Is it more Armenian then Turkish?

[nunechka]

i was thinking... i know for some its a surprise, and for others its scary... and maybe for a small minority its both...

HOWEVER! ... Don't you think that, considering the migration of the tukish tribes into our lands starting back in 1190 ad, and our people living there WAY! i mean WAAAY! before that, and they still do, that maybe what some poeple say is turkish, is actually armenian with a twist?

I think that we have a lot in common with Persians, but not turks (as a cultural charateristic, as a matter of fact i think we have more in common with arabs then turks, at least arab people are nice)...

i would have to say that considering our history of occupying that land forever, and then having otar poeple migrate there, makes me think that maybe they took Armenian things, and called them turkish, and THEN! they were so much stronger then us, that they killed off half the population, here and there, and now that we have finally come this far, they are not only telling us that we committed genocide against them, but that all the traditions they have are turkish origin? i dont think so, they came and killed armenians took their food, their music, their culture and put their little twist on it and called it turkish?

i hope that one day we can know the truth, but the more i read about how and when and whta happened between the armenians and the turks, the more i am inclined to think that they stole everything from us, and now they say its all turkish...

what are your thoughts on this???

and please dont start Prive Converstations... PM each other if you are urning to do so...

[winoman]

I think it is a bit of both. Obviously you live among and around a people for 900 years something is going to rub off. The Turks are famous for adapting to the ways of the locals - and prior to the Genocide many of the Turkish racist nationalistic leaders realized this and called for a new unique Turkishness that was apart from the "foriegn influence" of the Armenains and Greeks. I think many of our ways and Turkish ways (which are/have become very similar) are based on adaptation to the environment - the land (Anatolia and the Caucuses) - and are a continuation of the ways of some of the peoples that preceeded both of us in these areas (even know - as Raffi had predicted - the Kurds have adopted our ways and live much as Armenians did in places where we had been...).

In some cases it may be possible to realize what was local - such as foods - like apricots and olives and such that grow in Anatolia - and what was brought in by the Turks - arguably shish Kebab (skewered meats...though perhaps lamb was more local to Anatolia - I don't know). I found it interesting in Turkey to attend a traditional dance (in the main ampitheater at Epheses back in 1991) put on by a local Turkish cultural group - I could barely discern any difference from their dances and ours. (I videoed the whole thing BTW...as well as some other Turkish dancing of a different sort! ) Somehow I think that most of these traditional dances were of local (Armenain/Greek) origin originally - but again - in many cases - with the common history going back for as long as it does - it may be very difficult to know for sure.

One thing though - that I have done some research on is carpets. Contrary to conventional wisdom - they did not originate with the nomadic peoples at all - but with sedentary peoples from the Caucuses (Armenians? not sure - but very possibly - or perhaps from our predecessors - it does seem that they originated in the Caucuses with sedentary folks though - that is almost certain). I have some studies on this with examples of ancient carpets(hundreds of years old anyway - that reveal earlier patterns and techniques) and I have visited museums and talked with folks concerning this - we have a wonderful textile museum here in DC where they have had travelling collections of carpets from the Caucuses as well as Anatolian and from the steppes.

And we are building a small collection of Armenian, Cypriot, and Anatolian carpets (and Killims [I don't know the Armenian word for such! shame.. ]) with an emphasis on Christian themes (believe it or not! - though not exclusively - my wife likes the tree of life theme - though most of our carpets are geometric with cross designs - also we have a few with animals and such [Noahs ark!]) - and I have sought out unique carpets (Kilims actually) - some done with special embroidery techniques with mixed silk, wool and cotton - that are quite beautiful and that are only produced by a few Armenian families still living north of Lake Van (sshhh - don't tell anyone!) - a dying art it seems (as they are very laborintensive and not really economically viable to produce it seems). I think we are about carpeted out though - with no room for perhaps half the carpets we own (so walls!)...

[Baron Dants]

Many Armenian things have definitely been given Turkish names, and have thus been "turkified". But it is unfair to say that the Turks have come up with NOTHING over all this time.

Such is the history of the entire region. These cultures have lived alongside each other for so long that the original creator of something (whether an instrument, a food, or whatever) is not clear, and many of those things belong to everyone I guess.

[winoman]

Many Armenian things have definitely been given Turkish names, and have thus been "turkified". But it is unfair to say that the Turks have come up with NOTHING over all this time.

Such is the history of the entire region. These cultures have lived alongside each other for so long that the original creator of something (whether an instrument, a food, or whatever) is not clear, and many of those things belong to everyone I guess.

I sympathize (and agree) with those of us who are upset regarding the Turkish practice of "Turkifying" Armenain places and names - such as the recent move to change the official (full) names of certain plants and animals where reference to "Armenian" is included (ussually substituting Anatolian) - these efforts are a clear continuation of our Genocide and should condemned. But as for the rest - cultural traits that have been adopted and such - where perhasp the origin is less clear - and may always be so - instead of making an issue of devicivness - perhaps here there is oppurtunity to promote reconcilliation and understanding - along the lines of - "we are just like you" or in realizing that we aren't in fact so different after all - as the origin is perhaps less important then the common values we place in the things that speak to us and have meaning for us....that being said it still does tick me off when I see claims of something that clearly have their origin with Armenians being claimed otherwise - Van cats for instance - or the presentation of something historical in Anatolia where the Armenain (or otherwise) contribution or heritage of such is not mentioned or is portrayed as somewhow Turkish - OK - it is now part of the Turkish legacy - in a sense - as they are of Anatolia now - however to deny the Armenian (or other ethnic) component is highly disrespectful and indicative of both the major blind spot and insecurties of the Turkish psyche.

[Anonymouse]

Many Armenian things have definitely been given Turkish names, and have thus been "turkified".

Many people have been Turkified too.

Such is the history of the entire region. These cultures have lived alongside each other for so long that the original creator of something (whether an instrument, a food, or whatever) is not clear, and many of those things belong to everyone I guess.

Not lavash.

[winoman]

Not lavash.

Don't be so quick to assume not....

http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/ubbs/archive/MIDDLE_EASTERN/Bread_Lavash.html

Ok this is more like it!

http://armenians.com/cookbook/viewrecipe.php?id=125

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavash

http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/bread/bread_science.html

http://www.cdkitchen.com/recipes/recs/2/Lavash_Armenian_Thin_Bread16883.shtml

[winoman]

hm - Armenain yes - but '''word of Turkish origin - eh?

http://www.bartleby.com/61/18/L0071850.html

[Anonymouse]

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/l/l0071850.html

"of Armenian origin" who cares about the etymology.

[nunechka]

i would have to agree with anony this time...

i know...

[TUR-Friend]

OMFG! Oh come on folks! Get real! So you say that we (the great Turkish Nation) came to Anatolia without engaging in a single major conflict with you Armenians (the old owners of our eastern land), adopted pretty much all elements of your "culture", and just made up Turkish names for thigns that initially belonged to you?

Hrmm... Maybe...

But if so, we must be such a "cultureless" nation lacking all the techniques of civil/military life, must we not? How come we were able to STEAL your land? Did we kick your ass, or were you just too stupid and we tricked you and got Anatolia? If you were more ADVANCED and GREATER then US, THE TURKS, then why weren't you able to beat us back, and keep Anatolia for yourselves?

If we didn't have any freaking culture, really, then how come we created such a great empire (Ottomans) that reached half of Europe, southern Russia, the entire middle-east and northern Africa? For centuries, up until WW1?

How come Turkey is richer, much more modernized, industrialized...?

Let's look at some numbers... Turkey's GDP = $508.7 billion, Armania's GDP = $13.65 billion. Also, despite Turkey's huge population (70M), an average Turkish citizen happens to have $7,400 USD in his pocket from our national GDP, while an Armanian citizen, (with only 3M in the country) happens to have only $4,600 USD.

And we got all the culture to make all that from you guys, eh?

Sure. Whatever makes you folks happy!