Socio-racial survey for Armenian members

[xBaron Dants]

While my position on the issue is clear, I'd like to say that Gomidas has worked and studied for a long time in Western European countries, and many of his pieces tend to sound more Western than Eastern.

Once again, the other part of his work, which consisted of archiving Armenian folk music from village to village, and which includes Dle Yaman, yevayln, definitely sounds a lot more regional.

[Tigranes]

Can you give me an example of real Armenian folk music?

Listen to Bambir or Gor Mkhitarian for a more modern sound.
Komitas also.
Rouben Hakhverdian's or Arthur Meschians' toenail is more Armenian than all the rabiz dimwits put together.

I agree that Tata is not traditional Armenian music,

It's not Armenian period.

but every culture has its different levels.

No it doesn't.

No culture is based solely on classical music and poetry.

I didn't say it is.

Also, the "oriental influences" of which you speak are not present only in the diaspora. You can see a lot of it in Armenia itself. The people's hospitality, the different traditions and the more-laid back attitude...[/quote]

I didn't say it's only in the Diaspora. In the Diaspora it's Arabic/Turkish while in Armenia it's Iranian/Jewish/Kavkaz.

(as opposed to the colder and more production-oriented Western mentality) has not been imposed on anybody.

Is that a joke? What do you call 600 years of pathetic existance as slaves under subhuman savages? Surely nothing has been imposed, Armenians killed themselves during the Genocide too

It is a part of our culture that has been there for a loooong time, which can also be found in Middle Eastern traditions aaaand Eastern or Mediteranean Europe (such as Greece, yevalyn).

It didn't exist until the fall of our last Kingdom.
While it can be found in Greece and in the Balkans as well, they are at least fighting it and restoring their own culture and traditions instead of giving up like you.

[Tigranes]

do you realize how pathetic that sounds??
DROP the oriental influences???

I do realize how pathetic you sound.

have you NOT heard original Armenian music before?

I have, evidently you have not.

with one of the duduks holding down a single note throughout???

eh?

I would like to hear what part of Sayat Nova or Gomidas is Western.

Sayat Nova is hardly Armenian. It's regugitated Turkish/Arabic/Persian/Caucasus tribal music.

Komitas is quite untouched even though it has slight primitive influnces from savages.

REALLY!
or may be you call Aram Khachadourian's "sword dance" Armenian music??

Correct.

will you STOP wanting DESPARATELY to somehow tie Armenia to Europe?

Armenia is Europe. There's nothing to tie.

cuz it's never worked that way..

Say what?

and it probably never will!!!

Not for you.

but DO tell... about this so called "western" influence in Armenian MUSIC.

Go to a Church or better yet Armenia where you'll discover real Armenian music.

may be some examples??
cuz you obviously have no idea what the hell you're talkin about..

I gave some in the previous post.
I do know what i'm talking about, you have no clue because you're confused.

[xBaron Dants]

Bambir takes traditional Armenian and gives it a Celtic influence. Gor Mkhitaryan's banjo is as Armenian as the hot dog. Rouben Hakhverdian's style is more Russian than anything else.


And who said anything about giving up? We can both be fighting. We just have different opinions of what a worthy cause may be. Just tell me, what traditions must we get rid of exactly, and what must we replace it with?

[Tigranes]

You said that if I don't recognize myself as Eurpean then Europeans shouldn't recognize me either and then you said that a British citizen( "a paki or a negro") does adopts European beliefs and in return Britain or Europe doesn't recognize them anyway.....some irony for you. Just accept it...its not historical times anymore.

You're not very bright are you?
I specifically gave idiot firendly examples of Albanians.
If you're biologically European with a non-European culture you're out.
If you're biologically non-European(sub-saharan negroes or dravidian pakis) with a European ciulture you're out.

Armenians are spread all over the world and don't have any other choice but to incorporate some of that country's beliefs.

Like gypsies.
Consequences of the Genocide and the socio-economical crisis in the former USSR which will be corrected in a generation or two.

Your saying that Armenians in middle east aren't Armenian anymore?

Not quite. Many are but an alarming number aren't.

They probably have more Armenian pride then some Armenians living in Armenia.

I doubt it.

And Armenian culture today( the one where mostly people call European), etc...is 70% or even more influenced by the former USSR, not by Europe...

That's a very narrow viewpoint.

I'm pretty sure the pre-USSR Armenia would of had more influences from those middle eastern countries. by the way, I got nothing against USSR, I'm actually thankful of the it cause if it wasn't for them, there probably wouldn't be Armenia today.

You don't know much about Armenia and Armenians in the Middle Ages, Classical Hellenistic times or Ancient times do you?

[Tigranes]

Bambir takes traditional Armenian and gives it a Celtic influence. Gor Mkhitaryan's banjo is as Armenian as the hot dog. Rouben Hakhverdian's style is more Russian than anything else.

That's absurd

And who said anything about giving up? We can both be fighting. We just have different opinions of what a worthy cause may be.

True. It's sad though that Greeks could do it united while we're entangled in a social civil war.

Just tell me, what traditions must we get rid of exactly, and what must we replace it with?

I'm not talking about adoption but RESTORATION.
It's the little things that make a difference. All the turkish/arab words should be removed from the Armenian language (Greeks did it and are still working on it), all Turkish/Arab names must be removed (Mourad, Maral, Melik etc.), "rabiz" and "kef" destroyed, cuisine re-Armenianized without primitive dishes like lahmadjoun (even the name is Arabic)...

We can argue all we want. I think nature will take it's course now that we have the oppurtunity for self rule.


Let's keep it at this without starting a flame...

[xBaron Dants]

What I said is not absurd my friend. You're just in denial about certain things.

And I agree about removing non-armenian words from our vocabulary, as well as removing the Russian influence in grammar. No point to argue or debate that.

Adgé zad, I just think you're very biased about certain things. Things that are oriental should not be dismissed as primitive. But I think that's an issue that you have to work on yourself, and a completely different topic. Historically speaking, I don't see the Europeans as people that have acted in a much more civilized fashion.

But if we destroy kef music, a la Harout or Tata...to what do we party? Der Voghormia?

And what about musical pieces such as the ones composed by Khachatur Avetisian? Do these live up to your standards?

[Tigranes]

What I said is not absurd my friend. You're just in denial about certain things.

Your assumption is flawed. In your case though I don't think it's as much about denial but ignorance.

And I agree about removing non-armenian words from our vocabulary, as well as removing the Russian influence in grammar. No point to argue or debate that.

Actually having Russian words in Armenian is a natural evolution since both languages are IE, all our languages are connected, on the other hand having turkish or arabic words in Armenian is a degradation.

Adgé zad, I just think you're very biased about certain things.

You bet.

Things that are oriental should not be dismissed as primitive.

Of course not. I respect and admire the Chinese for example. My comments were directed towards Altaics and mohhamedans.

But I think that's an issue that you have to work on yourself, and a completely different topic. Historically speaking, I don't see the Europeans as people that have acted in a much more civilized fashion.

Diagnosis: you suffer from 60+ years of indoctrination within Western society that the White man is guilty of eevrything.

But if we destroy kef music, a la Harout or Tata...to what do we party? Der Voghormia?

You can't believe how many times I have heard that
Whenever I argue about this I mostly hear "Well what are you going to play at your wedding?". Give me a break, that's just pathetic.

Actually, I like Harout and his music. I would never call him rabiz.

And what about musical pieces such as the ones composed by Khachatur Avetisian? Do these live up to your standards?

I like Khachatur Avetisyan also

[xBaron Dants]

Yes, I'm definitely ignorant. The guitar and the banjo have definitely been part of our culture for centuries.

Gor Mkhitaryan himself lists American bands and musicians as his biggest influences, and says that he does not try to make "Armenian" music. But you'd know him better than he, right?

My point was not "what will I play at my wedding". My point was that every culture (or almost) has festive music too. I'd be interested in knowing what you would consider as ours.

And heck, I may be even more critical than you in certain regards. While I enjoy Harout's music, and he is fun to dance to, I don't consider most of his music as "real" Armenian.

Khachatur Avetisyan, in my opinion, represents the renaissance of our traditional music in the 20th century. Roupig Matevosian, Badalian, Ofelia Hambartsumian and all are the people I consider as the ones who sing our true traditional music. Our traditional dance, with its movements, is also much more "refined" than the arabic or kurdish one for example (by refined I mean that the movements are a lot more elegant and,um, noorp. Gomidas, of course, is the cleanest form of Armenian music we have. Aram Khachaturyan, on the other hand, has combined many elements of Georgian, Tcherkez and Kurdish music in his works.

And finally, the White Man is not guilty of everything. He's just not much better than anyone else.

[Azgaser]

Wow.. who the hell is this "Tigranes" clown?

"We Armenians do not differentiate Tata and Amr Diab."

Are you crazy? First of all it's not even the same type of music. Second, how could you possibly compare Tata to a star like Amr Diab?