Remember The First Holocaust

[Joseph]

Actually it does not appear he is a Turk after all. I just checked out a US political discussion forum he is an admin at and there is a thread concerning the Armenian Genocide. WEB is actually pushing for recognition of it as Genocide and an obvious Turk - Hector - is comming up with evry cheap denial argument you can imagine. No one in the forum really at all understands the history and fundemental issues beyond some basic points (where WEB at least seems to understand some basic things) - still I have no the energy to explain everything in all the detail it would take. If they really wanted to learn something they would actually read posts in the archives here and such - AND NOT JUST DISS SOMEONE WHO GIVES GOOD ADVICE CONCERNING AN EXTREMELY RELEVANT BOOK DIRECTLY ADDRESSING THE ISSUE RAISED - NOOOOOO - Instead Mr Know it all says he has no need to read or learn from others who have perhaps studied this issue a good deal more then he - yeah - you say you can make up your own mind WEB - well - thats nice - when you don;t know jack about this issue. You are another intelectual lightweight who for some unknonw reason actually thinks he knows something. LEARN TO READ IDIOT!

My apologies to W.E.B. DuBois for being suspicious. We have had our fair share of people who join our board who at first show seemingly good intentions only to suddenly explode on us with insults and negation. We have every reason to be wary, especially considering recent events in France and what happend to this forum as a direct result when the site was essentially hijacked by a mob of xxx Kurts (turkish ultra-nationalists).

Let's see what he/she has to say. In any event, W.E.B. DuBois brought up a very thorny issue; the disconnect between views of the Holocaust and other genocide.

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

Apology accepted. I deleted my last post as well. I never wanted to get into a pissing contest with you, Joseph. I actually rather liked your comments from a different thread I saw you in.

Well, maybe we can talk about this issue at another time.


Cheers,
WEB

[Joseph]

Apology accepted. I deleted my last post as well. I never wanted to get into a pissing contest with you, Joseph. I actually rather liked your comments from a different thread I saw you in.

Well, maybe we can talk about this issue at another time.


Cheers,
WEB

Thank you. I'd like that.

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

You're a really cool guy, man.

[1.5 million]

Regardless - I would advise WEB to not assume he knows as much about something that he obviously does not - and then reject well intentioned and on the mark advice - he certainly doe snot understand the issues surounding the AG to the point of telling others that they don't know what they are talking about or rejecting input out of hand. We get enough of that already in this forum. As far as i am concerned he owes an apology to the memebers of this forum for is insolence and should re-think how he enters new forums just in general.

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

Your conduct is really a shame, 1.5. Although you have been very rude to me without any real justification, I do understand that perhaps your impolite attitude has been exacerbated by some Turkish ultra-nationalists that I have heard about.

In any case, I did not come to this forum to be insulted or to insult. I reported your posts that called me names and I have nothing more to say to you.


WEB

[Gavur]

Mr. Dubois
May I ask if you have an agenda here other then exposing your site?
(btw I did visit it ,good luck to you) or were you drawn to us only because Hector The Turk's biased uncalled for propaganda on history at your site.

[1.5 million]

OK dipxxxx here are your answers

Hello, I am new to this forum. I wanted to say that I acknowledge that there was an Armenian genocide, but I think it goes too far to say that it was a "Holocaust." I mean, if we call it a Holocaust, then isn't everything a "Holocaust?"

I supose if we called spitting in the street a "Holocaust" then maybe you would have a point

The Holocaust was a systematic destruction of Jews based upon a widespread ideological racist theory about them.

And more - read and understand the history of why the Jews were vulnerable to be singled out in such a way at that time in a nation that had historically been far much less historically anti-semetic then any other in Europe. Just what was it about the socio-economic condition of the Jews just prior to this period and the uphevals within Germany - war, crumbling Empire, resurgent nationalism (and revolution based upon such), and ultimatly pursuing aggressive large scale war (that allowed inhumane acts to be pursued with impunity) - etc - that allowed for such a situation to unfold....and funny when one takes the time to examine these things for the jewsih situation in Germany prior to and during WWII and then does the same regarding the Armenian situation prior to and during WWI - guess what one might discover? I'll let you figure it out - since you are so loath to being told/taught things...

The genoicde against the Armenians had nothing like that kind of ideology,

BUZZZZZ - wrong

that widespread hate and propaganda,

BUZZZZZ - wrong

that kind of cold calculation,

BUZZZZ - wrong

not even that kind of intent or efficacy.

BUZZZ - very wrong....intent is documented and admitted...and efficacy...do you understand just how many Armenians perished in the Spring and Summer of 1915 alone...what percentage of Armenians in these areas were killed...no I supose you haven't much of a clue....

So, if you call this a Holocaust, then everything is a Holocuast. The Killing Fields of Cambodia, the Great Leap Forward, the massacres of the Tutsi's, the slaughter of the Chechens, the massacres committed against the Chinese by the Japanese, the present massacres against the non-Muslim Sudanese.

I supose all of these just might be considered as "holocausts" in a certain sense (particularly for those involved at the recieving/victim end...and who are you to say otherwise?)...as if that is the do all and end all word anyway. I have had discussions with prominant J ewish "Holocaust" experts who mourne the (common) use of the word/term for the Jewish experience in WWII - saying that it is not really quite as descriptive as "genocide' (it is rather a generic word) and that in any event "Shoa" is the proper name for what occured...And again I referenced Melson's book for a reason. He is a recognized figure in the field of comparative genocide studies and he defines "total domestic genocide" and details just why the Armenian and Jewish situations are so alike in circumstance and execution and so unique in their thoroughness of destruction of the people/nation/community...he also discusses issues regarding the common origins and circumstances of these genocides that is a must read for anyone who is truly and honestly interested in understanding...could that really be you WEB?

The list could go on longer than this I think. All of these would become "Holocausts" and the word will lose its meaning.

Would it now - and you are the expert? Just was is the meaning of the word? Go ahead - look it up...then look up the word "genocide" and tell us which is the better overall and accurate descriptor.

[bell-the-cat]

Mr. Dubois
May I ask if you have an agenda here other then exposing your site?

Looks like he is one of those "I can be an expert within a week" persons. Just look at the thread he is linking to. First post made on 27th October 2006 - "I don't know the history of Turkey very well". Less than a week later he deems himself wise enough to visit specialist sites on the subject and lecture.

Or are there other motives? He joined that forum on 10th July this year - and has been making posts there at an average of 19 a day. Either he is not a real person (like that supposed Iranian "oslonor" who was posting everywhere a couple of months ago and was obviously just some cia agent-provocateur) or he has too much free time on his hands and thinks he has the knowledge to comment on anything.

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

Mr. Dubois
May I ask if you have an agenda here other then exposing your site?
(btw I did visit it ,good luck to you) or were you drawn to us only because Hector The Turk's biased uncalled for propaganda on history at your site.

I was interested to get an Armenian perspective on some of Hector's comments. I had an interest in discussing this subject as well, but it seems that no one, except for Joseph, is interested in seriously discussing it.