justified and can be considered as an insult. No user has admitted to being a neo-Nazi or whatever label you used on them so cease calling them such. And I couldn't give a sh!t about David Duke.

But he's critical of Israel to serve his anti-Semitic purposes, nothing else. This whole "Zionist" hysteria he puts out in order to bolster his own bigoted view of everybody who is not white and protestant and living in the deep south. When a user brings up a video by Dukes as a legitimate source, than I deeply question where that user gets his information from and his intelligence in seeking out Dukes' video.

Again, if I quote Hitler and say he's right (Dukes shares very similar views to him) people would call be a neo-Nazi, so let's not apply double standards here...

Well, during the Lebanese Civil War, when Armenians chose to be neutral, the Christians bombed the Armenian quarters and we suffered plenty. I know people who were kidnapped or are maimed today due to them. In Armenia's case, the Byzantine empire was pretty brutal against us and is half the reason why Armenia was divided into two, something that affects us to this day. But the reason perhaps why Christians haven't done much to us since the fall of the Byzantines is because Christian countries fell to Muslim countries and they haven't been in power for awhile Religion does not mean much in politics. Russia helped us simply because the Ottoman Empire was threat, not because of our religion even if that might've been an extra motivation. By the way, xxxs are equally bad as Muslims when it comes to non-xxxs or "infidels". Our priests get spat on in Jerusalem by xxxs on a daily basis

Oh so Muslims have always treated us well? That's what you're trying to say? This Muslim-Armenian alliance is truly ridiculous, we've been oppressed and targeted often by Muslim powers because of our religion. After all in the Q'uran it says that the infidel (that's us) deserves to be killed. Point out to Byzantines all you want but fact remains fact that over our history the largest source of our oppression has been by Muslim powers. During Cilicia we were allied with the Christian Crusades, and it was a true golden age and cultural renaissance for us during those times of independence.

Not all of the Islamic Organisation. And their motivation is based on politics.

oh come'on, have you not heard about all the resolutions they adopted condeming armenia. The biggest supporters of Azerbaijan were Muslim fundamentalists and Pakistan. Can you not accept that yes Muslim terrorist groups were supporting Azerbaijan and killed Armenian soldiers??

Lol no. I'm showing you that you unjustly blame everything on Muslims when everyone else has been equally bad if in a position of power.

Oh right, like how you say Israel is at fault for everything in the palestinian-israeli conflict....

Mos, where did you read the Hamidian Massacres were not important? We were talking about the AG a page back but you quoted stuff from the Hamidian massacres. They are different events, with different motivations. One was perhaps motivated by relgion (but mostly sparked by taxes) but the other (the actual genocide) was motivated by Turan wet dreams. Scholars confirm this. Whether they converted our churches into mosques is just the side effect after the genocide. And converting to Islam back then meant converting yourself into a Turk or Kurd. Religion was strictly identified with ethnicities. That's why we use the terms "Turkified" and "Kurdified" when speaking of our lost Armenians.

No religion played a key emotional role for the Turks and Kurds in killing us, the Greeks, and the Assyrians, do not ignore that. Many of these soldiers were simple farmer folks who used Islam to justify the killings and exterminate us from our ancestral homeland. Why else did they target all Christian minorities? The notion of the Armenia-Islam alliance is just truly ridiculous, and believing in such false promises is what has led turbulent times in our history like the genocide. We have to look at reality and not be pro-Muslim like some people here, but pro-Armenian, and be suspicious of everybody else except strong friends.

[Joseph]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

No problem discussing Israel but the topic always gets out of hand and the comments get flippant almost immediately.

Armenians get so caught up in diatribes against Israel/J e w s that they forget who the real perpetrators of the Armenian, Assyrian, Pontic, and Dersim genocide were. They also forget that some of biggest proponents of Armenian issues and scholars are as well. Yes, there were many J e ws in the CUP and many donmeh still involved with our enemies, but lets not forget there are donmeh Armenians doing the same against Armenia/Armenians even now as well as during the Genocide. Armenians have had good relations with Arabs and Persians and I hope this continues but let's face it, the die has been cast, the Muslim world is going to turn on us completely.

We are right to question Israel motives and policy, but lets not forget, Armenia is close to Ahmidednejad and his mullahs and I'm sure not appreciated by Israel. This is reality. They are as skeptical of us as we are of them although that is slowly changing as they are coming to see the true face of Turkey.

I feel for the Palestinians and I think they should have their own state (an equitable one, not the one stipulated by the Israeli authorities) but I also believe the Israelis have the right to defend themselves. Where have the Arabs states been with regards to helping the Palestinians?

I do not agree with most Israeli policy but Armenians fail to see that for better or worse, the Israelis have their own interests that often times fall on the opposite tract as Armenians. Most J e w s I know, are pro-Armenian and also think Israel is often wrong vis vis the Palestinians but calling for the obliteration of Israel or denigrating as J e w s will only make them defensive. They are gradually seeing who their real enemies are in Turkey we must nurture the split. Already, Israel is getting closer to Russia, Greece and Bulgaria; this is a good thing for Armenians in the long run.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The worst thing about the Armenians who want to "discuss Israel" as some sort of "Armenian topic" is that they are almost all just your average holocaust denier idiots who have absolutely no interest in real Armenian topics.

There is a reason the word jew is auto-corrected to xxx here. All discussions with that word or revolving Israel almost immediately follow Godwin's law and once a discussion has a mention of Hitler, you might as well just delete the thread already.

Israel is probably the one Armenian topic that should be discussed more frequently but isn't due to the instant labeling of antisemitism. Not only are those lands part of Armenian history but Israel plays a major role with local politics as well as directly affecting Armenia's neighbours. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room.

right Islam had nothing to do with the Genocide....

Yeah... the wealthy sultans wanted Armenians to have 4 wives and 300 concubines and since our ancestors refused, it warranted a need for extermination.

[Azar]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

So Azar you support Hitler as well? You support Ku Klux Klan? Ahmadinejad would be proud of your neo-Nazi and anti-Semitic support...

Of course not and neither have I ever said that I support Duke.

Duke is no longer a member of the KKK, your points are invalid.

[Federate]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

First of all the discussion was regarding Palestinian militant groups, not factions in the Lebanese Civil War. Second of all, bad things were done by both sides with muslims being supported by Syrian and Iran. So if you are going to call Israel what you call, than you must also call Syria and Iran the same thing. Lastly, atrocities by warring factions should not be compared to terrorist attacks by palestinians groups.

This is what you said "Bad things were done by both the Christian and the Muslim factions, it was a deadly civil war." so both of us are discussing factions as well but regardless, the Palestinians (the militant groups as the armed wing) were one of the factions in the Lebanese Civil War and the ones who suffered the most during it. The specific event we are talking about was Sabra and Shatila where Israel had a direct role and besides the Damour massacre of Christians, all the massacring was one-sided (Christians on Muslims). I don't know why you bring up Iran (possibly just cause you're throwing all Muslims in one bag or possibly because they support Hezbollah in 2010) but the Iranians had no part in the civil war. The Syrians were never involved in a massacre either themselves shooting or a la Israel where they let armed men into refugee camps to shoot the place up. The Syrian role at first ironically was against the Palestinian militants. Afterwards, they fought the Lebanese Forces Christian militia and the bastards decided to stay and occupy Lebanon for another 15 years. Screw Syria too, for that reason.

No, palestinian terrorist groups have specifically made sure they hid in places with a dense amount of population, this tactic was also evident during Gaza war. They could hid in more discrete and less populated places, but they don't. they do for a specific purpose and it's to full-fill their sick and selfish purposes of propaganda and the expense of innocent lives.

People throwing rocks are not belligerents, I'm talking about the organized groups that go out and blow themselves up to take out innocent Israeli lives. There's a big difference.

You have to familiarise yourself with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare It's not completely true that they "hide" in densely populated areas on purpose, rather they have families and Israel often chooses to target them when they are most vulnerable such as inside their own homes, during political gatherings (they are politicians too often) or when they leave a mosque because often they have problems finding them because these same militants are hiding in safe areas when they are conducting operations. And in those settings, civilians will be present and they will die when you launch a missile at them. And of course, when this happens it's a no-brainer the victim's side will use it for propaganda. It's a war and civilian deaths are always used to bolster support. Don't forget also that Gaza happens to be one of the most densely populated regions in the world so honestly, Israel is fighting a losing war when it comes to civilians. Both sides engage in propaganda and sadly, it sounds like you catch Palestinian propaganda quickly but fail to detect the propaganda when it comes from Israel. Finally, we can't forget that Palestinian factions are all nationalists and it would make little sense for them to sacrifice civilians like that but this is just a minor point.

So, it's fine to quote Mein Kampf and ignore who wrote it? Fact remains fact you can't ignore the person whose behind this and his intentions for making this video, intention out of idiotic anti-Semitism, and the fact that the person listens to this guy is beyond my comprehension. I mean really David Dukes?

Yes I can go around throwing labels around because this person is a proven neo-Nazi and head of the KKK. You can't go wrong with him. And again his stance on Israel is just fuelled by his burning anti-Semitism, inspired by Hitler and other mental diseases that occupy his mind.

You missed the point man. Mein Kampf is not comparable to David Duke. Mein Kampf, a book, had an entire intent to spread an ideology. David Duke has opinions on certain matters external of his other views, meaning they are exclusive from his opinions on Aryans or whatever he believes in. He might be a neo-Nazi for example and believe in I dunno what but if he is critical of the Israeli government and cites alleged crimes, then there's nothing wrong with posting and discussing this. But this is beyond the point, the problem here is you labelling another user by a term which is not justified and can be considered as an insult. No user has admitted to being a neo-Nazi or whatever label you used on them so cease calling them such. And I couldn't give a sh!t about David Duke.

So tell me the last time Christians came and massacred us or oppressed us? Russians helped us, Greeks have been reliable friends, we've always been good with the French. The fact remains fact what Muslims have done to us throughout our history. Sure we still have minorities in Muslim countries that are treated relatively well, but their views on non-muslims or "infidels" is well known.

Well, during the Lebanese Civil War, when Armenians chose to be neutral, the Christians bombed the Armenian quarters and we suffered plenty. I know people who were kidnapped or are maimed today due to them. In Armenia's case, the Byzantine empire was pretty brutal against us and is half the reason why Armenia was divided into two, something that affects us to this day. But the reason perhaps why Christians haven't done much to us since the fall of the Byzantines is because Christian countries fell to Muslim countries and they haven't been in power for awhile Religion does not mean much in politics. Russia helped us simply because the Ottoman Empire was threat, not because of our religion even if that might've been an extra motivation. By the way, xxxs are equally bad as Muslims when it comes to non-xxxs or "infidels". Our priests get spat on in Jerusalem by xxxs on a daily basis

I very well will not forget the Muslim brotherhood with Azerbaijan and the support by Islamic Organization.

Not all of the Islamic Organisation. And their motivation is based on politics.

What are you trying to prove anyways? We should turn our back on Christianity and turn to Islam? Look at what Islam has done to Middle east, look at Iran how Islam has turned that country into a hell-hole. It's a backwards religion that we should never associate with and should always be careful in our relations with Muslims.

Lol no. I'm showing you that you unjustly blame everything on Muslims when everyone else has been equally bad if in a position of power.

Oh so Hamidian massacres were not important? You know how many thousands of Armenian died during those massacres? just because they show that Muslims were targeting us for religion you ignore it? Yes Islam was used as a tool to Massacre us and other Christian minorities. If we were Muslim they wouldn't have massacre us and that's why some Armenians during AG converted. They destroyed our churches or converted them to their mosques. The whole Turkish/Ottoman identity is based on lies and stealing other people's cultures and lands. That's it.

I'm proud to be Christian and to have known that Armenians despite all the Muslim powers that tried to convert us, we stand strong with our ancient Christian identity intact. That comes to show the resilience of our people and the strength of our church. Long live Armenia and f*ck anybody who thinks otherwise.

Mos, where did you read the Hamidian Massacres were not important? We were talking about the AG a page back but you quoted stuff from the Hamidian massacres. They are different events, with different motivations. One was perhaps motivated by relgion (but mostly sparked by taxes) but the other (the actual genocide) was motivated by Turan wet dreams. Scholars confirm this. Whether they converted our churches into mosques is just the side effect after the genocide. And converting to Islam back then meant converting yourself into a Turk or Kurd. Religion was strictly identified with ethnicities. That's why we use the terms "Turkified" and "Kurdified" when speaking of our lost Armenians.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

And in the context of this same civil war, Israelis knowing the Phalangists are massacring Palestinians, they armed the Christians and then let them into a refugee camp to they can carry out their massacre. It's like if the prison guards let in hitmen to go out and kill prisoners that they dislike. Not cool. Labeling one side terrorist and not the other is your own bias. Fact is and will remain that the Christians were by far the bloodiest of the warring factions and they were allied with none other than Israel.

First of all the discussion was regarding Palestinian militant groups, not factions in the Lebanese Civil War. Second of all, bad things were done by both sides with muslims being supported by Syrian and Iran. So if you are going to call Israel what you call, than you must also call Syria and Iran the same thing. Lastly, atrocities by warring factions should not be compared to terrorist attacks by palestinians groups.

Yes, when two opposing forces are not equal in strength, it leads to a guerrilla war where fighting takes place sporadically in urban areas. The entire Gaza Strip and West Bank IS the battlefield. And the local population IS the belligerent. Airstrikes and such are the things that cause the most damage to civilian populations. When you throw a megaton bomb on a leader of Hamas who is leaving a crowded mosque after prayers, what do you think will happen? Israel does not calculate this? And Israel shoots itself in the foot by feeding into the Palestinian propaganda by its continuous and widely documented use of human shields. That is the most damaging I find. The funding for weapons and such is irelevant. It comes from rich ex-pats, charity and Arab nations and Iran. Israel's funding comes from Western nations. Who cares?

No, palestinian terrorist groups have specifically made sure they hid in places with a dense amount of population, this tactic was also evident during Gaza war. They could hid in more discrete and less populated places, but they don't. they do for a specific purpose and it's to full-fill their sick and selfish purposes of propaganda and the expense of innocent lives.

People throwing rocks are not belligerents, I'm talking about the organized groups that go out and blow themselves up to take out innocent Israeli lives. There's a big difference.

You don't like him and many other people do not like him either. That does not mean that everything that comes out of his mouth is related to Nazism or the such. In the video, he is putting forth claims of Israeli and/or Zionist crimes. You can't just go around and throw labels at people calling them neo-Nazis and the such just because they posted a video from a person that has links to those organisations. Who knows? Maybe the poster does not support neo-Nazism but support his stance on the Israeli government.

So, it's fine to quote Mein Kampf and ignore who wrote it? Fact remains fact you can't ignore the person whose behind this and his intentions for making this video, intention out of idiotic anti-Semitism, and the fact that the person listens to this guy is beyond my comprehension. I mean really David Dukes?

Yes I can go around throwing labels around because this person is a proven neo-Nazi and head of the KKK. You can't go wrong with him. And again his stance on Israel is just fuelled by his burning anti-Semitism, inspired by Hitler and other mental diseases that occupy his mind.

You missed the point. Every empire with a specific religion has tried to subjugate us and not just the Muslims and that's regardless of what we have believed in. Even the French tried to catholicise us in Cilicia and partly succeeded. The Muslims were just the LAST empire trying to force their will upon us. BTW, the Ottoman Millet system was revolutionary in the sense that for the first time in any empire, we were protected legally as a religious minority and had certain religious laws to which we could govern ourselves.

So tell me the last time Christians came and massacred us or oppressed us? Russians helped us, Greeks have been reliable friends, we've always been good with the French. The fact remains fact what Muslims have done to us throughout our history. Sure we still have minorities in Muslim countries that are treated relatively well, but their views on non-muslims or "infidels" is well known.

I very well will not forget the Muslim brotherhood with Azerbaijan and the support by Islamic Organization.

What are you trying to prove anyways? We should turn our back on Christianity and turn to Islam? Look at what Islam has done to Middle east, look at Iran how Islam has turned that country into a hell-hole. It's a backwards religion that we should never associate with and should always be careful in our relations with Muslims.

The quotes from Wikipedia all point to the Hamidian massacres and not the Armenian Genocide. They are two different events. The Sultan's and Young Turks' motivations to slaughter us were very different from one another. In fact, the Sultan, who it can be argued had a religious motivation behind his massacres, was much more lenient (ironically) to the Young Turks as history showed. By the way, Arabs were massacred during the period of the AG as well and they were Muslims. Again, religion was just a tool used to the Young Turks' advantage.

Oh so Hamidian massacres were not important? You know how many thousands of Armenian died during those massacres? just because they show that Muslims were targeting us for religion you ignore it? Yes Islam was used as a tool to Massacre us and other Christian minorities. If we were Muslim they wouldn't have massacre us and that's why some Armenians during AG converted. They destroyed our churches or converted them to their mosques. The whole Turkish/Ottoman identity is based on lies and stealing other people's cultures and lands. That's it.

I'm proud to be Christian and to have known that Armenians despite all the Muslim powers that tried to convert us, we stand strong with our ancient Christian identity intact. That comes to show the resilience of our people and the strength of our church. Long live Armenia and f*ck anybody who thinks otherwise.