How does everyone feel about Israel?

[Azar]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

If Iranians didn't care about religion so much why did they formant such a strong Islamic revolution and turn the country into a theocracy?

It was never meant to be an Islamic revolution, many different people participated in that revolution, from communists to democrats, it wasn't about Islam necessarily, the revolution could of gone another way, but it went to an Islamic Republic unfortunately.

Also the reason for the revolution was more based on the Shah being a Western puppet, it was the Anglo-American coup in 1953 that took away our oil and made our nation a hostage of the USA and Britain for 25 years. Yeah

[Sip]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The difference between Muslims and jews is that Muslims want to kill the jews because they are jews. Jews want to kill Muslims because if they didn't, the Muslims would kill the jews.

And as far as Iran ... it was once a great great country with great potentials and then the west screwed it all up with their thirst for oil and Islamic fundamentalists grabbed it as their opportunity to completely take over and set things back 500 years.

It is not that there is much wrong with Islam. Christianity has had (and still has) many of the same problems. It just seems like the Muslims are a few hundred years behind the Christians in terms of catching up with the ideas of individual freedoms, women's rights, democracy, civil rights, social justice etc. They will catch up eventually I hope (and Iran will also improve again but it will take time).

But for as long as there are massive forces hell bent on destroying the jews, you can be sure the jews will do everything in their power to fight back and regain some control ... and as it is now, you are at a point where you just can't point a finger and blame a single side. Both sides are entirely right and entirely wrong at the same time.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Judaism has not done what Islam has done to the Middle east. In my opinion however the bigger problem is that Muslim countries deeply lack secular societies and have Islam deeply engrained in national politcs and society which highlights the flaws of Islam into the country in question.

I can't believe I'm hearing this. Are you even living on this planet?

Oil. That is what the modern Middle Eastern geopolitics have usually been about. Given the vast energy resources that form the backbone of western economies, influence and involvement in the Middle East has been of paramount importance for the former and current imperial and super powers, including France, Britain, USA and the former Soviet Union.

Prior to the discovery of oil, the region had been a hotbed for religious conflict, and wars over other rich resources and arable land. The interests that the West (primarily Britain and France during European colonial times and now the US) had was been due to the energy and resource interests and to battle against the Ottoman Empire.

As a result, for centuries, the western population has been acclimatized to a type of propaganda and vilification of the Arab and other people of the Middle East, and of Islam in general. This was especially so during the European colonial times, as so vividly examined by Edward Said, in his well-respected book, Orientalism. Both before and after the Ottoman Empire, geopolitically speaking, this negative stereotyping has served to provide justifications for involvement and to ensure "stability" for the powers that wanted to be involved in the region. (I GUESS IT'S WORKING )

http://www.globalissues.org/issue/103/middle-east


Oh and as to why there is so much American Military involvement in the Middle East:


'Zionists control US foreign policy'

Thomas, a former White House journalist, said Israel can never be criticized in the US because Zionists are in control of the American foreign policy as well as its main institutions.

"I can call a president of the US anything in the book, but I can't touch Israel, which has J3wish-only roads in the West Bank," Thomas said.

The 90-year-old national columnist says the White House, Congress, Wall Street and Hollywood are all owned by the Zionists.

"Congress, the White House, Hollywood, and Wall Street are owned by the Zionists. No question, in my opinion," she said.

Thomas also said that she stands by the comments she made about Israel earlier this year, which was condemned by the local J3wish community.

Thomas had said that Israelis should get out of Palestine and return to their homes in Europe and the US.

In an interview, Thomas said that criticizing Israel was the reason she was forced to resign from Hearst Newspapers and was ostracized in Washington.

The longtime White House correspondent, who grew up in Detroit as the daughter of Lebanese immigrants, was in Dearborn for a workshop on anti-Arab bias.

J3wish groups have called Thomas' earlier remarks unfair and bigoted. They have also slammed Thursday's remarks.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/153755.html

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

If we're talking about how secular a society is, Iranian society is pretty secular, there is probably a higher percentage of people who care about religion in Israel than there is in Iran.

People who automatically associate Iran with Islam are ignorant of Iran and Iranians, that's a promise.

If Iranians didn't care about religion so much why did they formant such a strong Islamic revolution and turn the country into a theocracy? Maybe the youth is a little less religious, but still many of the middle aged and older people are religious and support the regime. And the Iranian regime is very religious you can't go wrong there and it has transformed Iran into a very strict Islamic society where things like music are banned in universities or showing a centimetre more of skin can result in bad things...

[Azar]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Judaism has not done what Islam has done to the Middle east. In my opinion however the bigger problem is that Muslim countries deeply lack secular societies and have Islam deeply engrained in national politcs and society which highlights the flaws of Islam into the country in question.

If we're talking about how secular a society is, Iranian society is pretty secular, there is probably a higher percentage of people who care about religion in Israel than there is in Iran.

People who automatically associate Iran with Islam are ignorant of Iran and Iranians, that's a promise.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Now I don't really care that much about Islam as I view it as culturally foreign to Iran, but lets imagine someone said what you just said about xxxs.

It's a backwards religion that we should never associate with and should always be careful in our relations with xxxs.

I think you'd be sounding off the "anti-Semite" alarm

Judaism has not done what Islam has done to the Middle east. In my opinion however the bigger problem is that Muslim countries deeply lack secular societies and have Islam deeply engrained in national politcs and society which highlights the flaws of Islam into the country in question.

[Azar]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

It's a backwards religion that we should never associate with and should always be careful in our relations with Muslims.

Now I don't really care that much about Islam as I view it as culturally foreign to Iran, but lets imagine someone said what you just said about xxxs.

It's a backwards religion that we should never associate with and should always be careful in our relations with xxxs.

I think you'd be sounding off the "anti-Semite" alarm

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

All I'm doing is taking a balanced approach to this conflict, I really could care less what happens in that area, but if I'm to discuss it I will do so in a neutral manner. Again both sides do bad things, and depicting Israelis as the monsters and Palestinians as the only victims is quite an exaggeration and inaccurate. Palestinians do there bad deeds with terrorist attacks/using human shields, Israelis do their bad things by being overly aggressive with their military and overly aggressive retaliations at times. There's propaganda on both sides.

On a more personal level, I've had a few Israeli friends with whom I got along very well and they were actually pretty pro-Armenian and anti-Turkish. They also reflect on the fact that many Israelis believe that the Genocide should be recognized. I'm not going to take a Israeli bias because of these friends, but saying that all Israelis are baby-killers or evil is just really wrong.

Another note,

It seems Armenia doesn't recognize Palestine? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nition-map.png

What's the reason by curiosity... (

[Federate]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

I'm not saying we shouldn't engage in commerce or diplomacy, but declaring that they are our brothers or eternal friends is truly ridiculous, especially given our history. We should keep our distance in our relations with them, and not get to cozy.

Nobody has claimed they are our brother or eternal friends. Nobody is our brother or eternal friend. We should be vigilant with all our relations and not just Muslim states.

[Federate]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The Muslim factions were supported militarily by Iranian and Syrian elements. Analogous to how the Christians were supported by Israel and some Western powers. Using the argument of atrocities committed by Christian factions to somehow implicate Israel as terrorists and at the same time totally ignoring the militant Palestinian groups that target civilians is very far-fetched.

Wrong. We can't even just call them "Muslim" factions because the Muslims were divided during the war and even now, between Sunni, Shi'a and in between political parties too. And they fought each other too. So yet again you generalise all Muslims and throw them in one pot. I even recall earlier you called Iran a part of the Arab world (???), albeit unintentionally it shows a bias you have. And it's not analogous nor is it that simple. The Western powers and Iran are non-factors on the battlefield. The Iranians never played a direct role in the war and were never considered belligerents (unlike Israel and Syria). They were busy with their own war against Iraq. The only support Iran had was moral support in the form of the 1979 Revolution and possible financial support to Shi'a groups (which later came to the founding of Hezbollah in 1987, 3 years before the end of the civil war). And before you say it, no, Hezbollah didn't massacre Christians. I have provided you with 4 counts of widescale massacres by Christian militant groups with one where Israel was directly involved and I explained to you how they were involved in it. The sole widescale massacre done by Palestinians was at Damour, which was sadly a response to the Karantina massacre which is no justification before you claim that I am justifying a massacre, just providing context. BTW I do not like the label terrorists and prefer not to label any side as such. Ironically, what you claim I ignore actually applies to what you are doing and that is putting the terrorist label on one side and ignoring the other. And the whole point of this was to show you that Israel is directly responsible for Sabra and Shatila and you can't wipe their hands clean. We also need to establish that the Christian militias were by far the bloodier side of the conflict as evidenced by their massacres. Not only that but they targeted Armenians we well. So much for Christian brotherhood.

No, they are not hiding only because they want to be near their families. It's a specific attempt to hid in the most populated of places in order to maximize civilian death when Israeli army tries to root them out. And Israel has a right to root these groups out as they conduct terrorist attacks in Israel, and like any country caring about its security it's going to take strict measures. The bottom line is those Palestinian terrorist groups instead of fighting the Israeli army, go out and specifically target civilians which is really disgusting. In Israel's case, it's civilians getting caught in the cross-fire, they aren't going specifically targeting civilians like the Palestinians.

These claims that they purposely hide in populated places is just another claim without any evidence, typical of propaganda. I have explained to you why Israel often kills civilians as collateral damage. Whenever Israel has the chance, it will target its targets with no civilian deaths. But because the Palestinian fighters are always in hiding and away from Israeli drones, they are often only seen during public appearances and Israel takes advantage and blows them up and anyone in the vicinity dies with them. The same applies to them being at home with their families. That's pretty much how the founder of Hamas died a few years ago. But I agree, Palestinians specifically targeting civilians is wrong. But it's also wrong for you to claim that Israel is being unfairly victimised, it deserves all the criticism it gets.

But he's critical of Israel to serve his anti-Semitic purposes, nothing else. This whole "Zionist" hysteria he puts out in order to bolster his own bigoted view of everybody who is not white and protestant and living in the deep south. When a user brings up a video by Dukes as a legitimate source, than I deeply question where that user gets his information from and his intelligence in seeking out Dukes' video.

Again, if I quote Hitler and say he's right (Dukes shares very similar views to him) people would call be a neo-Nazi, so let's not apply double standards here...

Like I said, I don't give a sh!t about David Duke or his views. Whatever his motivations might be, he has put forth claims of Israel and/or Zionist crimes and it's fair to discuss them. And Azar has already confirmed once again that he is not whatever you called him to be, it is insulting. No, you won't be called a Nazi if you quote Hitler. I would certainly not call you one. Hitler has some very good quotes that have nothing to do with Nazism or can exist outside the Nazi context and apply today. For example, if you mentioned the 'Big Lie' technique (invented by Adolf), why on Earth would I or anyone label you a Nazi? It's a concept or an argument.

Oh so Muslims have always treated us well? That's what you're trying to say? This Muslim-Armenian alliance is truly ridiculous, we've been oppressed and targeted often by Muslim powers because of our religion. After all in the Q'uran it says that the infidel (that's us) deserves to be killed. Point out to Byzantines all you want but fact remains fact that over our history the largest source of our oppression has been by Muslim powers. During Cilicia we were allied with the Christian Crusades, and it was a true golden age and cultural renaissance for us during those times of independence.

You assume too much Mos. Where did I say Muslim have always treated us well? In fact, I said we were treated badly under every empire and the Muslims were simply the latest one that destroyed all the others. He who is in power treats its subjects badly. That's it, that's all. The Ottomans treated us like second class citizens but you can't ignore also the Millet system's revolutionary concept of granting us religious freedom, something unheard of before. The Qu'ran calls us Dhimmi yes. The xxxs have a similar idea of us. Non-factors in realpolitik. There is no Muslim-Armenian alliance, where do you come up with these things? You mix religion too much with your politics, it's not how things truly are. It's like if someone saw Armenia and Azerbaijan fighting and thought this was a religious war. In the realpolitik world, nations are only after their own national interests and do not care about Muslim/Christian/Buddhist or whatever stuff in the long run.

oh come'on, have you not heard about all the resolutions they adopted condeming armenia. The biggest supporters of Azerbaijan were Muslim fundamentalists and Pakistan. Can you not accept that yes Muslim terrorist groups were supporting Azerbaijan and killed Armenian soldiers??

The UN also has resolutions condemning Armenia as well. It has hundreds on Israel. Big deal! The problem is again you throwing all Muslims into one bag which is hardly accurate or what goes on in reality. F*k the Afghans and Chechens who fought against us. F*k Pakistan for not recognising us. But thank you Iran for not blockading us during the war. Thank you Egypt, Lebanon and Syria for helping Armenian refugees settle in your countries after the AG. Do you get it?

Fun fact: when the Chechens realised the Azerbaijanis did not give a xxxx about religion and the war was about nationalism and territory, they pulled out of the war.

Oh right, like how you say Israel is at fault for everything in the palestinian-israeli conflict....

Again, where have I said these things?

No religion played a key emotional role for the Turks and Kurds in killing us, the Greeks, and the Assyrians, do not ignore that. Many of these soldiers were simple farmer folks who used Islam to justify the killings and exterminate us from our ancestral homeland. Why else did they target all Christian minorities? The notion of the Armenia-Islam alliance is just truly ridiculous, and believing in such false promises is what has led turbulent times in our history like the genocide. We have to look at reality and not be pro-Muslim like some people here, but pro-Armenian, and be suspicious of everybody else except strong friends.

Please read carefully. Islam was a tool used by the Young Turks to massacre Armenians, it was not a cause of the genocide. The cause of the genocide was Pan-Turan wet dreams. The Young Turks (who weren't even de-facto Muslims) used religion by saying the Christians in the Balkans killed the Muslims there so that the average dumbf*k in the army gets bloodthirst for us. The puppetmasters played the game out successfully. Their true intentions had nothing to do with religion. The Muslim Arabs were also massacred during the AG period. And for the last time, there is no Armenia-Islam alliance lol. And your call on being pro-Armenian is exhibited by all forum members of Armenian descent. But I can point you to a non-pro-Armenian state if you want. (Hint: it's not Christian or Muslim ) Whatever is in the interests of Armenia is what we should be after. Ideally, we should be on good terms with everyone non-hostile to us.