Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[Tongue]

First of all, you must change to topic. ''General Archives'' could be better instead of ''Armenian Archives'' I looked them but unforunately they are not Armenian archives. So, try to be more scientific. And i didn't use a word ''Articles'' for Archives. I said ''document'' If you read, you can see. Of course i also added some articles and if you look to titles you can understand which one is Article which one is documents.

Well you see, Armenian archives means Archives related to the Armenian genocide, so no the title is just fine. Maybe you “said” documents, but you “posted” articles, so I deleted them, and yes I will continue to do so.

And fake documens... I told you before, just i want something from you; don't delete documents i sent. If you let i will show you which documents are fake. If you want we can talk about blue books, telegrams etc... ok?

So you want to post documents saying that our archives are fake? Why don’t you open a site and use all your anti-Armenian propaganda there? Of course I’ll delete them, who are you kidding? I’m so sick of this Turkish crap you know… Calling the archives fake is just so very disrespectful and is a shame. I don’t question our documents and I don’t respect people who do. So you think all the archives kept at the United State‘s national Archives and Records section are fake? This is the group number if you’re interested:

United States of America, National Archives and Records
Administration
Record Group 59, Records of the Department of State
Decimal File 867, Internal Affairs of Turkey
Decimal File 860J, Internal Affairs of Armenia

And which site is Armenian government's? Could you write again... And tell me please, is Armenian governtment made that web site? Or Armenian in diaspora? I want to see a web site address about Armenian Archives but concerning to Armenian government.

Why would the government have a website with the archives when there is already plenty of active Genocide Organizations websites with the same thing? I can give you the addresses if you’re interested, some of them got hacked by a group of Turkish hackers I believe last year (or maybe two years ago)!!!

http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/ This is web site address of Republic of Turkey State Archives. I want to see an address like that.
And i want to give their address: Başbakanlık Devlet Arşivleri Genel Müdürlüğü (General Manager)
İvedik Caddesi, No: 59, 06180
Yenimahalle-ANKARA.
Tel: (0312) 344 59 09 (Santral, 15 line)
Fax: (0312) 315 10 00
E-Mail: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>

Osmanlı Arşivi Daire Başkanlığı Adres: (Ottoman Archives Center)
Başbakanlık Devlet Arşivleri Genel Müdürlüğü Osmanlı Arşivi Daire Başkanlığı Ticarethane Sokak, No: 12, 34410 Sultanahmet-İSTANBUL.

Tel: (0212) 513 88 70-72 (Santral, 3 line)
(0212) 440 30 00 Pbx
Fax: (0212) 511 75 86 E-mail:
[email protected] <mailto: [email protected]>

Everybody can visit here and research about all archives.

Well the website is in Turkish, as I was expecting… The English part is under construction , so why are you making a big deal out of this site is what I want to know?

And about Oskanyan... I told many times and you still didn't say anything about it. Why Armenian Historians didn't continue and they left to meetings in Vienna? You are saying we are discuss for 90 years and i told you, You are discuss it with your self. You and your a friend discuss it. You must discuss it with other side... Why they started thiss meetings and left after? If you discuss is for 90 years why they started and why left? And now why they don't want to discuss again? You seems really believe your says but you can't proove them. It's so pity. You can't get anything like that, already you can't. Why they always escape like Mr. Oskanyan. He is also afraid from truths and reject to Turkey's offer. If you really believe yourself why you are afraid about discuss? Let's discuss it where you want. In UN, UNESCO, AGIT, International Laws or in Vienna Jok ok maybe you don't like to Vienna. Yes weather is a bit cold there... We can discuss in everywhere, everytime. ok? You don't believe Turkish historians but you can believe to UN or UNESCO. Can you? International laws is not ok for you?

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. We have proof of what happened, we don’t need to discuss this with Turkey since they damn well know what happened as well. This has become a political issue because of Turkish government’s denial and requires a political action. Armenian and Turkish historians can discuss this day and night and get nowhere since Turky doesn’t want to take responsibility for what happened in fear of maybe loosing lands and money. So this isn’t a historical issue, sure it took place, we got evidence to prove it. I’ve personally lost 3 family members in the genocide. A couple of years ago, we video taped my great grandmother right before she died and she talked about what happened to her and her family and people she knew. How her brothers were killed, how her mother helped her escape. She would get so emotional at some points that we would stop the taping and continue the next day. So don’t tell me “if you believe what you’re saying is true”. This has become a political issue because of Turkey’s denial and requires a political action.

So, everybody saying different numbers. Which one is true? Could you tell me what was Armenian populations in 1915? Why always numbers are changing? For example; The 1918 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica said that 600,000 Armenians had been killed; in its 1968 edition this was raised to 1,5 million. This is a big difference. Well, anyway, let's try to learn Armenian population and let's see some sources.

1.British Annual Register 1917 1.056.000 (1)
2.Patriarch Ormanyan 1.579.000 (2)
3.The Armenian historian Kevork Aslan
1,800,000 (3)
(In "Armenia and Armenians", Aslan states the Armenian population in Anatolia 920.000, in Clicia (Adana, Sis, Maras) 180.000, in the other Ottoman territories 700.000, total 1.800.000)
4.German Priest Johannes Lepsius 1.600.000 (4)
5.Cuinet 1.045.018 (5)
6.The French Yellow Book 1.475.011 (6)
7.The Armenian historian Basmajian 2.280.000 (7)
8.Patriarch Nerses Varjabedyan 1.150.000 (8)
Ottoman census statistics for 1893 1.001.465
* Ottoman census statistics for 1906 1.120.748
* Ottoman census statistics for 1914 1.221.850 (10)

The number 1.5 million isn’t exact, just like any other genocide or mass massacre it’s impossible to count the people one by one. It’s been said to be close to 1.5 million. You’re posting numbers of the population, I can post some too how’s that?

Turkish Genocide of Armenians (1914 - 1922)



ARMENIAN POPULATION



Districts & Vilayets of Western Armenia in Turkey 1914/1922
Erzerum: 215,000 /1,500
Van: 197,000 / 500
Kharbert: 204,000 / 35,000
Diabekir: 124,000 / 3,000
Bitlis 220,000 / 56,000
Sivas: 225,000 / 16,800

Other Armenian-populated Sites in Turkey
Western Anatolia: 371,800 / 27,000
Cilicia and Northern Syria: 309,000 / 70,000
European Turkey: 194,000 / 163,000
Trebizond District: 73,390 / 15,000

Total 2,133,190 / 387,800

[Tongue]

1-Our archives aren't there because of you, now that cracked me up! Don't give yourself too much credit.

2-"crap" is not a swearword lol!!!

3- We're not scared of the truth or like you put it "don't scare from truths", we WANT the truth to be heard, but Turkey is deaf.

4- Yes, I said 1.5 million and a person with the smallest brain would understand why... I can explain it to you, but I'm not sure you'll get it. It could be 1, 560,754 OR 1,480,736 OR 1,600,104 OR 1,500,001 But normal people usually just say 1.5 million...

7- You need to get a life... You spend too much time on Armenian sites, instead if you'e REALLY interested in knowing the truth (which I don't think you are), go get a book about the Armenian genocide and read it. A real book that would open your eyes, your government is hiding this from you, and you people aren't even questioning yourselves for a second? Why are all these people accusing us of a massacre, maybe something DID happen?!! I mean the entire world says that happened, many many eyewitnesses, go read American Ambassador to Ottoman Empire's book, it might open your eyes a bit. WAKE UP! Stop living in your three dimentional world, stop the denial, stop the crap. I'm sick of it, and I'm sick of you.

[imported_Fadix]

I like that, when some ignorants googling around find population figure and believe having made a discovery. More so, when figures for Asiatic Turkey, Ottoman Armenia, 6 Armenian Villeyets, 9 Armenian villayets, Anatolia and the Ottoman Empire are just thrown here and there without any clarification of what they represent. My favoured is the way "Patriarch Nerses Varjabedyan" numbers are completly misrepresented.

BTW, there never was any 1914 Census statistic, the 1914 published figures as Karpat admit in his work, were derived from the said 1905 census statistics conducted under Abdul Hamid regime. McCarthy mislead his readers by claiming there was one, because he probably knew that there was a deliberate intention to undercount the Armenians as Kâzım Kadri wrote: “During the reign of Abdul Hamid we lowered the population figures of the Armenians...” He as well add: “By the order of Abdul Hamid the number of the Armenians deliberately had been put in low figures.”

An example of such a deliberate undercounting. In the district of Mus(compromising Mus plain, Sassoun, and the counties of Mus), the Armenian official in charge of the census was Garabed Potigian, who presented the official figures as 225,000 Armenians and 55,000 Turks, upon the insistence of his Turkish superiors he was forced to reduce the Armenian population to 105,000 and increase the Turkish population to 95,000. Lynch himself report similar incidences: “Pursuing our way, we meet an Armenian priest—a young, broad-shouldered, open-faced man. He seems inclined to speak, so we ask him how many churches there may be in Mush(Mus). He answers, seven; but the commissary had said four. A soldier addresses him in Kurdish; the poor fellow turns pale, and remarks that he was mistaken in saying seven; there cannot be more than four ...Such are a few of our experiences during our short sojourn at Mush.”

Abdul Hamid has even considered in 1895 during the “census” period, the under evaluation presented to him of 900,000 as exaggeration... but apparently they have settled to the figures we know as the Ottoman census.

I'll probably expose our dear friends distortion in a few days.

[imported_Fadix]

Your title still wrong but it is not so important. Even i am glad to see somethings there and i am happy that this is because of me... I know what i posted and told you; you can understand which one is article which one is document, just look to titles. If you want i can post documents (from offical archives, including Ottoman, French, U.K, Armenian documents) again but you are saying '' I will continue to delete'' It's not fair, as i told you before: Don't scare from truths.

Sure, go ahead, do present French and Armenian documents. The last time I have discussed about that with a revisionist, he has used trash propagated in the newsgroups in the 90s which do not exist, such as the "voices of agonies" or a Goshnak article that never was published etc. Go ahead, let see what you do have.

I never say your all archives are fake. I said: I can proove some of the fake documents, telegrams even books. Did you hear to ''Blue Book'' ?

Go ahead, do "prove" them fake.

I don't need to open a web site because already historians, officials working about it. I told, you will see lots of things about it as soon. Already there are lots of web site, studies, books, documentary films about it. But this time all people will learn to truths.

The best you've got are the few vocal ITS and ARIT "academicians" like Justim McCarthy(Shaws student). I imagine after that, who might be the not so bests. Be our guest. Actualy, I'm as much guest as you here... I just found the site, and thought I should roast a revisionist. And you had to be that one.

Please don't be rude, be calm. It's not kind to use a word something ''crap''... If you really believe your truths just tell your reasons and proof them. So, i can't continue with your swearwords. Already i can't believe myself how i can continue because of you delete all my documents i sent and now with your swearword.

Let make a deal, as long as you don't spam the board, I'll do everything possible so that a mod. doesn't delete your trash. But you must promess me that you won't leave the board until I tell you you can do so.

I asked Armenian government's web site because this is offical. You or your friend can make a web site but people just looks this web site and write somethings. And theese are not important for scientific discuss. (For example this web site) If i learn Armenian Government's web site or mail address i could research as scientific. I knew you will not give any address when i asked. When i ask a questions i know what will be your answers, because of your answers is not surprise for me.

What information you want to know?

[quote]Yes, Turkey State Archives are Turkish (Will be ready english page as soon) but i wish to your click a document. Because there are also english explanations. If you click to a document you could reach to a document like that:

Atrocities perpetrated by the Armenians and Russians
in the neigborhoods of Van.
Armenians and Russians committed widespread atrocities in Van and its
surroundings and according to the testimony of Firdevs living in Abbasağa
quarter, the occupants murdered by torturing women, girls, aged muslims without
distinction, ripping the helly of a pregnant women and extracting the young from
the wombs to behead it, storming houses and killing the household after they had
inflicted them tortures for hours; stripping off the clothes of a small male baby aged
six and after cutting off his sexual parts they buchtered him, raping and violating
muslim women and those who took refuge in an american foundation,desecrating
cemeteries and exhuming buried corpses and profaning tombs of venerated persons
by filling in filthes.
28 Ş. 1334 (30. VI. 1916)

[
This document has been reverted, there is a quasi identical version, without the word "Armenian" in it. It reminds me the three list of documents for the victims of Van. Now, go the document no. 71, tell me who brought those criminals, and why is it not said to stop the massacres against the Armenians. I guess those in charge have forgotten to delete that entry which clearly show a governmental implication in the Armenian massacres.

You are saying; we don't need to discuss but unfortunately you can't answer your historians why joined to meetings in Vienna and why after left. Again you didn't answer, If historians (even with foreign historians) discuss it in UN, UNESCO or in International Laws not ok for you? If they will decide yes there is a ''Genocide'' Turkey can't say anything, because International Laws will decide. There is no anything for fear for loose land or money because of Lozan Treaty.

The thing has been discussed for years in the UN, after two commission which became a study, the Armenian cases has been included as a genocide. For Armenians to join such a meating, the Armenians should be the "other side." They are not, not more than the large majority of Western academics. If you think that anyone will accept a meating, when the other side leading figure is a clown by the name of Halacoglu.

Yes there happened very tragic events in this war for Armenians and also for Turkish. They killed to each others. You talked a tragic event of your grantmother. You can read another a tragic event in document i paste up. If you let me i can show others documents, photos. You can learn Armenians bandits how killed to 517.000 people. Could you tell me this is what kind a genocide?

I have demonstrated how this 518,000 was a forgery, by using the same documents series used to come up with that number. Check the list for Van, check the date, and the ID of the said document. for the same date, for the same place, Armenians have managed to kill, 8, 8,000 and 80,000... another series with the figure of 180,000(this one is not on "that" list though). The "."(siffer, of Ottoman Turkish zero), was added to the left(writen right to left), to the first orginal "8." This is a well documented BS, even Emin, doesn't provide half that number. Oh, I almost fogot, the clown by the name of Halacoglu, believe this forgery, since he has used the figures. And you really expect serious academicians to lose their times discussing with such clowns?

I didn't see an answer about Armenians who live in Istanbul and Izmir after my comparison. Beetween Berlin and Istanbul. You know there is no any event for Armenians in big cities like in Istanbul, Izmir. If it is genocide why they didn't kill them? Even in this time they don't need to pay tax. I hope you get it what i mean with this compare.

30,000 Armenians were evacuated from Istanbul, and there were preparation for the evacuation of Izmir Armenians, before Sanders threatned a German military intervention because those deportations in those cities were seriously interupting the war efforts. Refik himself has writen that he has learned that the entirity of the Armenians from the capital had to be deported. But before the plan was placed into execution, the Ottoman technicaly lost the war. As for Izmir, as soon as the Ottoman had the occasion, they've burned the Armenian and Greek quarter. The Armenians now represent less than 0.01% of Istanbul population, they've represented over 10% of the population before World War I. So, your trash are self-destructuve.

You are says '' The number 1.5 million isn’t exact'' but you told me before in 1915 1.5 Million Armenians died. (#6) If it is not exact why did you use this number? You pasted of Armenians population, total is: 2,133,190 / 387,800 and i want to know how did you find this number? What is your source? Why always numbers are changing? I can understand little differences, it's normal but there are big big differences. For example Patriarch Ormanyan says 1.579.000, Patriarch Nerses Varjabedyan 1.150.000, The Armenian historian Kevork Aslan
1,800,000 and you are saying 2,133,190. Look to differences. Everybody saying somethings but unfortunately there is no any document for proof about it. Ok, let's suppose there are real documents about it but i can't understand why this differences? Why everybody saying different numbers? Difference 983.190 between Patriarch Nerses Varjabedyan and with your say. Are they come from space? You really need to luck my friend...

I will cover the Armenian population in an upcoming post, and show you how ignorants like you copypast sources that they have no clue what they represent really.

The 1.5 million figure is a German figure, not Armenian, while Germany was Ottoman ally. Even using the Ottoman official statistics of 800,000 Armenians killed, one come up with over a million Armenian victims. But in due times, your points will be covered. But I just hope that by then, you don't just cowardly leave like other deniers generaly do when they're exposed.

Truly yours
Fadix.

[Tongue]

Those eyes have seen the Genocide

Remella Emlikian was born in 1905. She marked her 100th birthday on this February 25. She fled Musaler in 1915. She has 4 children and 21grandchildren and grand-grand children.

She lives in Yerevan at 8 First Street of Noragavit, Second Alley. The Turks are insisting that the Armenian Genocide issue should be left for the historians because facts proving the reality of the Genocide are needed. No documents are needed to reveal the truth. Remella Emlikian is a living proof; her eyes have seen the Genocide!

[imported_nemesis]

Can I ask you what kind of proof would satisfy you? Since witness accounts all fluent in Turkish, photos and memos by ambassadors and the fact that there are thousands of abandoned armenian churches all over anatolia is not sufficient for you..yes those people where not killed they still live in Turkey in peace and harmony....

can you tell me what you think the population of Armenians was pre 1915 and where it stands today?
can you tell me where those people are?

also in 1915 under those conditions forcing people to evacuate their homes and make them walk thousands of miles sometimes crossing desserts..you call it whatever you want ...
let's call it a government forcing their own nationals to leave their houses and make them walk thousands of miles during which most of those thousands perished

[abian]

The historical evidence of armenian genocide is irrefutable. There is no scholar in the world who denies that there was a tremendous loss of life by the Armenians. There is at least one US scholar, whose research is largely sponsored by the Turkish government, who claims that the loss of life was in a war rather than a massacre, but even he does not deny the fact of loss of life. Furthermore, Armenian genocide is not simply a theoretical exercise. Every family in the Armenian diaspora and many in Armenia itself pass the tragic family stories from generation to generation. My own great-grandmother told me a story about her family. The family was being driven like so much cattle, without food and water across the mountains into Iraq. Her father was feeling very ill and told the rest of the family to go on while he sat on the side of the road. He said he would catch-up when he gathered up some strength. They walked on. After half a day, he still did not catch up with them. My great-grandmother's older sister and one of the neighbors went back to look for him, but they too dissappeared. Many years later, we found my great aunt in Bulgaria. She told us that as they were looking for her father, they encountered a gang of Turkish criminals, who robbed them of whatever little they had and took the neighbor away. She took refuge in the rocks and later was taken by a passing Arab merchant to Syria, then Lebanon and from there boarded a Greek ship which took her to Bolgaria. There was a planned campaign of genocide and ethnic cleansing conducted by the Turkish government. My family was originally from suburbs of Istambul. They were scattered - some to Lebanon, others to Iraq, Bulgaria, so on.

[imported_nemesis]

Apology is a manifest of dignity and it's a lot better than 80 years of denial.
I haven't seen many curses on this site unless it was initiated by someone..also you need to realize that some of the sentences you're using are pretty hurtful and you do a great job at squeezing few of those into an otherwise balanced posting. You say I wish Ottomans had converted everybody by force..well they did a partially good job at that but how could an empire be built had they not needed the expertise of the people in respective areas.The ottoman Empire was built by nomadic people who did not have much expertise in administration, handcraft and commerce. Therefore it was easier to depend on the military force to conquer and govern by leaving local people go about their live as long as they paid their taxes..

[abian]

No one in Turkey refuses that armenians had been forced to move to another place and of course this was something planned and many died during this great walk. I wish there had never been such thing like that. .

Human,

Thank you for your admission to what you euphemistically call "forced to move to another place..." during which event "many died...". Of course forced dislocation of an ethnic group has another, more appropriate, name. It is called "ethnic cleansing" and it is a crime against humanity. If everyone in Turkey knows and acknowledges ethnic cleansing transgressions against Armenians, it is only reasonable that the Turkish government should also acknowledge that the crime of ethnic cleansing has been purpetrated. Since you also acknowledge that a large loss of Armenian lives had occurred during the purpetration of ethnic cleansing, we now have two of the elements of classical definition of genocide. The fact that genocide had been purpetrated against the Armenians of Turkey is historically irrefutable, personally known to have occurred, and even a simple logical examination of the events proves it.

[abian]

Unfortunately, for years have Ottoman Turko-Armenian Tragedy been falsely and one-sidedly promoted as Armenian Genocide by Armenians. It is upsetting to see that so many websites are allocated to hatred propaganda against Turkish people, while we are trying to create a bridge of understanding between East and West.
.

Well, Nevermindname, at least you are coherent albeit misinformed. Purpetration of multiple acts of genocide against the Armenian minority by the successive Turkish governments is an irrefutable fact. The Armenian genocide was not an Ottoman event, as many in Turkey apparently have been taught to believe. Although the last descendant of Othman, Abdul Hamid II, was responsible for genocidal acts against Phanariot Greeks and Armenians of his own in the 1890 to 1896 period, he was deposed in 1909. His deposers, the infamous Young Turks, took over the reins of the Turkish goverment and proceeded to unleash massacres of Armenians in 1915 to 1923 compared to which inept butchery of Abdul Hamid paled. It is puzzling to me why so many Turks perceive this simple historical fact as a personal affront. I would suggest to you that what's hurting Turks most in the eyes of the world is not that one hundred ten and ninety years ago its government committed several acts of genocide, but that for ninety years it has blatantly denied any transgression. This blanket of denial suggests immaturity as a democracy, and suggests that suppression of minorities and dissidents may take place again.