Etymology of Armenian First Names

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

LOL So making "Siamanto" an Armenian First Name would be your contribution to the "preservation" of the Armenian Culture???

No, no Armenian MALE first name ( LOL)… in case you did not get it; I was just joking about it, in my previous post.

Shouldn't you start with those that are "real" Armenian First Names in the list above?? Many of them exist in Shirak's dictionary, I will come back to it once I receive the other two dictionaries.

Which were not real, except for probably Arbi or Arabo??

In any case, that raises the question: What should a dictionary of (Armenian) First Names include?

I'll try to give my own reasoning, below :

1- Of course, it should include the First Names

Yes.

2- It should include the diminutives such Hagopig, Aramig etc.

The diminutives, such as Hakopik or Aramik should come as complements for Hakop or Aram, for instance; Hakop: 'an explanation for the name Hakop' + there exists also Hakopik…

3- It should include "derivatives" such as "Sako," "Artin" that are not First Names; usually, the official name is "Sarkis," "Harout/Haroutioun" etc.

However, the derivatives, contrary to the diminutives, have usually been so "corrupted" and changed that probably could be considered as new names??? Since today they are being used independently.

However, should it include
4- Nicknames - i.e. pen names, war names etc. - that are not derived from First Names and are not widely enough used?

Widely used or rarely used, is not a good criterion to start with- whether to include or exclude a name;
First of all, today I'd rather consider names such as Raffi or Siamanto, Armenian first names, although formerly pen names. Second of all, it is not possible to exclude some Armenian names, just because they are not widely used.

5- Should it include "creative" First Names even if they are/refer to Armenian locations or other symbols i.e. "Nakhitchevan," "Giligia?"

The root of these names is simply Armenian- although not widely spread, unfortunately- but why not include names such as Urfa, Van, or Malatya … but instead include Bakhchangyul in the list???

6- Foreign First Names that are - or were used - used in a particular community reflecting a foreign influence such as "Jean-Claude," "Vladimir" or "Arbi" - I'm not sure if "Arbi" falls in this category but all Arbis that I have met are born in Armenian families from Iran???

In my opinion, no, they should not be included. There are names such as Vladimir, Jean-Claude, Michel, Patrick, etc about which you have no doubt that they are Russian, French or Irish as they are being widely used by these people. So why make these widespread clearly foreign names, Armenian??
But I would not claim the same for Arbi, for two reasons: 1.'We' don't know its exact origin 2. Arbi is not common among non-Armenians.

7- Isolated cases such as "Hasan" - in "Melik Hasan." (Is this a special case of 6?)

It might be a special case of 6, but as I stated before, these Islamo-Turkic craps (here 7 gets separated from 6) should be wiped out of our consciousness. Not only they are not good reminders but also they have got nothing to do with Our Culture. (And interestingly, the Islamic craps such as Hasan, Hussein, Javad, Abbas or Abdul- listed as "Armenian" First Names- which are sometimes being used in Iran as first names, nowadays pass as ugly, backward, old-fashioned and pretty naff names, even in Iran.)

Personally, I simply raised a question when I said - and I think that it's too early to make any assumptions:
"The question is: Is "Raffig" the same as "Rafig/Rafik?" Even if not, are "Raffi" and "Rafig/Rafik" etymologically related?"

And when explaining why the question should be raised, I added - among other reasons:
"2- I don't remember seeing "Raffig/Raffik" in any of the lists, only "Rafig/Rafik/Rapig/Rafik" - which makes it even more confusing???"

My question is; does Raffik(with two ff ) exist at all??? I didn't see Raffik in any of the lists either, just as you had said earlier.

Similar lexical transformations are so common in natural languages and seldom have a semantic or other significance. I would be more careful.
1. Consider the Italian "Raffaele" and the Spanish "Rafael."
2. According to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

There seems to be holes in this Shirak's dictionary??
Some 'lexical' transformations do have semantic significance; my emphasis here is more on "Ռ " and "Ր" and in Armenian language. Take for example բեռ( load) and բեր( bring); the commutation of these two consonnats ( or others) could lead to new words with new meanings. The same could go for "Ռաֆիկ" and "Րաֆֆի"...

Not so fast. Unfortunately, it does not explains it, for the following reasons:
1- Those who are named "Raffi" are often called "Raffig" or "Rafig" therefore they are somehow related.

Ռաֆիկ yes, but we are not sure yet if Րաֆֆիկ exists also or not.

2- As I have already mentioned, Shirak's dictionary relates "Rafig" to both "Raffi" and "Rafael." Furthermore, in the entry for "Raffi," it says "Also, Rafi."
3- As mentioned above, according to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

Weird… but I'd like to verify it with some other sources, and I'd be glad if you check them out, once you receive the other two dictionaries.( To check also, whether "Siamanto" is included or not.)

One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?

No way. Again weird…

Also, according to "Rafiq/Rafik"means friend in Arabic; but I'm inclined to think that it is not related to the Armenian "Rafig/Rafik" that is probably a diminutive

It may not be as simple as that!

I don't think so either. Anyway, you can relate any word to another word in some other languages.

By the way, I felt the same about "Arabo" and "Seroj" - "Seroj" sounds like an iranification of "Serj???"

Why?? Seroj??? How so?? I don't think of it as an iranification but probably a derivative of Serj, just like Sarkis/ Sako??

Also, all the Arbis that I've met were born in Armenian families from Iran.

I didn't know that, actually I hadn't noticed it.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Despite the fact that I started noticing a couple of ideas maturing, taking shape and becoming articulate; I will continue to brainstorm and, in a "couple of days," I will take a step backwards and try to summarize and structure our views.

No, no Armenian MALE first name ( LOL)… in case you did not get it; I was just joking about it, in my previous post.

I know...What do you think I was doing?

Which were not real, except for probably Arbi or Arabo??

Let's come back to the list once I have all three dictionaries. We already have enough to do for now???

The diminutives, such as Hakopik or Aramik should come as complements for Hakop or Aram, for instance; Hakop: 'an explanation for the name Hakop' + there exists also Hakopik…

However, the derivates, contrary to the diminutives, have usually been so "corrupted" and changed that probably could be considered as new names??? Since today they are being used independently.

1. Consider a Use Case where where someone looks for an entry in a dictionary - the person may or may not be familiar with Armenian First Names. Whether diminutives and/or derivatives should have their own entry or be included in the entry of the "root" First Name can be considered as an organizational - or "navigational" - detail aiming to facilitate the search or lookup.
The main purpose of a dictionary is to provide an explanation to the user in the easiest and most complete, accurate manner.

2. I don't know if "today they are being used independently????" Of course, there may be some exceptions???
My experience suggests that "Sako" is still used for "Sarkis," "Artin" is used - among senior Armenians??? - for "Haroutioun" etc.

However, should it include
4- Nicknames - i.e. pen names, war names etc. - that are not derived from First Names and are not widely enough used?

Widely used or rarely used, is not a good criterion to start with- whether to include or exclude a name;
First of all, today I'd rather consider names such as Raffi or Siamanto, Armenian first names, although formerly pen names. Second of all, it is not possible to exclude some Armenian names, just because they are not widely used.

1- Consider the "how widely it is used" as one aspect of the usage of a First Name, as opposed to the origin; for instance, consider the discussion of "Arbi" and "Sebastian" further below.
From an etymological point of view, both the origin and the usage of a word/name are of relevance.

2- At this point, I would not compare "Raffi" and "Siamanto" for the following reasons
2.1 "Raffi" is quite widely used
2.2 "Raffi" is also used by non-Armenians; for instance, Iranians - see links further below
2.3 We don't know if "Raffi" predated the novelist or not??

3- Considering that I have chosen "Siamanto" as my alias, I would also consider "Siamanto" as a First Name; but, that's nothing but a personal choice.

5- Should it include "creative" First Names even if they are/refer to Armenian locations or other symbols i.e. "Nakhitchevan," "Giligia?"

The root of these names is simply Armenian- although not widely spread, unfortunately- but why not include names such as Urfa, Van, or Malatya … but instead include Bakhchangyul in the list???

This started looking somehow similar to the "pen name case."
Can - or should - a dictionary include all infrequent and "creative" cases? Even if, in principle, I can go both ways but, in practice, one has to draw the line; otherwise, it may become overwhelming??? In any case, the reader should be told about the infrequent and "creative" aspect of it.

Again, both the usage and the origin are etymologically relevant.

6- Foreign First Names that are - or were used - used in a particular community reflecting a foreign influence such as "Jean-Claude," "Vladimir" or "Arbi" - I'm not sure if "Arbi" falls in this category but all Arbis that I have met are born in Armenian families from Iran???

In my opinion, no, they should not be included. There are names such as Vladimir, Jean-Claude, Michel, Patrick, etc about which you have no doubt that they are Russian, French or Irish as they are being widely used by these people. So why make these widespread clearly foreign names, Armenian??
But I would not claim the same for Arbi, for two reasons: 1.'We' don't know its exact origin 2. Arbi is not common among non-Armenians.

It makes sense, however
1. Many - if not most - Armenian First Names were once in the same category including "Krikor???" and "Roupen???" etc. etc. I think that it's a matter of time and how widely it is used before a loaned First Name becomes Armenian???

2. I agree, in principle; but, again, consider it also from the point of view of the user of the dictionary who's looking for answers about his/her past or a community he/she just discovered - a community that may include many Vladimirs, Igors or Jean-Claudes.
Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.

3. I hear you about "Arbi;" however, do we know the exact origin of "Sebastian?" Is it an Armenian First Name? What about the city of Sebastia? Also, I don't know when the city of Sebastopol was founded but, wasn't the region around Sebastopol called "Maritime Armenia?" Isn't "Sebastian/Sebastien" more common among non-Armenians - for instance, among the French?

7- Isolated cases such as "Hasan" - in "Melik Hasan." (Is this a special case of 6?)

It might be a special case of 6, but as I stated before, these Islamo-Turkic craps (here 7 gets separated from 6) should be wiped out of our consciousness. Not only they are not good reminders but also they have got nothing to do with Our Culture. (And interestingly, the Islamic craps such as Hasan, Hussein, Javad, Abbas or Abdul- listed as "Armenian" First Names- which are sometimes being used in Iran as first names, nowadays pass as ugly, backward, old-fashioned and pretty naff names, even in Iran.)

1. Again, as in 6, consider someone who is not familiar enough with the Armenian Culture - can even be a member of the Diaspora -
reads about Melik Hasan; shouldn't the dictionary include an entry and provide an explanation regarding the non-Armenian origin?

2. "Islamo-Turkic crap" or Russian/French loan, isn't it the same from an etymological and dictionary point of view?

My question is; does Raffik(with two ff ) exist at all??? I didn't see Raffik in any of the lists either, just as you had said earlier.

We seem to agree that "Raffik/Raffig" probably does not exist.
Forgetting the orthograph, are "Raffi" and "Rafael" etymologically related? That's what matters to me and the collected data does not seem decisive, so far.

Similar lexical transformations are so common in natural languages and seldom have a semantic or other significance. I would be more careful.
1. Consider the Italian "Raffaele" and the Spanish "Rafael."
2. According to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

There seems to be holes in this Shirak's dictionary??
Some 'lexical' transformations do have semantic significance; my emphasis here is more on "Ռ " and "Ր" and in Armenian language. Take for example բեռ( load) and բեր( bring); the commutation of these two consonnats ( or others) could lead to new words with new meanings. The same could go for "Ռաֆիկ" and "Րաֆֆի"...

1. The Armenian section of Armenian Names includes "ՐԱՖՖԻ" only, while Shirak includes only "Ռաֆֆի." Also, both "Ռաֆֆի" and "ՐԱՖՖԻ" seem to exist, in reality, as a First Name. LOL It's seem like a big mess??? Can it be a "dialectal/regional" difference????

2. I thought that the focus was how "Raffi" and "Rafel/Raphael/Rafel/Raffaele/Rapael/..." were transliterated in Armenian? I had in mind lexical transformations across different languages where a word of the same origin is transformed through time; "բեռ( load) and բեր( bring)" may not be an appropriate example.

Ռաֆիկ yes, but we are not sure yet if Րաֆֆիկ exists also or not.

Please see my answer above to a similar question.

Weird… but I'd like to verify it with some other sources, and I'd be glad if you check them out, once you receive the other two dictionaries.

Please see my answer above to a similar question.

One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?

No way. Again weird…

It seems that both "Rafi" and "Raffi" are used among Iranians - including in the past.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama
Present: Rafi Pitts or Raffi Pitts

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi
Last Name: Ali Raffi

"Rafi" was also used among Arabs and J-e-w-s; however, most likely, it was a loan from Persians???? Also, the J-e-w-ish "Rafi" - but not the Arabic - is probably???? - I did not check - a diminutive of "Raphael/Rafael???"

Why?? Seroj??? How so?? I don't think of it as an iranification but probably a derivant of Serj, just like Sarkis/ Sako??

Because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit and both "Seroj" and "Serj" would be written in the same way in Farsi???
It seems like an obvious transformation???

Also, all the Arbis that I've met were born in Armenian families from Iran.

I didn't know that, actually I hadn't noticed it.

The same applies to "Narbi???" I'm aware that it's only a personal experience, but I have never any Armenian named "Arbi" or "Narbi" who was not born in an Armenian family from Iran.

[Sip]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

It seems that both "Rafi" and "Raffi" is used among Iranians - and Persians in the past.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama
Present: Rafi Pitts or Raffi Pitts

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi
Last Name: Ali Raffi

I simply cannot understand why you are so reluctant to admit Lucin is right about Siamanto being an Armenian male name.

Here are some links for you:

Here's a Siamanto Garabedian
Here's a Siamanto Avakian and another ref to Siamanto Avakian (pdf file)
Here's a Siamanto Maronian
Here's another reference to Siamanto Maronian in case you were going to claim that might be a pen name.
Here's a Siamanto Etian
Here's a Siamanto Oknaian (there is a Siamanto Ismaily on that site too from Portugal).
Here's Siamanto Oknaian again.
Here's a Siamanto Somokian
Here's a Siamanto Martirossian

And this is from just a quick google search. I mean how many more do I have to find until you will admit you were wrong and that Siamanto is in fact an Armenian name that is typically given to males (as opposed to females).

Oh and if you are going to claim I went around and edited all those websites, I hope you will think twice about what it really is you are trying to say. All this discussion because you just can't get yourself to admit publically you were wrong? It's not that hard. Everyone knows it

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

I simply cannot understand why you are so reluctant to admit Lucin is right about Siamanto being an Armenian male name.

Don't worry too much because there's' little you seem to understand; but, before I answer - again - your superfluous question in point 4 below, I will make some relevant comments:

1. I'm glad to see that my approach to show the usage of "Raffi/Rafi" among Iranians gave you the idea to, finally, produce something other than your usual hot air. Unfortunately, as we'll see later, you have done - as usual - a poor job.

2. The consensus among "specialists - i.e. people who have apparently spent enough time on the subject - such as the author of Shiraks' dictionary and the most "reliable" sites on the subject mentioned above, being what it is, then I suggest that you contact them and ask them why they are "reluctant to admit [that] Lucin is right about Siamanto being an Armenian male name" and why they "can't get themselves to admit public[al]ly [that] they were wrong?"
They may be amused as much as I am.

3. Is it about "Lucin being right" or is it about you and your obsession? You seem to be obsessed with something - whatever it is - but why are you hiding behind someone else? How low is your sense of morality?

4. Most importantly, you don't seem to understand - not surprisingly - that
4.1. Some of us base their decision on reliable data instead of hot air as you do
4.2. We still did not gather enough data to answer decisively the questions that I've raised in my reply to Lucin, reproduced below

Well, it is typically a name given to males (as Sip said) an example is my aunt's husband

Siamanto is a pen name that was assumed by a male poet and may be used to name either a boy or a girl; it is not even an Armenian First Name. You know a single male person who was probably named after Siamanto, the poet, and you use the word "typically???"
Why not something like: "Because it was used as a pen name by a male poet, it would be rather used to name a boy child than a girl?" Too moderate or more accurate for your taste???
Honestly, I wonder if there are - or has been - enough Armenians - around the world - named "Siamanto" in order to use the word "typically."

Here are some links for you:

Here's a Siamanto Garabedian
Here's a Siamanto Avakian and another ref to Siamanto Avakian (pdf file)
Here's a Siamanto Maronian
Here's another reference to Siamanto Maronian in case you were going to claim that might be a pen name.
Here's a Siamanto Etian
Here's a Siamanto Oknaian (there is a Siamanto Ismaily on that site too from Portugal).
Here's Siamanto Oknaian again.
Here's a Siamanto Somokian
Here's a Siamanto Martirossian

And this is from just a quick google search. I mean how many more do I have to find until you will admit you were wrong and that Siamanto is in fact an Armenian name that is typically given to males (as opposed to females).

"Genius," LOL where does it say that they are females? I'm not making any assumptions on their gender, but LOL do you see anything on those pages that mentions or suggests that they are males? LOL Just because you want them to be males, they should be or are males? With all due respect, even jurks are not as dumb as you are.
The poor quality of your work and the mediocre quality of your reasoning is pitiful and saddening.

Also, I don't know if it matters whether it was a "quick google search" or not; but the words of a sore loser with almost no sense of morality, a coward who hides behind someone else and a most-likely-fraud with no sense of Intellectual Integrity who is obsessively trying to either annoy or save face are worthless.

Oh and if you are going to claim I went around and edited all those websites, I hope you will think twice about what it really is you are trying to say.

Kogh sird@ togh? I don't take such an accusation lightly and I would not accuse someone so easily.
For Armeniapedia, the events suggests that you - whether personally or by proxy -
1. Have probably tempered with the data before presenting it as a document that supports your point
2. When I raised the issue, you disappeared all evening and night - so odd for someone who seems to be around 24/7
3. When you reappeared, early morning, the content of the "History" tab was altered
One can't be sure, but it's suspicious enough and considering your sense of morality and lack of Intellectual Integrity, guess what I may assume???

Get over it and stop torturing yourself with your attempts to save face.

All this discussion because you just can't get yourself to admit publically you were wrong? It's not that hard. Everyone knows it

I think that you're becoming obsessed with your own illusions; because this thread has nothing to do with your illusory issue.
If you have anything useful to add, please do so and it will be appreciated; otherwise, please take your hot air and whining somewhere else, or go play with the jurks - LOL where are they when you need them? - and people who are of your mental age.

Don't you have enough of your never ending and obsessive whining? Is it helping you?

[Sip]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Will someone please provide the cliffs notes version of what this guy is babbling about? I lost track somewhere in between "there's little you understand" to "obsessive whining".

Until then, all I can say is WTF?

Are you b!tching about Siamanto not being an Armenian name, or Siamanto not being a male Armenian name? If you are b!tching about the former, obviously you have no ground to stand as I have clearly provided you a list of Armenians. If you are b!tching about the latter, do your books list Siamanto as a "female" name?

[zourna]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Roupen, haunts me!
Not that I don't like the name. My favorite by the way.
Roupinian ishkhanoutioun is all that I have for reference as for it's etymology, however I have no clue of it's connotation, that if their is one in the first place.
Enlighten me, please.

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

1. Consider a Use Case where where someone looks for an entry in a dictionary - the person may or may not be familiar with Armenian First Names. Whether diminutives and/or derivatives should have their own entry or be included in the entry of the "root" First Name can be considered as an organizational - or "navigational" - detail aiming to facilitate the search or lookup.
The main purpose of a dictionary is to provide an explanation to the user in the easiest and most complete, accurate manner.

Yes, I didn't say otherwise. And I think the inclusion of the diminutives and derivatives in that manner (the way I had explained) is organized, and pretty comprehensive. But again it could be a matter of taste as well.

2. I don't know if "today they are being used independently????" Of course, there may be some exceptions???
My experience suggests that "Sako" is still used for "Sarkis," "Artin" is used - among senior Armenians??? - for "Haroutioun" etc.

This is true, but today Artins, Arutins or Sakos are actually being used independently, as opposed to seniors.

1- Consider the "how widely it is used" as one aspect of the usage of a First Name, as opposed to the origin; for instance, consider the discussion of "Arbi" and "Sebastian" further below.
From an etymological point of view, both the origin and the usage of a word/name are of relevance.

Do you really think a dictionary should tell about the frequency or the infrequency of a name?
How is this possible??? There are names used widely, there are names used rarely, names used very rarely… there will be many categorizations and levels regarding the usage of the names.

2- At this point, I would not compare "Raffi" and "Siamanto" for the following reasons
2.1 "Raffi" is quite widely used
2.2 "Raffi" is also used by non-Armenians; for instance, Iranians - see links further below
2.3 We don't know if "Raffi" predated the novelist or not??

It seems that both "Rafi" and "Raffi" are used among Iranians - including in the past.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama
Present: Rafi Pitts or Raffi Pitts

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi
Last Name: Ali Raffi

"Rafi" was also used among Arabs and J-e-w-s; however, most likely, it was a loan from Persians???? Also, the J-e-w-ish "Rafi" - but not the Arabic - is probably???? - I did not check - a diminutive of "Raphael/Rafael???"

LOL, now I see… Րաֆֆի is not used by the Iranians, however there is a common surname among them, which looks like 'Rafi' while written in English (in Latin letters). The surname is pronounced as Ռաֆիը or Ռաֆիի (the 'ա' is pronounced as in 'sad'); my transliteration in Armenian, given above, is something similar and close to its original pronunciation in Persian but not the exact one as there is a letter in this Persian/Arabic word that simply does not exist neither in Armenian nor in English. LOL, you've got to hear my voice to see what I mean.
Also, the word interestingly means tall and outstanding. It seems to me far from our "Րաֆֆի" but again this is not for sure; since here is another point; Raffi, the novelist was born in Salmas, a city in the north of Iran, considering this fact, could his pen name be actually a Persian/Arabic influence???

If the accuracy of its Persian/Arabic origin is proved then it has predated the novelist.
By the way,the links you provided to prove that 'Rafi' is an "Iranian" name were not accurate.( For one of the reasons, see my explanation above)

It makes sense, however
1. Many - if not most - Armenian First Names were once in the same category including "Krikor???" and "Roupen???" etc. etc. I think that it's a matter of time and how widely it is used before a loaned First Name becomes Armenian???

Maybe but till then we'd rather not include them. As for Grigor or Rouben, it seems that they have been kind of Armenianized…

2. I agree, in principle; but, again, consider it also from the point of view of the user of the dictionary who's looking for answers about his/her past or a community he/she just discovered - a community that may include many Vladimirs, Igors or Jean-Claudes.
Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.

Lol, if we take into consideration these small cases, then we should include all the non-Armenian names used by Diasporan Armenians in different corners of the world, names such as Joe, Jack, Bryan, Jean… basically I don't agree with it.
If I personally were a non-Armenian, and had to see for instance Jacques or Jean-Claude(uniquely used by French Armenians and the French) in an Armenian names' dictionary, I would be a bit confused… Furthermore, imagine how many French names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names.

3. I hear you about "Arbi;" however, do we know the exact origin of "Sebastian?" Is it an Armenian First Name? What about the city of Sebastia? Also, I don't know when the city of Sebastopol was founded but, wasn't the region around Sebastopol called "Maritime Armenia?" Isn't "Sebastian/Sebastien" more common among non-Armenians - for instance, among the French?

Not sure if Sebastia or Sebastapol is Armenian( as a word). It's not an appropriate example.

1. Again, as in 6, consider someone who is not familiar enough with the Armenian Culture - can even be a member of the Diaspora -
reads about Melik Hasan; shouldn't the dictionary include an entry and provide an explanation regarding the non-Armenian origin?

I hear you but it seems unnecessary since they disappear gradually???

2. "Islamo-Turkic crap" or Russian/French loan, isn't it the same from an etymological and dictionary point of view?

Technically it is the same but the difference is that the Islamic crap is gradually being forgotten as far as I know, however the French or Russian loans are widespread (unfortunately).

We seem to agree that "Raffik/Raffig" probably does not exist.
Forgetting the orthograph, are "Raffi" and "Rafael" etymologically related? That's what matters to me and the collected data does not seem decisive, so far.

Considering the Arabic origin as "correct", then they cannot be related.

1. The Armenian section of Armenian Names includes "ՐԱՖՖԻ" only, while Shirak includes only "Ռաֆֆի." Also, both "Ռաֆֆի" and "ՐԱՖՖԻ" seem to exist, in reality, as a First Name. LOL It's seem like a big mess??? Can it be a "dialectal/regional" difference????

LOL, the late writer used Րաֆֆի as his pen name, I don't know where Ռաֆֆի comes from???

2. I thought that the focus was how "Raffi" and "Rafel/Raphael/Rafel/Raffaele/Rapael/..." were transliterated in Armenian? I had in mind lexical transformations across different languages where a word of the same origin is transformed through time; "բեռ( load) and բեր( bring)" may not be an appropriate example.

Yes, the focus was on Raffi and I just wanted to show that Րաֆֆի and Ռաֆաէլ may not be related either.

Because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit and both "Seroj" and "Serj" would be written in the same way in Farsi???
It seems like an obvious transformation???

Vowels between the letters (inside the word) are not explicit but in 'Serj' there is no vowel between 'r' and 'j'. However, we can put this, another way; considering that Persians have sometimes difficulty pronouncing two successive consonants, so the 'o' may facilitate the pronunciation for them. But it's just an assumption.

The same applies to "Narbi???" I'm aware that it's only a personal experience, but I have never any Armenian named "Arbi" or "Narbi" who was not born in an Armenian family from Iran.

Maybe… it's Narbe.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Roupen, haunts me!
Not that I don't like the name. My favorite by the way.
Roupinian ishkhanoutioun is all that I have for reference as for it's etymology, however I have no clue of it's connotation, that if their is one in the first place.
Enlighten me, please.

We may come back to it later; but, for now, "chew on this:"
1. "Ruben" seems to be the Iberian form of the Hebrew "Reuven." Was it introduced among Armenians from the South - i.e. Persian/Semitic influence - the West - Greek/Latin/European influence - or...?
2. It is composed of "Reu/Ru" that means "behold" and "ven/ben" that means son, in Hebrew.
3. It was used, at least, since the 11th Century by the prince who have founded the Roupinian/Rubinian dynasty. The prince was, apparently, among those Armenians who moved West from the Eastern regions of historic Armenian after the Seljuks invasions.
Was it used earlier?

Why is it "haunting" you? If it's "haunting" you, would you care to you contribute to the thread with data, as you can? Thanks. After all, the thread is meant to be a collaborative effort and not a service that we provide to the forum members.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Two preliminary comments:
1. I have noticed that you have started to appreciate the importance of the usage of a word, besides and regardless of it's origins
2. You continue to give too much imortance to certain lexical or phonetic differences, specially when different languages, regions and periods are considered.
As a Diasporan Armenian you have probably had the opportunity to witness all the many ways Armenian First Names can be transliterated, transformed and "butchered."

Yes, I didn't say otherwise. And I think the inclusion of the diminutives and derivatives in that manner (the way I had explained) is organized, and pretty comprehensive. But again it could be a matter of taste as well.

Yes, unless one organization is shown to have all features of another, plus other desirable ones, then it is a matter of taste.

2. I don't know if "today they are being used independently????" Of course, there may be some exceptions???
My experience suggests that "Sako" is still used for "Sarkis," "Artin" is used - among senior Armenians??? - for "Haroutioun" etc.

This is true, but today Artins, Arutins or Sakos are actually being used independently, as opposed to seniors.

1. Just curious, what do you exactly mean by "independently?" Does it mean that their Birth Certificate says "Sako" instead of "Sarkis?" If yes, to what percentage of cases does it apply? According to my experience, a person called "Sako" in life, is called "Sarkis" on the Birth Certificate and a person called "Artin," "Haroutioun." Of course, there may be exceptions, but how often does it occur?

2. As you can tell from the above that "among senior Armenians" was applied only to "Artin." I don't know how it is in Iran, but I don't know if the younger generations use "Artin" for "Haroutioun."
Are you saying that young Armenians call a Harout "Artin" and/or have "Artin" - as First Name - on their Birth Certificate?

Do you really think a dictionary should tell about the frequency or the infrequency of a name?
How is this possible??? There are names used widely, there are names used rarely, names used very rarely… there will be many categorizations and levels regarding the usage of the names.

Why not? It's nothing unusual, even in a regular dictionary, because a dictionary is not only about the meaning or origin of a word, it's also about the usage of a word.
How is it possible? That is a simple technical detail. What is the challenge?

It seems that both "Rafi" and "Raffi" are used among Iranians - including in the past.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama
Present: Rafi Pitts or Raffi Pitts

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi
Last Name: Ali Raffi

"Rafi" was also used among Arabs and J-e-w-s; however, most likely, it was a loan from Persians???? Also, the J-e-w-ish "Rafi" - but not the Arabic - is probably???? - I did not check - a diminutive of "Raphael/Rafael???"

LOL, now I see… Րաֆֆի is not used by the Iranians, however there is a common surname among them, which looks like 'Rafi' while written in English (in Latin letters). The surname is pronounced as Ռաֆիը or Ռաֆիի (the 'ա' is pronounced as in 'sad'); my transliteration in Armenian, given above, is something similar and close to its original pronunciation in Persian but not the exact one as there is a letter in this Persian/Arabic word that simply does not exist neither in Armenian nor in English. LOL, you've got to hear my voice to see what I mean.
....
By the way,the links you provided to prove that 'Rafi' is an "Iranian" name were not accurate.( For one of the reasons, see my explanation above)

LOL But you're seeing either blurry or magnified.
1. I don't understand your statement "however there is a common surname" when I gave examples of "Raffi" and "Rafi" used not only as a surname but also as a First Name; I even organized them to make it more obvious????

2. LOL *stares at you and smiles about the 'ը '* What makes you think that Armenians did not drop the 'ը' as well as some? What makes you think that Iranians did not add the 'ը'? Have you heard of the expression "You say tomato, I say tomahto?"
Similar differences in pronunciation exist between different regions and communities speaking the same language. Simply compare how Armenians from Iran pronounce the vowels in Armenian to - for instance - Armenians speaking Western Armenians. I'm not even talking about regional dialects.
By the way, for my ears, compared to other Armenians, Armenians from Iran, pronounce the 'ա' differently in every word.

3. Can you please explain in what sense the links are not "accurate" - so I can look for more "accurate" ones - because your explanation above was nowhere near convincing? Thanks.

As I see it, "Rafi/Raffi" was used among Iranians, in the past and the present.

Also, the word interestingly means tall and outstanding. It seems to me far from our "Րաֆֆի" but again this is not for sure; since here is another point; Raffi, the novelist was born in Salmas, a city in the north of Iran, considering this fact, could his pen name be actually a Persian/Arabic influence???

What do you mean by "seems to me far from our 'Րաֆֆի?'" LOL *hopes that you don't mean physically*
What is your point?

If the accuracy of its Persian/Arabic origin is proved then it has predated the novelist.

As you know, my initial inclination was that the First Name - regardless of the origin - predates the writer and, so far, the collected data favors that scenario.

1. Many - if not most - Armenian First Names were once in the same category including "Krikor???" and "Roupen???" etc. etc. I think that it's a matter of time and how widely it is used before a loaned First Name becomes Armenian???

Maybe but till then we'd rather not include them. As for Grigor or Rouben, it seems that they have been kind of Armenianized…

I'm glad that you finally started to appreciate the relevance of the usage at opposed to the origin??? However, please keep in mind that it's only one of the parameters.

2. I agree, in principle; but, again, consider it also from the point of view of the user of the dictionary who's looking for answers about his/her past or a community he/she just discovered - a community that may include many Vladimirs, Igors or Jean-Claudes.
Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.

Lol, if we take into consideration these small cases, then we should include all the non-Armenian names used by Diasporan Armenians in different corners of the world, names such as Joe, Jack, Bryan, Jean… basically I don't agree with it.
If I personally were a non-Armenian, and had to see for instance Jacques or Jean-Claude(uniquely used by French Armenians and the French) in an Armenian names' dictionary, I would be a bit confused… Furthermore, imagine how many French names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names.

1. I would not discard those cases that easily, as they are, from a usage point of view, much less "small cases" than "Siamanto" because it's more likely to meet an Armenian bearing one of the above mentioned names.

2. "How many French [or Russian, American, Iranian etc.] names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names?" The answer was already suggested i.e.
" Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.'

3. I hear you about "Arbi;" however, do we know the exact origin of "Sebastian?" Is it an Armenian First Name? What about the city of Sebastia? Also, I don't know when the city of Sebastopol was founded but, wasn't the region around Sebastopol called "Maritime Armenia?" Isn't "Sebastian/Sebastien" more common among non-Armenians - for instance, among the French?

Not sure if Sebastia or Sebastapol is Armenian( as a word). It's not an appropriate example.

LOL because "Arbi" is "Armenian( as a word?)"
On a more serious not, Sebastia was a historic Armenian city and Sebastopol is located in a region called "Maritime Armenia" - so the point was that "Sebastian" may have an Armenian origin; yet, it's more commonly used among non-Armenians.
Do you remember your comments about "Arbi" being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians?

I hear you but it seems unnecessary since they disappear gradually???

So? Dictionaries often include obsolete uses of a word.
Yes, usage is important; however, other relevant parameters should also be considered.

Technically it is the same but the difference is that the Islamic crap is gradually being forgotten as far as I know, however the French or Russian loans are widespread (unfortunately).

For now, let's keep aside our personal preferences and focus on the etymology.
Yes, usage is important; however, other relevant parameters should also be considered.

Forgetting the orthograph, are "Raffi" and "Rafael" etymologically related? That's what matters to me and the collected data does not seem decisive, so far.

Considering the Arabic origin as "correct", then they cannot be related.

It can also be that "Raffi" has two origins i.e.
1. A Perso-Arabic origin
2. A diminutive of "Rafael/Rapael" that may or may not have initially been "Rafi/Rapi"
At times, usage and time erode differences and creates "confusion" or add "noise" to create differences.
That's my inclination, but we don't know yet.

LOL, the late writer used Րաֆֆի as his pen name, I don't know where Ռաֆֆի comes from???

According to Shirak's dictionary - and it insists - the late writer changed B]Ռ[/B]աֆֆի to Րաֆֆի.
Is that impossible? Do you have data to disprove it? It would be nice to find a biographical document about Raffi, the novelist, that addresses this issue.

2. I thought that the focus was how "Raffi" and "Rafel/Raphael/Rafel/Raffaele/Rapael/..." were transliterated in Armenian? I had in mind lexical transformations across different languages where a word of the same origin is transformed through time; "բեռ( load) and բեր( bring)" may not be an appropriate example.

Yes, the focus was on Raffi and I just wanted to show that Րաֆֆի and Ռաֆաէլ may not be related either.

LOL The focus was on how "Raffi" and "Rafel/Raphael/Rafel/Raffaele/Rapael/..." were transliterated in Armenian and I was trying to point to the fact that such lexical transformations are not enough to "show that Րաֆֆի and Ռաֆաէլ may not be related."

Because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit and both "Seroj" and "Serj" would be written in the same way in Farsi???
It seems like an obvious transformation???

Vowels between the letters (inside the word) are not explicit but in 'Serj' there is no vowel between 'r' and 'j'. However, we can put this, another way; considering that Persians have sometimes difficulty pronouncing two successive consonants, so the 'o' may facilitate the pronunciation for them. But it's just an assumption.

LOL *stares at you and smiles* But in "Seroj" there exists a vowel between 'r' and 'j' that was probably added because because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit???

Maybe… it's Narbe.

Thanks. Both seem to exist but "Narbe" is the more common transliteration. The difference seems like "Arout" and "Kharout" i.e. speakers of different languages would not only pronounce words differently but also may hear words differently - based on their "phonetic filters;" I hear it as - or closer to - "Narbi."

[Sip]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

1. I would not discard those cases that easily, because, from a usage point of view, they are much less "small cases" than "Siamanto" because it's more likely to meet an Armenian bearing one of the above mentioned names.

Wow you are still stuck on this "Siamanto" hurdle? I thought I helped you to get over it. There is obviously a number of Armenian Siamantos running around (the male female thing is another issue as obviously typically they are all males. Now since you happen to be "female" , you tend not to accept this fact for some reason). If you have a doubt that Siamanto is an exclusive "Armenian" name, please feel free to look for non Armenian Siamantos (of course there is the shoe company but I am talking about humans). I would be VERY much interested to see if you can find ANY non Armenians who have ever been named Siamanto.

Jacks, Jims, and Brians etc as "Armenian" names? I think even you would agree that there are far more non Armenians with those names than Armenians.