Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[Tongue]

i dont think that you have enough idea about what constitutional monarchy1 and constitutional monarchy-2 says in the ends of 18s...

enlighten us.. then tell us how it proves there was never a genocide.

PS. about Armenians being treated equally.. what do you say about all those Armenian massacres in the late 1800's by Sultan's regime?

[Joseph]

do not say that Ottoman Empire treated Armenian in bad ways...do not do this.do you think he prevented Armenian from doing what their religion tells...
here this is what they say:"there is the sound of mosque in one of our ear and the sound of the church in the other"
joseph i have never read halil berktay...i will read at once but i have heard of a primeminister of Armenia whose books were put under a ban because of his confessions...confessions about revolting against Ottomans in WW1.

The Armenians and other Christians were treated badly. It often depended on who was the Sultan and at a micro level, who was the local leader. When the Ottoman Empire started its most rapid decline (from 1878 onward) Armenians were scapegoated and made to suffer. The more they asked for rights, they more they were punished. I have no idea which prime minister of Armenian you are reffering to or whether any books were banned.

[Joseph]

it was for the treat of ottoman to Armenia...
i dont know how much you know about ww1 in the view of Turks, (the great struggle against many nations and the victory) but i see that you dont know about O.E. if you had you should have firstly learned about the tolerance of this empire to many nations in his land...
nobody can deny the tolerance of Ottoman E. to other nations in his lands...
i wrote in this point of view

As I have written before, the Ottoman Empire was tolerant up to a certain point and only at certain times but like any other empire, minorities could be killed at a whim or at least taxed, harrassed, beaten and ground into oblivion. Empires are inherently evil by nature and nothing ever good comes from them, I thought you would have learned that now. One of the by products of the Ottoman Empire was the genocide of it's Christian inhabitants. If the Ottoman Empire were so tolerant, you would not have so many former subject peoples talking about the past atrocities.

[Joseph]

no no tongue, there were many Armenians in the government and also i can say that many delegates of O.E. in Europa were also Armenian.
joseph wrote about triple taxes and the inequality but i dont think that you have enough idea about what constitutional monarchy1 and constitutional monarchy-2 says in the ends of 18s...

While I can appreciate the Christians did hold high positions at times in the Ottoman Empire, it was not due to enlightenment or Ottoman liberal ideals. They were ambassadors because they spoke foreign languages, knew their European counterparts and being Christian, this gave them more politcal understanding and mileage in Europe. Had there been no pressure (Tanzimat reforms and thereafter) from Europeans, there would have been no Armenians parliamentarians and I would speculate that there presence was purely symbolic (and the very nature of how they arrived at those positions.)
Regardless of how wealthly and connected an Armenians might have been, by law they were second class citizens. I'm not saying this to insult Turks and the practice itself was almost par for the course at those times ( you can use Russian treatment of the Jews as a similar example) but it must be remembered that Christians were dhimmis and had no rights to address Ottoman courts if there rights were violated by a Muslim, had restrictions on land ownership, paid onerous taxes, etc. The Armenian elite at the time was successful not because of Ottoman protection--- but in spite of it.

[imported_willy_wonka]

the two monarchies i have mentioned were done to provide the equality and to make the unity in the whole land of O.E.
this is the first day of me here and that's all for today.i will continue writing about 1915's and continue to learn and search...
although as it's seen the reason is not desirable, glad to meet you...
good bye for today...

[Joseph]

the two monarchies i have mentioned were done to provide the equality and to make the unity in the whole land of O.E.
this is the first day of me here and that's all for today.i will continue writing about 1915's and continue to learn and search...
although as it's seen the reason is not desirable, glad to meet you...
good bye for today...

Something for you to think about when you leave; there is the theoretical Ottoman Empire on paper and then there is the reality. Were there reforms (Tanzimat)? Yes. Were they enacted? NO. The reality of the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey is that they do not match what is theorized and I suspect that's why all the ethnic conflict and problems inherent in Anatolia, past and present have been overlooked, hidden, and selectively forgotten.

In theory the Ottoman Empire was a "mosaic". In reality, the smaller, most colorful and shiniest pieces of the "mosaic" were smashed to smithereens.

[imported_Hellektor]

What have we done to deserve this?

...why do you think Ottoman and Armenian lived in peace for centuries and then in a few years 1.500.000 Armenian killed if all those are really the truths??

This is a lie. A historical falsification. One of the standard parrot sentences uttered by Armenian Genocide deniers all the time. Fortunately I have a copy/paste response for this garbage that I paste for every brain damaged newcomer denier.

I recommend you read these excerpts from Aristakes Lastivertsi's accounts of the barbarities of your grandpaws, the ill day they first set hoof on Armenian territory about 9.5 centuries ago. He was there, he saw it with his own eyes.

For your information, check this link, where a bibliography of almost a thousand studies is represented that deal only with the genocide of 1894 - 1897 by Abdulhamid.

It was not war, but people died.

Here some samples of those "good" old days when the invader, uninvited Turks and indigenous Armenians lived "peacefully" like "brothers"

To avoid this danger that was permanently hanging above their heads, some reaya would clothe themselves differently but even in 1757 this didn’t escape the attention of the rulers. According to Vasif, “The Greek, Armenian and Jewish subjects had trespassed the Sharia with their clothing. Therefore, the Greek and Armenian patriarchs and the Jewish religious leaders were summoned to the head officer (Aga) in Istanbul to be reminded of the dress code commanded by the padishah, they were also warned if these obligations weren’t observed immediately the offenders would be severely punished (Tarihi Vasif, 1827)

The hard working Armenian reaya had to give everything they produced and some to the greedy Ottoman bandits without any protest, as recorded In Koçi Bey's "Risale" (report) presented to sultan Murad IV in 1631-1632:
"In the beginning 40 to 50 akce was imposed on each household as "avaris". Today 240 akce per capita as "cizye", another 300 per household as "avaris" and an akce for every sheep as sheep tax is being imposed. The Sipahi officers of six regiments have taken the collecting of the sultan's tax in their hands. They have violently seized the accounting books from the tax collectors. These are for sale in broad daylight, in front of everyone's eyes at the entrance of sultan Muhammed mosque, for the price of one and a half akce gulamiye. The buyers that wouldn't be satisfied with one kurus have started to take 700 to 800 akce for "cizye" and 30 to 40 akce for every sheep in the land of Islam. How can the "reaya" tolerate such oppression..."

"Devsirme", the collecting and conversion of Christians, mainly for janissary purposes, that was the order of the day from 14th to 19th centuries, expressed itself as legitimized oppression. According to Selaniki the Turkish annals writer: "The rulers of the time were ruthless in recruiting children... Like wolves attacking sheep, they mercilessly assaulted the reaya in the land. As a result they have robbed the rich reaya, while they have ravished the children of the poor and ruined their families"

Think of more than three centuries of wars between Ottoman and Safavids of Persia that invariably took place on Armenian soil.
An example: Ottoman historian Peçevi testifies “the army of the sultan set out to Erzerum and Kars via Dyarbekir in 1554. Upon arriving in Eastern Armenia, the “conquering” army razed all the prosperous villages to the ground. The frenzied “victorious” army annihilated cities and villages, houses and buildings to such degree that it horrified anybody who saw that. The Ottoman army enslaved young good looking boys, pretty girls and young women. There were no military tents without less than three of these boys and girls and the number of those tents where they took five or ten of them was countless”.

The pillages of the people whose land had become the battlefield of others went on the whole time. The kapikullari (Ottoman gendarmes = bandits) became the “rulers” of the land and mistreated the Armenians in every possible way they chose. Akdag, another Turkish historian writes, “According to the order issued by Yussuf Agha, his six Sipahi regiments had massacred the entire population of Ahiska around 1603”.

[imported_Hellektor]

but whyyy joseph please tell me why???
ottoman and armenian all leaved in peace in anatolia for hundreds of years...while ottomans were farmers(??? H.), the government make Armenian handwerker, teacher, doctor...

Ottomans were plunderers. They were nomadic cattle-herders who disdained work. They looked down upon people who worked. It was below them to work. A Turk was a soldier. The only "honorable" occupation for a Turk was that of being in the military. As opposed to kids everywhere who want to become doctors, engineers, scientists, pilots, novelists, directors, etc. when they grow up, the Ottoman offspring wished to be soldiers, soldiers, soldiers, soldiers, soldiers, soldiers, etc.

It was the Armenian reaya who did the farming, who fed your lazy stomachs for 500 years, who built your goddamn "empire" (scroll down the page), who run your economy, who introduced every concept of modernity in the Ottoman and got genocide for thank you.


P.S. The government didn't "make Armenian handwerker, teacher, doctor".
There was a saying in those black days that proved your tent-dwelling grandpaws couldn't keep two bricks standing one on top of the other:

Ermeni ustanin elinden geçmeyen caminin minaresi ayakta kalmaz, yikilir.

From ‘Ermeni Sorunu’ by T. Ates in ‘Yol’ No. 22-24, p.38, Duisburg, 1982.

[imported_Hellektor]

Sfw?

no no tongue, there were many Armenians in the government and also i can say that many delegates of O.E. in Europa were also Armenian.

So fffffff what?
How many influential Jews were there in Germany before WWII?
Does this mean the tragic events in WWII did not happen?
What kind of deluded "reasoning" is this?