How does everyone feel about Israel?

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

I never said we all like Georgians - yes there is sort of a rivalry between us - but the biggest part of the dislike stems from our differing strategic relations (us being close with Russia).

We do share similar history, culture, religion, (only natural as we've been neighbours for ages) - but a confederation does not stem from cultural closeness it stems from purely strategic interests, and Armenia and Georgia don't share the same strategic direction. And both have different problems when it comes to territories (Georgia is territorial integrity, we are self determination).

The hostility in the schools is because Georgians don't want their country to be come too divided anymore. Our culture is not identical and obviously we have differing languages so that point of divide is enough for such hostility.

The biggest part of our dislike is due to georgian chauvinism and enviousness of Armenians. Did you read the asbarez article I posted? Armenians have held negative opinions of georgians even during soviet times when both of our nations had the same political alignment. Before shakasvilli came to power, when georgia was still in the Russian camp, Armenians still didn't like georgians much. The feel is mutial but where as ours is reactionary to them, they envy us and therefore when they get a chance to hurt us they take it. While Hayastanci's may not care too much for the Iranians either, they at least understand the positive role Armenian-Iranian cooperation has for Armenia. But all Armenians know that if it were not for the blockade of Armenia, that we'd drop georgia in a heartbeat as our 'link' to the outside world. As soon as the highway and rail line between Armenia and Iran is completed you will see a shift in official Yerevan's responses to georgian provocations in Javakh and against Armenian churches.

A confederation is based on many calculations, it is not all based on interests. Countries that share similarites in culture, ethnicity, history, religion, language, etc. and have some objective interests as well are more likely to pool together than those who are more foreign. The Benelux are an example of this.

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

@ Mos, your comments are entirely Pro-Israel and Pro-Azerbaijan propaganda - and totally against Armenia.

First, you suggest that it's okay for Israel to arm Azerbaijan because "Russia also gives weapons to Azeris" -- You try to convince people that two-wrongs make a right and try to confuse the discussion by including Russian policies (Russia's and Israel's interests and policies are not the same -- Russia borders Azerbaijan and Armenia - Israel doesn't.). Nevertheless, the reality for any Armenian military commander is that if Russia is also Arming Azerbaijan and Israel is arming Azerbaijan, it puts Armenia at double the risk -- it doesn't somehow make Israel's actions forgivable. The only rational Armenian policy -- if you care about the survival of Armenia -- is to work against any country arming Azerbaijan. Instead, you constantly make excuses for Israel.

Secondly you make excuses for the Israeli voting public and politicians who are arming Azerbaijan -- these Israelis do not object to Israel openly arming Azerbaijan against Armenia during a time of war. Your excuse is that: "Everyday Israelis are not voting based on this issue [of arming Azerbaijan against Armenia]." Every-day Israelis have a free press - they can see that their elected leaders are transferring military arms to Azerbaijan -- if they cared about Armenia or objected to arming Azerbaijan "Every day Israelis" would protest the actions of leaders they elected and protest against the Israeli government's and lobby's massive efforts to block discussions about the Armenian Genocide. But most Israeli's are happy with these policies and do not object.

"EVERY-DAY" ISRAELIS/ZIONISTS HAVE LONG SHOWN THEIR STANCE TOWARDS ARMENIANS - EVEN IF THEIR VIEWS CHANGE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW THIS HISTORY:

Source: Turkish Daily News, April 26, 2007

"Four large U.S. J*wish groups have lent support to Turkey’s position in opposing the passage of two resolutions pending in Congress that call for official recognition of World War I-era killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide. B’nai B’rith International, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the American J*wish Committee and the J*wish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) have recently conveyed a letter from Turkish J*ws who oppose the resolution to U.S. congressional leaders, officials from the groups told the Turkish Daily News.

In their letter, leading Turkish J*ws have urged congressional leaders to postpone considering the genocide measures. In conveying the letter to Congress officials, the four U.S. xxxish groups tacitly agreed to its contents. Going further, the ADL and JINSA have also added their own statements opposing the bill."

Thirdly, I wrote (and I'm quoting) that: "I didn't intend to 'prove' anything, but wanted to float the idea out there to see if anyone has information [about Aliyev's real ethnic background]." (Notice the quotation marks.) Where I stated that I didn't intend to prove anything -- but rather sought "to see if anyone has information" -- you then pretend that I sought to prove this by stating: "Where's your proof?" I think there is a reasonable suspicion about Aliyev's true ethnic background. Let's look at history: Attaturk is widely reported to have been a Turkish-J3w (by Israeli journalists nonetheless! and in interviews that he gave), so we know that there is at a minimum a historical risk of this. Furthermore, I am Iranian -- I know what a real Azari looks like and I know what a Turkish-J3w looks like. I have never seen a red-haired 6 foot 5 inch (195.58 cm) Azari that looks like a Turkish-J3w. Find me one picture of an Azari from Iran that looks like this! Your job should be easy: There are millions of Azaris in Iran. Find one picture. Moreover, Aliyev is incredibly pro-Israel (and anti-Muslim), in much the same way Attaturk was, which also raises suspicion.

A few quotes from respected publications about Attaturk show this risk - I am suggesting Aliyev may be the same and it merits investigation:

Source: The Literary Digest (a U.S. news journal published October 14, 1922, Page: 50).

"A Spanish xxx by ancestry, an orthodox Moslem by birth and breeding, trained in a German war college, a patriot, a student of the campaigns of the world's great generals, including Napoleon, Grant and Lee - these are said to be a few outstanding characteristics in the personality of the new "Man on Horseback" who has appeared in the Near East. He is a real dictator, the correspondents testify, a man of the type which is at once the hope and fear of nations torn to pieces by unsuccessful wars. Unity and power have come back to Turkey largely through the will of Mustafa Kemal Pasha."

* * *

WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL ("It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed) By Hillel Halkin

ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the first visit ever made to Turkey by a xxxish chief of state. One was whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony commemorating Kemal Ataturk.

Ms. Keinan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their arrival, and asked what my second question was.

"Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had xxxish ancestors and was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"

"Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's national hero.

* * *

After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful, however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-xxx who passed on his anti-Muslim sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it would prefer to continue to be kept.

* * *
IT HAS BEEN THE MODUS OPERANDI OF ISRAELI MILITARY TO POSE AS MUSLIMS: IGNORING THESE PRACTICES AND PRETENDING THEY DON'T EXIST JUST PUTS ARMENIA AT RISK. NO OFFENSE TO PEACE-LOVING J*WS, BUT THE ISRAELI MILITARY USES THIS TECHNIQUE:


"Another Aman-Mossad agent was the Egyptian-born j*w, Eli Cohen. Inveigled into Syria during the 1960s, he posed as an Arab military expert and gained access to top secret Syrian military plans. His data proved indispensable during the 1967 Six Day War. Yet he too was unmasked, and was subsequently publicly executed in Damascus."

Israeli source below:
http://www.bje.org.au/learning/people/famous/spies.html

Mos, I asked your for quote from what I said and you quoted something I never wrote -- you posted something someone else wrote. I am not a spokesperson for anyone else. The quote below is not from me. If you have any integrity, put the link and the post number so people can check it. For example this is post #195.

I DIDN'T WRITE THIS! WHETHER IT'S RIGHT OR WRONG IS NOT FOR ME TO DEFEND:

Armenians in Armenia do not like georgians that much Mos, either you are lying, or have somehow talked only with the very few who do. Most Hayastanci's (rightfully) dislike georgians and their government because of their chauvinism.

If georgians believed what you were saying above, that we share a similar culture, religion, history, etc. then we'd be in some sort of union with them or confederation. Or at the very least they would not be so hostile to Armenians wanting to learn in their own language in their schools.

Nor did I say that Iran's relationship with Armenia is "equivalent" to Russia's relationship with Armenia -- Iran doesn't sell Azerbaijan weapons, so that's one major difference there.

I will be honest Mos, not only are many of your posts ill-informed - they also seem to be deliberately inaccurate and nothing more than excuses for country's hostile to Armenia.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

[So that makes it okay for Israel to provide weapons to Azerbaijan at a time of war?]

No it doesn't, but I will say for the 1000th time, that Russia also gives weapons to Azeris, and Azeris have more Russian weapons than Israeli. This fact doesn't change our relations with Russia.

[Israeli politicians are elected not only by "azeri-j3ws," but by every Israeli of voting age. If you and i know that israel sells weapons to Azerbaijan, you can safely conclude the Israeli public does also.]

There are more dire issues on the voting agenda for Israel, than weapon transfer to Azerbaijan. Everyday Israelis is not voting based on this issue - they don't care about this, it's not very important, and no not many people are even aware of this. Show me one election campaign that highlights "that if you elected me, I will support Azerbaijan." Did voters in Albania vote so that Albania would send weapons to Armenia?

[Using your logic, it would also be really flawed to conclude Aliyev was Azeri "based off of looks." I didn't intend to 'prove' anything, but wanted to float the idea out there to see if anyone has information. I will tell you this: Ilham Aliyev is not an ethnic Azari.]

What is your proof, besides speculation on his looks?

[You're right - we should just pretend Israeli weapons fired at Armenians are in Armenia's interests. I'm sure that's what the Armenian Military does, right? Imagine the head of the Armenian military saying: "Please don't talk about who is giving those rockets, drones, and machine guns to our arch enemy to kill our people during war time - it might hurt the Israelis' feelings.".]

I never said that was a good thing. But again, weapon transfer is a business. So should Armenia cut its ties with Russia because it sells weapons Azerbaijan? Actually Russia sold S-300 missiles to Azerbaijan more lethal than anything you listed there. Of course we wouldn't want that, but in the end of the day all this is like business. Actually military realtions stems from have tangible strategic relations (e.g. us being part of CSTO).

[Can you find any place where i said they are "equivalent"? Can you find any place where i said this is important for me or Iran to be "equivalent" with Russia? Post a link with my quotes.]

Write a letter to Iran, and ask the government to stop doing Armenia "favors" (since according to you they don't exist any way) and see how you are received by Armenians. Much what you said could easily be said about Iran also ('they stand by our security,' 'historic military alliance,' etc.).

Armenians in Armenia do not like georgians that much Mos, either you are lying, or have somehow talked only with the very few who do. Most Hayastanci's (rightfully) dislike georgians and their government because of their chauvinism.

If georgians believed what you were saying above, that we share a similar culture, religion, history, etc. then we'd be in some sort of union with them or confederation. Or at the very least they would not be so hostile to Armenians wanting to learn in their own language in their schools.

I never said we all like Georgians - yes there is sort of a rivalry between us - but the biggest part of the dislike stems from our differing strategic relations (us being close with Russia).

We do share similar history, culture, religion, (only natural as we've been neighbours for ages) - but a confederation does not stem from cultural closeness it stems from purely strategic interests, and Armenia and Georgia don't share the same strategic direction. And both have different problems when it comes to territories (Georgia is territorial integrity, we are self determination).

The hostility in the schools is because Georgians don't want their country to be come too divided anymore. Our culture is not identical and obviously we have differing languages so that point of divide is enough for such hostility.

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

http://rt.com/news/iran-people-church-tv/

An Armenian church is shown in the 1st half of the video.

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Armenians in Armenia do not like georgians that much Mos, either you are lying, or have somehow talked only with the very few who do. Most Hayastanci's (rightfully) dislike georgians and their government because of their chauvinism.

If georgians believed what you were saying above, that we share a similar culture, religion, history, etc. then we'd be in some sort of union with them or confederation. Or at the very least they would not be so hostile to Armenians wanting to learn in their own language in their schools.

http://asbarez.com/94097/whatre-the-...mong%e2%80%a6/ Read this for more reasons why Armenians don't like georgians.

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

again supplying weapons is a business.

[So that makes it okay for Israel to provide weapons to Azerbaijan at a time of war?]

so israelis are elected officials who they know will give weapons to azerbaijan? That's over the top there.

[Israeli politicians are elected not only by "azeri-j3ws," but by every Israeli of voting age. If you and i know that israel sells weapons to Azerbaijan, you can safely conclude the Israeli public does also.]

looks are subjective - you can say that he looks like a turkish-j3w - but it's really flawed to make the conclusion that he is a j3w based off of looks, you have to have concrete evidence or else it doesn't matter.

[Using your logic, it would also be really flawed to conclude Aliyev was Azeri "based off of looks." I didn't intend to 'prove' anything, but wanted to float the idea out there to see if anyone has information. I will tell you this: Ilham Aliyev is not an ethnic Azari.]

and again stop using the weapon supplying thing to pit armenia against israel.

[You're right - we should just pretend Israeli weapons fired at Armenians are in Armenia's interests. I'm sure that's what the Armenian Military does, right? Imagine the head of the Armenian military saying: "Please don't talk about who is giving those rockets, drones, and machine guns to our arch enemy to kill our people during war time - it might hurt the Israelis' feelings.".]

sorry but iran is not equivalent to russia when it comes to our foreign relations.

[Can you find any place where i said they are "equivalent"? Can you find any place where i said this is important for me or Iran to be "equivalent" with Russia? Post a link with my quotes.]

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In the United States Constitution, Article III Section 3 delineates treason as follows: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

Again supplying weapons is a business. Of course it's worrisome that Israel gives weapons to Azerbaijan, but so does Russia which is our closest ally. Actually Azeris have much more Russian weapons than Israeli.

It's impossible for me to be confused by something that I wasn't confused on to begin with: Israel's Pro-Azerbaijan-military policy is made by elected officials chosen by all Israelis -- not just so-called "Azeri-J3ws."

I was referring more to the information war. So Israelis are elected officials who they know will give weapons to Azerbaijan? That's over the top there.

I'm Iranian - I know what a real Azari looks like, and it's certainly not Ilham Aliyev. In my opinion, Ilham Aliyev looks like a Turkish-J3w. There's nothing wrong with being J3wish, but there's a lot wrong with being dishonest about your ethnicity to manipulate a nation, wage war, serve a host country, or do the types of things Attaturk did. You're very sensitive about this subject: Why can't we say that Aliyev, a public figure, looks like a Turkish-J3w?

Looks are subjective - you can say that he looks like a Turkish-J3w - but it's really flawed to make the conclusion that he is a J3w based off of looks, you have to have concrete evidence or else it doesn't matter.

And what is the reason your posts consistently attempt to show Israel in a favorable light while Israel supplies weapons to be used against "the only country (you) care about, Armenia."?

I could care less what light I show Israel or Iran in. I naturally support Iran more because it has better relations with Armenia, but that doesn't mean I'm on a idealogical anti-Israel agenda. And again stop using the weapon supplying thing to pit Armenia against Israel. With that same logic, Armenia would be much worse enemies with Russia.

Write a letter to Iran, and ask the government to stop doing Armenia "favors" (since according to you they don't exist any way) and see how you are received by Armenians. Much what you said could easily be said about Iran also ('they stand by our security,' 'historic military alliance,' etc.).

Sorry but Iran is not equivalent to Russia when it comes to our foreign relations. Russia is our number 1 ally and protector, especially military wise, - our relations with Iran are mostly economical.

I'd like to congratulate you on being elected as the spokesperson for all Armenians in Armenia: Do you get paid in Armenian Dram or Israeli Shekels? (I hope you have a sense of humor.)

I have a credible position to talk from, especially given my interactions with Iranians in Armenia, and observing Iranian-Armenian interactions. But not only that, I know what countries we have closer cultural connection to and that is the post-Soviet sphere as we are all a post-Soviet people that have lived under the same government, language, customs, and so on. Despite not having the same politics, we are very close to Georgians for example when it comes to this connection, both of us ancient Christian nations, with similar history, naturally culture, and Soviet sentiment. Again, parskahyes will have closer connection to Iran because they grew up there, but the same connection just doesn't exist among Armenia's Armenians.

[Federate]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

If Armenia did that then you can kiss Armenian Quarter in Jerusalim goodbye where the religious xxxs spit on us while their moderates in US decieve us in their support against AIPAC, there is a trend in US.

I'm not sure if this is one of the reasons why Armenia does not recognise Palestine but I guess it's logical. Israel is looking to "Jewify" entire Jerusalem and Armenian quarter is not exempted.

Religious J3ws spit on everybody who is not a religious J3w. They don't specifically target Armenians.

This is the map of states that recognise Palestine. Even Azerbaijan and Turkey recognise Palestine.

Perhaps we are not specifically targeted but the bottom line is, we are targeted and at the end of the day, that is unacceptable. We're not gonna sit here and find excuses for these Zionist mofos. The world would be in utter outcry if an Armenian or Christian priest dares to even spit next to a J3wish Rabbi, crying out their "anti-Semitism" crap but here we are talking about how we're not the targets per se? Please. We have to think like a J3w .

BTW, that map does not mean anything. According to that map, Syria doesn't recognise Palestine either . Oh yes true, Syria only went to war with Israel over Palestine 3 times, hosts a PLO and Hamas base and has its own territory under Israeli occupation.

It is not that Armenia has refused to recognise Palestine but rather that there is no official position stated by our government/lack of information. You won't find anywhere on the net of Armenia's refusal or acceptance of Palestine and it is for the simple fact that Armanen mentioned: we will not recognise new nations til our conflict is done. We also probably do not want to add more fuel to the Israeli fire under which we will find ourselves once Azerbaijan starts a war. As for why (better question is 'how') Azerbaijan recognises, it's very simply: big brother Turkey's recognition makes the process much simpler, call it "Muslim solidarity". Their recognition happened years back too but the military contracts never stopped.

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Yes there are elements in the military relations between Israel and Azerbaijan that worry me, but weapon supplying alone can't be used to describe this worry.

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In the United States Constitution, Article III Section 3 delineates treason as follows: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

2) Azeri J3ws in Israel will naturally pursue anti-Armenian policy, don't get them confused with other Israelis not associated with Azeris.

It's impossible for me to be confused by something that I wasn't confused on to begin with: Israel's Pro-Azerbaijan-military policy is made by elected officials chosen by all Israelis -- not just so-called "Azeri-J3ws."

3) Are you seriously suggesting that Aliyev is a J3w or Zionist, merely from his looks? That's pretty ridiculous. By that logic, a large portion of Armenians look j3wish. Please let's stick to credible points of discussion.

Zionism is a political ideology, so DNA doesn't make you "look" "Zionist." Those are your words - not mine: You seem to like straw-man arguments. I'll go out on a limb: Ghandi looks Indian; Mao Tse-tung looks Chinese; Michael Jordan looks African-American; Shah Reza Pahlavi looked Iranian.

I'm Iranian - I know what a real Azari looks like, and it's certainly not Ilham Aliyev. In my opinion, Ilham Aliyev looks like a Turkish-J3w. There's nothing wrong with being J3wish, but there's a lot wrong with being dishonest about your ethnicity to manipulate a nation, wage war, serve a host country, or do the types of things Attaturk did. You're very sensitive about this subject: Why can't we say that Aliyev, a public figure, looks like a Turkish-J3w?

I'm willing to make a guess: Barbara Streisand looks xxxish (My mother thinks she's a great singer BTW).

The only country I care about is Armenia...I will support any country that supports Armenia ... If that country stops supporting Armenia, I won't support it any more.

And what is the reason your posts consistently attempt to show Israel in a favorable light while Israel supplies weapons to be used against "the only country (you) care about, Armenia."?

I have no idealogical grudge against Israel that you seem to have.

Your answer is here as to my views: http://goldstonefacts.org/

Armenians of Armenia don't have any emotional or cultural ties to Iran as I've said, we view Iran as just another external country, but view countries such as Georgia and Russia in a much closer light solely on the fact that we have closer cultural connections to them given our common history. I support Russia the most because of our historic military alliance, and the fact that with out them there would be no Armenia, and possibly Armenians left, and to this day they stand by our security. However, with that I recognise in pursuing these ties Russia also utilises us for their own benefit. Nothing surprising, but still important to remember, that Russia and any other country is not doing as a "favour" or doing charity work.

Write a letter to Iran, and ask the government to stop doing Armenia "favors" (since according to you they don't exist any way) and see how you are received by Armenians. Much what you said could easily be said about Iran also ('they stand by our security,' 'historic military alliance,' etc.).

Armenians of Armenia don't have any emotional or cultural ties to Iran

I'd like to congratulate you on being elected as the spokesperson for all Armenians in Armenia: Do you get paid in Armenian Dram or Israeli Shekels? (I hope you have a sense of humor.)

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

@Persepolis

1) First off, Azerbaijan also gets many weapons from Russia and uses those weapons against us. That doesn't change our close relations with Russia. Weapon supplying is a business, we've gotten weapons from Albania who are historically close with Turkey. It's different however if there are strategic relations between both countries (e.g. military base of the other country in your territory). Yes there are elements in the military relations between Israel and Azerbaijan that worry me, but weapon supplying alone can't be used to describe this worry.

2) Azeri J3ws in Israel will naturally pursue anti-Armenian policy, don't get them confused with other Israelis not associated with Azeris.

3) Are you seriously suggesting that Aliyev is a J3w or Zionist, merely from his looks? That's pretty ridiculous. By that logic, a large portion of Armenians look j3wish. Please let's stick to credible points of discussion.

4) I really could care less about Israel, Iran, etc. The only country I care about is Armenia, with that, I will support any country that supports Armenia at the current moment. If that country stops supporting Armenia, I won't support it any more. As easy as that, relations are dynamic, allies turn into enemies, enemies into allies. I only trust one nation and that is Armenia. The rest of the nations may very well be milking us for their own benefit. That being said, I have no idealogical grudge against Israel that you seem to have. Of course I don't support them because their historic relations with Turkey/Azerbaijan, but that doesn't mean I have a hating grudge against them, because I know relations are done for strategic interests, and relations are also dynamic. As for Iran, I support Iran solely because of its favourable sentiment towards Armenia, and the fact that they have helped us economically. Armenians of Armenia don't have any emotional or cultural ties to Iran as I've said, we view Iran as just another external country, but view countries such as Georgia and Russia in a much closer light solely on the fact that we have closer cultural connections to them given our common history. I support Russia the most because of our historic military alliance, and the fact that with out them there would be no Armenia, and possibly Armenians left, and to this day they stand by our security. However, with that I recognise in pursuing these ties Russia also utilises us for their own benefit. Nothing surprising, but still important to remember, that Russia and any other country is not doing as a "favour" or doing charity work.