Are some Jews descendants of Armenians?

[Tigranes]

Anyway, I need sleep being on the East Coast...

Armenian, you have to admit though that your stance on these recurring matters have changed drastically over the past year or so and that's why you seem to "understand" mine better these days.

[Armenian]

"Armenid".

What is this hogwash? There is no such thing as Armenid or Armenoid.

I think most of you are ignoring the fact that majority of the worlds Jews, called Ashkenazi Jews, are descendants of the Khazarian tribes who settled in Eastern Europe/Caucuses, and intermixed with the people, and thus are the Jews whom we call "white". The Sephardic Jews are the Arabic Jews.

Agree with you regarding your Armenoid/Armenid comment. And, I am well aware of the "Khazar" origins of certain Jews. However, this thread addresses an entirely different topic. Nevertheless, the article below, which appeared within the Jew York Times not too long ago, deals with the issue you brought up. In final thought, Jews today (the Jewish establishment and not the average street Shlomo) are just a bunch of freeloading, anti-Armenian, anti-Christian, anti-gentile, paranoid, neurotic, mongrels.

There is nothing similar between us Armenians and Jews.

Armenian

Geneticists Report Finding Central Asian Link to Levites

By NICHOLAS WADE

New York Times: Published: September 27, 2003
A team of geneticists studying the ancestry of Jewish communities has found an unusual genetic signature that occurs in more than half the Levites of Ashkenazi descent. The signature is thought to have originated in Central Asia, not the Near East, which is the ancestral home of Jews. The finding raises the question of how the signature became so widespread among the Levites, an ancient caste of hereditary Jewish priests.

The genetic signature occurs on the male or Y chromosome and comes from a few men, or perhaps a single ancestor, who lived about 1,000 years ago, just as the Ashkenazim were beginning to be established in Europe. Ashkenazim, from whom most American Jews descend, are one of the two main branches of Jews, the other being the Sephardim, whose ancestors were expelled from Spain. The new report, published in the current issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics, was prepared by population geneticists in Israel, the United States and England, who have been studying the genetics of Jewish communities for the last six years.

They say that 52 percent of Levites of Ashkenazi origin have a particular genetic signature that originated in Central Asia, although it is also found less frequently in the Middle East. The ancestor who introduced it into the Ashkenazi Levites could perhaps have been from the Khazars, a Turkic tribe whose king converted to Judaism in the eighth or ninth century, the researchers suggest. Their reasoning is that the signature, a set of DNA variations known as R1a1, is common in the region north of Georgia that was once occupied by the Khazar kingdom. The signature did reach the Near East, probably before the founding of the Jewish community, but it is still rare there. The scholars say they cannot exclude the possibility that a Jewish founder brought the signature on his Y chromosome to the Ashkenazi population, but they consider that a less likely explanation.

The present descendants of the Khazars have not been identified. Dr. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona, one of the authors of the report, said he was looking among the Chuvash, a Turkic-speaking people of the Volga Valley, to see if they might have contributed the R1a1 signature. Dr. Shaye Cohen, professor of Hebrew literature and philosophy at Harvard University, said he could see no problem with outsiders being converted to the Jewish community. He said he considered it less probable, however, that outsiders would become Levites, let alone founding members of the Levite community in Europe. The connection with the Khazars is "all hypothesis," he said.

Even if the Khazar hypothesis is correct, it would have no practical effect on who is a Levite today. "Genetics is not a reality under rabbinic law," Dr. Cohen said. "Second, the function of Levites is so minimal it doesn't mean anything." Six years ago Dr. Hammer and Dr. Karl Skorecki, of the Technion and Rambam Medical Center in Haifa, looked at the Y chromosomes of both Levites and Cohanim. Both are hereditary priesthoods passed from father to son. They were important in ancient Israel, but sometime between 200 B.C. and A.D. 500 their functions were taken over by rabbis, and Jewish status came to be defined by the biologically more reliable standard of maternal descent.

If the patrilineal descent of the two priestly castes had indeed been followed as tradition describes, then all Cohanim should be descended from Aaron, the brother of Moses, and all Levites from Levi, the third son of the patriarch Jacob. Dr. Hammer and Dr. Skorecki found that more than half the Cohanim, in both the Ashkenazi and Sephardi communities, did indeed carry the same genetic signature on their Y chromosome. Their ancestor lived some 3,000 years ago, based on genetic calculations, and may indeed have been Aaron, Dr. Skorecki said. But the picture among the Levites was less clear, suggesting that they had a mixed ancestry. Dr. Hammer and Dr. Skorecki returned to the puzzle for their new report, based on data gathered from nearly 1,000 men of Ashkenazi and Sephardi origin and neighboring non-Jewish populations.

They found that the dominant signature among the Levites was the R1a1 signature, which is different from the Cohanim signature. The paternal ancestry of the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Levites is different, unlike the Cohanim from the two branches, who resemble each other and presumably originated before the two branches split. And the ancestor of the R1a1 signature apparently lived 2,000 years more recently than the founder of the Cohanim signature. The Levites' pedigree does not seem to accord with tradition as well as the Cohanim one does but is venerable nonetheless. "How many people can trace their ancestry back to the 17th century, let alone a thousand years?" Dr. Hammer said.

Source: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/001070.html

[Armenian]

Armenian, you have to admit though that your stance on these recurring matters have changed drastically over the past year or so and that's why you seem to "understand" mine better these days.

Hmmm... lemmi see now! What - have - I - learned - from - you - during - the - past - year - or - so...???

Hmmm... lemmi think...

Oh, I remember now!

I learned that:

All Armenians were once blonde and blue eyed.

All dark eyed and dark haired Armenians are mongrels worthy of death.

Any Armenian who has a "unibrowed" and/or anything less than the beautiful European "Pink" complexion deserves to die.

Any Armenian with a hooked nose is a lowlife mongrel that deserves to die.

Armenians originated within Europe and anyone who claims that Armenians originated in Asia Minor deserves to die.

Europeans are Armenia's best friends and any one who does not agree with you deserves to die.

Any Armenian who eats hummus and listen to Arabic music is not an Armenian and, thus, deserves to die.

I DON’T THINK SO

I have a feeling that you became <<hopeful>> when I admitted that Armenians like Frunzik, Sevak and Khachatrian do not genetically represent our race. However, I am sorry to burst your White Nationalist bubble, I have realized this since my early childhood. Nevertheless, I think that it is you that has in actuality toned down the obsessive racist rhetoric during the past year-or-so. By-the-way, there is nothing wrong with being a racist. All proud nations are ethno-centric or racists to a certian degree. I have a problem with <<obsessive>> and <<destructive>> racism.

As I have stated to you in the past within a couple of other forums, I, generally speaking, agree with your ideology regarding politics, race and culture. Nevertheless, some technical aspects, such as your obsessive formulations concerning where we Armenians originated or how we Armenians have acquired "hooked noses" an/or "unibrows" are utterly nonsensical and self-destructive.

For example: Instead of facing genetic and archeological facts regarding physical characteristics of us Armenians, you resort to turning any Armenian that does not fit your Euro-centric narrow ideal into a ugly mongrel. The simple fact remains that the origination of the prominent/curved nose and abundant body hair, along with the "unibrow" lies, within Anatolia and not within Africa, Arabia, Asia or Europe.

Is abundant body hair and a big nose (one like yours ) a pretty thing to have? The answer is no. However, it doesn't mean that Armenians who do have those genetic traits are mongrels. You have your priorities and perspective all mixed up.

Moreover, having observed you for about a year now, I can tell you that it is fundamentally your 'hateful and vulgar deliverance' that turns me off to you. Everything else, I agree with.

[Tigranes]

I learned that:

All Armenians were once blonde and blue eyed.

As usual I never claimed any of this.
I have said that there were more Armenians with such morphology in the not so distant past than there are now.

All dark eyed and dark haired Armenians are mongrels worthy of death.

Wtf?

Any Armenian who has a "unibrowed" and/or anything less than the beautiful European "Pink" complexion deserves to die.

More

Any Armenian with a hooked nose is a lowlife mongrel that deserves to die.

I don't know about the deserves to die part but yeah...
I don't want them executed. I want acknowledgment that they are not Armenian and reduce their numbers gradually by ending race mixing.

Armenians originated within Europe and anyone who claims that Armenians originated in Asia Minor deserves to die.

Stupid...
Never ever have I said that Armenians originated in Europe but Armenians DID NOT originate Asia Minor. It's a combination of both...

Europeans are Armenia's best friends and any one who does not agree with you deserves to die.

Ok.

Any Armenian who eats hummus and listen to Arabic music is not an Armenian and, thus, deserves to die.

Signed

I have a feeling that you became <<hopeful>> when I admitted that Armenians like Frunzik, Sevak and Khachatrian do not genetically represent our race. However, I am sorry to burst your White Nationalist bubble, I have realized this since my early childhood.

Good for you. I was actually talking about your semantics and behaviour on SF...

Nevertheless, I think that it is you that has in actuality toned down the obsessive racist rhetoric during the past year-or-so. By-the-way, there is nothing wrong with being a racist. All proud nations are ethno-centric or racists to a certian degree. I have a problem with <<obsessive>> and <<destructive>> racism.

You can be the moderate racist
Yeah i'm aggressive, everyone needs their radicals...

As I have stated to you in the past within a couple of other forums, I, generally speaking, agree with your ideology regarding politics, race and culture. Nevertheless, some technical aspects, such as your obsessive formulations concerning where we Armenians originated or how we Armenians have acquired "hooked noses" an/or "unibrows" are utterly nonsensical and self-destructive.

I can say the exact same thing about you! I'm not going to let you or anyone else present fairy tales as facts. I'm not the one spamming forums with the same things over and over either, talk about obsessive.
You never ever bothered to actually argue...ready when you are.

For example: Instead of facing genetic and archeological facts regarding physical characteristics of us Armenians, you resort to turning any Armenian that does not fit your Euro-centric narrow ideal into a ugly mongrel.

Nothing of the sort. I have enough evidence to back up my assertions...
I am Euroentric.

The simple fact remains that the origination of the prominent/curved nose and abundant body hair, along with the "unibrow" lies, within Anatolia and not within Africa, Arabia, Asia or Europe.

That's fine and dandy...Still I will never accept any unibrowed hook nosed freak as my kin regardless of their contributions.

Is abundant body hair and a big nose (one like yours ) a pretty thing to have? The answer is no. However, it doesn't mean that Armenians who do have those genetic traits are mongrels. You have your priorities and perspective all mixed up.

You clearly stated that the examples I povided are not biologically Armenian so wtf are you talking about?

Moreover, having observed you for about a year now, I can tell you that it is fundamentally your 'hateful and vulgar deliverance' that turns me off to you. Everything else, I agree with.

Well, you're not my bride you know...

[nunechka]

one of my close friends is half jew and half armenian... his mommy is armenian... anywho, he looks like a typical armenian, but when i found out he was half jew, i thought, you look like a jew too... but now i notice that armenians and jews look alike...

anywho i dont know if one is a decendent of the other, but we can agree that the way someone looks is mainly based on the region of the globe their ancestors came from. so it may be that we all just lived in similar environments and so we look more alike then different.

i have a little nose that points UP but my eyes are the typical armenian eyes (big, round)... so what does this mean??? nothing, my father's side of the family has big round eyes and my mother's they have the slim nose, both of my parents look like typical armenians...

when i think of physical characteristics, i think of climate, environment, etc... the less those people mix with others from completely different parts of the globe the less they will look different from their ancestors...

i dont know how we can say that they are decendents of armenians, i think they are as original as armenians...

here is something to think about:
Hay
Hrya
Huyn
Hittie

for some reason in our lanugage, these people's cultural identities are only a few sounds different... i am not making a bold statement here, i just want to know why? i think it has something to do with how connected we are to each other.

[MadHandle]

Tigranes is most likely the proper name while Tigran is just a Persianized version

You are asking me questions when you already know my responses.

I have no problems with the racial types common among the non-IE Etruscans, Minoans, Hurro-Urartians etc. Nor do I have a problem with the phenotypes of South Brits, French, Spaniards or any other European people with a prominent or a convex nose. Hell most classic Roman Emperors had a convex nose so did most rulers of the Hittites.
I have a pretty prominent nose myself.

Nevertheless, I do not consider anyone with a hook nose (quite different from a convex "Roman" nose), fat lips, unibrows and so on to be Armenian or any other IE or Europoid person. Examples: Aram Khachatryan or Frunzik Mkrtchyan.

They don't have to be jewish mongrels, they can be iranian, arab, hindu etc. mongrels.

you got issues...I don't even know how you call yourself Armenian with statements like that...

[zeen!]

http://forums.torontoteams.com/viewtopic.php?t=684&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180

read the message I wrote on this site...
We love bashing armenians on this site

and the best part I'm turkish..and the rest are Armenian they bash Armenians even more than I do..
ahhaahahahaahahahaha

[CatWoman]

I really didn't see that much bashing, then again there are 18 pages to it and I don't feel like reading them all.

But I suggest you get a life instead!
Oh and go back to your forum...

[CatWoman]

I don't know about this whole Jew thing, I mean if the anthropologist say they are, who am I to argue? But is it really important, I mean they're Jews NOW and we're Armenian.

Also if Adam and Eve were the first humans, then were all distant cousins, LOL.

[nunechka]

oh no not you again.
with your "armenians and jews are "connected" cuz both words Hay and Hrya start with an H."
lol
your obtuseness amazes me.

gaucho if you read what i wrote you would see that i said that we are not connected!!!