How does everyone feel about Israel?

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

INTERESTING ARTICLE & VIDEO:


VIDEO (Attaturk's Statue in Israel): http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=uk&v=5JdnqGEu1kw

The Turkish - Israeli Connection and Its xxxish Roots
By Joseph Hantman

One of the most significant developments in recent Middle East affairs is the close relationship which now exists between Turkey and Israel in military, political, economic and intelligence matters. This change in the power structure is usually attributable to the old Arab maxim “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Since both Turkey and Israel count Syria and Iraq as their strongest threats, the close ties between Turkey and Israel are quite logical.


However, there is good evidence of a less widely known but absolutely fascinating story behind this relationship. Turkey, which has a population almost exclusively Muslim, has a government which by law is committed to being totally secular. This goes back to modern Turkey’s founding father, Mustafa Kemal (Kemal Ataturk), 1881-1938, leader of the Young Turk Movement which took over after World War I and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.


Ataturk and his followers moved rapidly to end religious domination and many religious practices in the daily life of the country. They decreed a change from the Arabic alphabet to the Roman, and they outlawed the fez and the veil. They opened schools to both boys and girls, and their main goal was to Westernize Turkey and secularize its practices. The Turkish army has been the main enforcement agent of this secular policy in times of rising fundamentalism among some groups.


Some Background Data

In the 18th and early 19th century Salonika (now Thesalonika), under Turkish rule in Greece, was the unofficial capital of Sephardic xxxry. Of the three groups in the city, the xxxs were larger than the combined Greek Orthodox and Muslim population.

The xxxs dominated the commerce of the city and controlled the docks of this major seaport. There were great synagogues and academies of rabbinic study. Moslem shops closed on Friday, Greek Orthodox on Sunday, and most shops and businesses were closed on Shabbat. Ladino, the beautiful mix of Spanish and Hebrew, was the lingua franca of the city and “Shabbat Shalom” was the universal Saturday greeting among all. In the late 19th and early 20th century the city declined as a result of conflict between Greek Orthodox and Moslems, and xxxish dominance of the city decreased.


Fall of the Ottoman Empire

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Ottoman.jpg

With the fall of the Ottoman Empire after World War I and the decision at the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 to create an independent Greek state, the decision was made to transfer populations. All Moslems in Greece had to move to Turkey and all Orthodox Greeks in Turkey had to move to Greece. In all, about 350,000 Moslems and one million Greeks were involved in the move. xxxs were permitted to remain wherever they lived.


At this time a group of Moslems went to the authorities supervising the population shift and explained that they were not really Moslems but were in fact really xxxs posing as Moslems. The authorities would not entertain such a claim so the group then went to the Chief Rabbi, Saul Amarillo, to verify their xxxish status. Rabbi Amarillo states, “Yes, I know who you are. You are momzarim (very loosely translated as bastards) and as such not acceptable in the xxxish community.” These people were the Doenmeh, the Turkish word for converts, and their existence had been known for over 200 years. They were called momzarim because of the bizarre sexual practices that were part of their religious rituals, which made it impossible to trace parentage and lineage. The Doenmeh were forced to leave Salonika for Turkey, which, considering the tragic fate of Salonika’s xxxs during the Holocaust 20 years later, undoubtedly saved their lives.


Who Were the Doenmeh? (Dönme)

One of the best known names but least known historical figures in xxxish history is Shabbtai Zvi, the “false messiah” (1626-1687). Born in Smyrna, Turkey, of a Sephardic father and an Ashkenazi mother, he was a brilliant child and Talmudic student, and an ordained rabbi in his mid teens. He went on to study and became a master in Kabbalah and other xxxish mysticism. His oratory was captivating and he soon acquired a following. However, he exhibited odd characteristics, including periods of illumination where he was believed to be communicating with God and periods of darkness when he was wrestling with evil. Soon he began to hint that he was the Messiah. This blasphemy caused him to be expelled from a number of congregations. He took up a pilgrim’s staff and with some followers roamed the Middle East, gathering many to his messianic preaching, especially during his periods of light. In Gaza he was welcomed by Rabbi Nathan, who had for years been preaching that the arrival of the Messiah was imminent. This combination led to a great outpouring of belief in Shabbtai Zvi as the Messiah. Word spread throughout the xxxish world, from Poland, Amsterdam, Germany, London, Persia, and Turkey to Yemen. Multitudes joined his ranks – educated rabbis, illiterates, rich and poor alike were swept up in the mass hysteria.


Among his inner core, they accepted his theory that all religious restrictions were reversed. The forbidden was encouraged and the commandments of the Torah were replaced by Shabbtai’s 18 (chai) commandments. This led to feasting on fast days, sexual relations with others than one’s spouse, and many more. The high point was in 1665-66, when Shabbtai, with his followers, marched on the Sultan’s palace expecting to be greeted as the Messiah. This of course did not happen. To shorten this story, Shabbtai was given the choice “convert to Islam or die.” To the consternation of his followers, he chose conversion. Most of his followers return to their homelands where, after penitence and sometimes flagellation, they were received into the congregations. However, some hundreds of families of his inner circle considered his apostasy as part of his overall plan of reaching the depth before attaining redemption. They too converted to Islam, although for about 200 years they lived as Moslems but secretly passed on their secret quasi-xxxish Shabbatean beliefs and practices to their children. They continued learning and praying in Hebrew and Ladino. As the generations passed, the knowledge of Hebrew was reduced to reciting certain prayers and expressions by memory in a barely understood Hebrew. They were known in Turkish as Doenmeh, meaning “converts”; to the xxxs they were Minim, meaning “heretics.” They referred to themselves as Ma’aminim, the “believers.” They were never really accepted by the Turks nor by the xxxs.


As we get into the middle and late 1800’s and education and enlightened thinking spread through parts of the region, young Doenmeh men who were dissatisfied with their status as “neither-nor” turned to secular nationalism to establish their identity. They neglected all forms of religious belonging and saw in the “Young Turk movement” their emancipation.


The xxxish Roots


In 1911 in the Hotel Kamenetz in Jerusalem, Itamar Ben Avi, a newspaperman and writer who was the son of Eleazer Ben Yehudah (credited as the main proponent of the establishment of Modern Hebrew) met with a young Turkish Army officer. After enjoying a good quantity of Arak, the officer, Col. Mustafa Kemal, turned to his drinking partner and recited the “Shema” in fluent Hebrew and indicated that he came from a Doenmeh family. They met again on a few occasions and Kemal filled in more of his background. This man was of course to become General Kemal Ataturk, founder of modern Turkey.


Remnants of Doenmeh still exist. There is an unidentifiable building known as the xxxish Mosque where Doenmeh still meet. During World War II, when Turkey was close to Germany, there were separate tax lists for different religious categories, and the “D” list was for Doenmeh. During his lifetime and continuing today, there have been whispered rumors among Islamic activists that Kemal Ataturk and other Young Turks were of xxxish origin. Publicly, he denied this and his biographers avoided the issue.


However, there is little doubt that 300 years after the death of Shabbtai Zvi, his influence and twists and turns of his Doenmeh followers provided the activist secular basis which is one of the underlying principles of modern Turkey – without which the Turkish-Israeli connection would have been most unlikely.


To bring this story up to date and possibly complete the circle, we now learn that some Doenmeh living in Turkey have made inquiry of American xxxish religious organizations about the possible re-entry of Doenmeh into today’s xxxish world.

[Eddo211]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Don't we have people in our society that deny the holocaust and think that Hitler was right when he tried to eradicate the xxxs. They also see in everything that goes on in the world a big xxxish conspiracy against the world. So every society has it's retards, and I can add that most normal Israelis don't like the Orthodox xxxs either.

As I know anti-Semitism exists in Armenia but it does not happen that often. For example Armenian Media and local officials boycotted a Holocaust Memorial and there was an anti-Semitic book that was published back in 2002. Most of these feelings are stemmed from Israeli close relations with Turkey and now, their new poster child, Aliyev.

With that said the xxxs in Armenia have good relations with Armenians and they may worship and practice xxxish traditions freely. You also have xxxish relief organizations such as JDC, JCA, and JAFI active in Armenia. Also intermarriage is common between the two. Not too many are aware that Armenian xxxs perished in the Holocaust.

Here is a brief oversight of xxxish history in Armenia:

The xxxish community of Armenia dates back almost 2,000 years. Many historians date the arrival of the first xxxish settlement in Armenia back to the destruction of the First Temple. During the conquest of King Tigranes II the Great, Tigranes brought with him 10,000 xxxish captives to Armenia when he retreated from Palestine, because of the Roman attack on Armenia (69 B.C.E.). By 360-370 C.E., there was a massive increase in xxxish Hellenistic immigration into Armenia; many Armenian towns became predominately xxxish. During this period, however, the Persian Shapur II began deporting thousands of xxxs to Iran.

Halakhic studies never prospered in Armenia, although there are a few references to the region in xxxish Hellenistic sources. During Medieval times, most of Armenian xxxry vanished as a distinct entity in the region, although many historians believe they became a part of the Kurdish xxxry. There is an ancient xxxish cemetery located in the region of Vayots Dzor, in the city of Eghegis, south and west of Yerevan. There are more than 40 tombstones dating back to the 13th century, 16 tombstones with Hebrew and Aramaic inscriptions.

xxxs from Poland and Persia first began arriving in Armenia in the early 19th century. Since 1840, xxxish settlers established both Ashkenazic and Sephardic communities in Yerevan. Up to 1924, the Sephardic synagogue, Shiek Mordechai, was a leading institution among the xxxish community.

During and after World War II, hundreds of displaced xxxs moved to Soviet Armenia. The xxxish population of Armenia grew to approximately 5,000 people. In 1959, the xxxish population peaked in Soviet Armenia at approximately 10,000 people. Another wave of xxxish immigrants arrived in the country between 1965 and 1972, mainly intelligentsia, military, and engineers. These xxxs arrived from Russia and Ukraine, attracted to the more liberal society. Today, the xxxish community has fewer than 1,000 citizens due to emigration and assimilation. Between 1992 and 1994, more than 6,000 xxxs immigrated to Israel because of Armenia�s political isolation and economic depression. In 1995, the Chabad House was established in Yerevan. The Chabad House provides free meals, offers classes in Hebrew and xxxish traditions, and cares for the community elderly.

The rate of intermarriage among xxxs and Christian Armenians is very high. In an interview, Rabbi Berstein of the Yerevan Chabad described the xxxish community as ��too small� to be of great interest to most xxxish organizations.� Almost half of the xxxish population resides in Yerevan. Seven, Yerevan and Vanadzor have active xxxish community centers.

At the start of 2002, Rimma Varzhapetian became the president of the xxxish Community of Armenia. The only rabbi in Armenia is Rabbi Gershom Meir Berstein of the Chabad in Yerevan. In 2004, the xxxish community, through the assistance of Chabad, began producing kosher food. Slowly, the xxxish community is rebuilding itself in Armenia.

The reason the Religious xxxs in Israel are looked upon with contempt is because they bad mouth IDF, they do not serve in IDF, and Israelis see themselves putting their lives on the line for these unappreciated xxxs who are causing more trouble for them with settlements, however it ends there, they are part of them after all and will not abandon them.

These Orthodox xxxs who show discrimination against Christians (not specifically Armenians per say) do it right after they come out of their Synagogues taught by their leaders, these are not just punks on the street.

What I said (loosing Armenian Quarter) may not even happen.one thing about Religious xxxs is that they do respect and recognize history, especially religious history that Armenia is part of. Example would be the State of Israel would have no trouble removing the Armenian Quarter in East Jerusalem and install a Ataturk Statue in that city (which they tried), it was the religious xxxs who stopped it.

It would be more correct to state that how can Armenia recognize Palestine when it does not recognize Artsakh.

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Do you have proofs that everyday Israelis are actively supporting Azerbaijan? . Again, show me a country where all the government's policies reflect the opinion of the populace.

(Show me one Israeli protest or newspaper editorial criticizing the repeated sale of military hardware to Azerbaijan. That Israeli hardware is intended to put Armenian soldiers into coffins and to erase Armenia from history. Israeli arms dealing is a large part of the Israeli economy - they have newspapers in Israel - are we supposed to pretend that the Israeli public is not aware of arms sales to Azerbaijan or can't vote for other candidates? Almost every Israeli serves in the Israeli army - so it's not like Israelis are sheep herders who don't have access to information or the internet. Israel is a small country Mos - word travels fast. It would be like Iranians not being aware of Iran selling Persian carpets or the Japanese not being aware that they sell Toyotas.)

Remember that Israel has a sizeable Azerbaijani J3w population.

(Actually this is a meaningless statement given that Azerbaijan is a wholly contrived nation and therefore there is no such thing as an ethnic "Azerbaijani-J3w" - Do you mean a Khazar-J3ws? Turkish-J3ws (like Attaturk and possibly Aliyev)? Israel actually has a sizable Russian-J3wish popluation - Ashkenazis. They helped found the state of Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/xxxish-...rganized_crime) (There are also a very peaceful group of tribal J3ws living in the mountains in Azerbaijan who are basically country folk - and not to be confused with the militant Zionist-Turks.)

You really think Israel supports Azerbaijan because they like Azeris? - don't turn this into a Israeli-Azeri love affair.

(Does it really matter? Whether it's based on "love" or not - those Israeli bullets have killed and are intended to kill Armenian soldiers. Maybe it's not a "love affair" - maybe it's a "family affair" wherein the Azeri political elite and the Israelis are part of the same religious/ethnic group. Aliyev is certainly a Zionist. I'm Iranian - I know what a real Iranian-Azari looks like; and a real Iranian-Azari doesn't look like Alieyev. Where is Aliyev really from? When one says Iranian-Azari, it's clear what such a person looks like. When you say Azerbaijani - i.e., from "The Republic of Azerbaijan" it's not clear what ethnic group you're referring to. It could mean anything. )

Azerbaijan maintains close ties with Palestine to the point, Israelis have threatened to cut ties with Azeris over those ties.

(This is nothing but an Israeli smoke-screen so that Muslims don't turn against Aliyev - Aliyev doesn't give a hoot about Palestinians, and he is facing a threat of an Islamic Revolution. Pretty soon Aliyev will be wearing a turban, and reading passages on TV from the Quran if his political survival is further jeopardized.)

[KarotheGreat]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

If Armenia did that then you can kiss Armenian Quarter in Jerusalim goodbye where the religious xxxs spit on us while their moderates in US decieve us in their support against AIPAC, there is a trend in US.

Don't we have people in our society that deny the holocaust and think that Hitler was right when he tried to eradicate the xxxs. They also see in everything that goes on in the world a big xxxish conspiracy against the world. So every society has it's retards, and I can add that most normal Israelis don't like the Orthodox xxxs either.

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Perhaps they [Azerbaijan] had to show some sort of sign that they are an islamic country.

Exactly - even more so with the uprisings in Egypt etc. In Iran he's often characterized as a "Godless thug" - he worries that Iran will march across the border or turn religious people in Azerbaijan against him.

(Aliyev is the son of a KGB strong-man and a Pan-Turkist to the core (a secular Attaturk-style Mafia Don). The truth is that Aliyev is not a religious man (not that religious Muslims can't be corrupt also - but Aliyev doesn't fit the mold). Not that it makes a difference, but I seriously doubt if he ever was Muslim. I've had serious doubts as to whether he was even Heydar Aliyev's son; he doesn't look anything like his mother or father. I even went so far back as to look at childhood pictures of him.)

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

If Armenia did that then you can kiss Armenian Quarter in Jerusalim goodbye where the religious xxxs spit on us while their moderates in US decieve us in their support against AIPAC, there is a trend in US.

I agree that this is a risk; and that given Armenia's current struggles, it's not really necessary at this point.

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Religious J3ws spit on everybody who is not a religious J3w.

Then please clarify this for me: Why are your postings here so consistently geared towards portraying Israel in a favorable light and Iran in a less favorable light? It's not like Iranians are spitting on Armenians, like religious J3ws in Israel are - Iranians have very positive relations with Armenians.

(And the story gets stranger and stranger.)

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Why does Azerbaijan recognise Palestine though? They have all the grounds not to. Their defence of territorial integrity given Karabakh and close military ties with Israel should make it a no brainer, but in fact they have very warm relations with the Palestinians.

Perhaps they had to show some sort of sign that they are an islamic country. They do not recognize kosovo, but that is more obvious because the kosovar claim is not that strong and it is too similar to the Karabakh conflict. Palestine, on the other hand, was/is a well know geographic area and was populated by arabs since the 700s.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Why does Azerbaijan recognise Palestine though? They have all the grounds not to. Their defence of territorial integrity given Karabakh and close military ties with Israel should make it a no brainer, but in fact they have very warm relations with the Palestinians.

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Armenia will not recognize any controversial territory before recognizing de jure Artsakh. It is part of Armenia's grand strategy.