Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[abian]

QUOTE=abian]Why am I quoting this? Two reasons:

2) To distinguish barbarous acts and massacres from genocide. In the index of the book I mention above, I looked for the word Armenia. Under Armenia, I chose the subsection called 'Armenian massacres', which were listed between pages 558-562. And from that section, I especially quoted the massacre which had cost most Armenian lives (Otherwise our Armenian forum mates would think that I was trying to deflate the number of casualties, huh?) In these indexed pages where anything about Armenians were mentioned, there was no mention of GENOCIDE, and there were mentions of BRUTAL ACTS OF OTTOMAN OFFICERS and MASSACRES.

.....

The following is the definition of genocide from the 1948 Genocide Convention. Let's see now: you've admitted that both in 1891-1895 timeframe and in 1915-1918 timeframe there were massacres of defenseless Armenians (and other Christian minorities) in Turkey. The massacres were premeditated, planned, executed in part by the Turkish army and police and high Turkish officials in conjuction with large scale deportation on foot and transport of entire Armenian populations throughout Turkey. Let's see what that means in terms of a genocide:

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any **comment: please note - no all - any** of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
**comment: yes, there was an intent to destroy, at least in part, an ethnical and religious group - check there**
(a) Killing members of the group;
**comment: yes, you've admitted - that occurred - check**
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
**comment: yes, rape, injuries all occurred and have been witnessed - check**
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
**comment: yes, marching across Turkey with no food or water, being subjected to depredations of soldiers and wild tribesmen would be those conditions - check**
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
**comment: the whole janissary thing went on for centuries**
Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;
**comment: see article above - genocide certainly occurred**
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
**comment: Certainly there was a conspiracy of the government per the sources listed in previous posts**
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
**Yes, there was by Abdul Hamid's Hamidaye and in 1915 criminal element released from Turkish jails**
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
**comment: yes, there certainly was an attempt, a successful one at that**
(e) Complicity in genocide.
**comment: no, Turks were directly involved, Germany was complicitous."

What occurred in Turkey fits the definition of genocide to a "t". QED. Genocide occurred beyond any doubt.

[abian]

QUOTE=abian] And from that section, I especially quoted the massacre which had cost most Armenian lives (Otherwise our Armenian forum mates would think that I was trying to deflate the number of casualties, huh?) ..

Well, now that you mention it, yes, in fact, once again you are being duplicitous, because on the previous page in Lord Kinross's book, pg. 559 and continuing on 560, he mentions, I quote:

"The conduct of these operations was placed in the hands of Shakir Pasha...Their objective... was the ruthless reduction, with a view to elimination, of the Armenian Christians, and the expropriation of their lands for the Moslem Turks... Each operation... followed a similar pattern. First into town there came the Turkish troops, for the purpose of massacre; then came Kurdish irregulars and tribesmen for the purpose of plunder. Finally came the holocaust, by fire and destruction, which spread, with the pursuit of fugitives... The total number of victims was somewhere between fifty and a hundred thousand... In each of the thirteen large towns the numbers of those dead ran well into four figures..."

So, you've once again prevaricated and supplied a quote more favorable to your point of view. Come on, man, this is not even sporting anymore.

[abian]

QUOTE=abian]
2) Abian is lying. Even the sources he mentions to support his claims are supporting what the Turks are trying to explain to the world. YES Ottomans committed shameful attrocities, YES several high ranking officers tolerated, even endorsed, the killing of thousands of Armenians in several Eastern Turkish cities.

3) I am lying. The pages which I quoted and the contents of the quotes are not real. I made them up in order to convince you that there is no such a thing as 'Armenian Genocide'

Abian and myself I talking about the same book,same author, same section, and same subject. Because he says "Those references you've quoted also contain rather directly applicable materials to the Armenian Genocide, although you choose not to quote the passages that are directly applicable. ". I say that I do choose to quote passages that are directly applicable, but the author does not relate it to genocide, he relates it to mistreatment, brutality, and massacres.

This is one clear case where either abian or myself are definitely and bluntly lying. Those who are interested feel free to do your best to find out who.....

So, Matteo, you have been disingenuous and prevaricating in your quotes. You've chosen to quote a passage less harmful to your argument from a book we both know, although it appears you haven't read your copy. The passages you quoted are right next to some others far more damaging to your case. So, what are we to conclude. The obvious conclusion is that the genocide did occur - the actions of Turkish government fit the legal definition of genocide exactly. The other obvious conclusion is that you truly don't want to believe that Turks committed such atrocities. You are willing to see past data and grasp at straws to retain pride of your nation and self-esteem. Why do all that? This all happened a long time ago. Turks got caught exercising medieval problem solving in the age of much improved communication and transportation when atrocities of the type are no longer tolerated. Sure, there were some crazies and criminals among the populace, but majority of the Turks didn't do the killing. Why should you feel shame? It is the inhuman government of those times, not just Ottoman, but also Republican goverment, who instigated, instituted and carried out these insane, criminal policies. It is your government now that is continuing to deny that these atrocities occurred. Such a government is a threat to anyone still residing in Turkey. Turkish government need to recognize the genocide, admit its culpability and thus bring this issue to a closure. Forget your personal shame and regret, that does neither me nor you any good. Call for the Turkish government to become open, truly democratic and make sure it does not even think about repeating any such monstrous acts again by making it admit that it has done such barbarity in the past. Never Again!!!

[abian]

2) To distinguish barbarous acts and massacres from genocide. In the index of the book I mention above, I looked for the word Armenia. Under Armenia, I chose the subsection called 'Armenian massacres', which were listed between pages 558-562. And from that section, I especially quoted the massacre which had cost most Armenian lives (Otherwise our Armenian forum mates would think that I was trying to deflate the number of casualties, huh?) In these indexed pages where anything about Armenians were mentioned, there was no mention of GENOCIDE, and there were mentions of BRUTAL ACTS OF OTTOMAN OFFICERS and MASSACRES.

So these facts leaves us with 3 options

1) Lord Kinross, who is mentioned by Abian, does not know the difference between massacres and genocide. He is undisputedly one of the best known historians of the 20th century (and definitely not the most Turcophile!), whose books are reference material in British, Greek, German, and Turkish high school curricula, but hey, he can't tell massacre from genocide. Although he is impartial and courageous to list and condemn Ottoman attrocities and brutalities against Armenians, he is partial and coward when it comes to name these 'events'.
..

What's this hang-up with the word genocide? There is a pattern with several apologists posting here. First it's: well, there were no massacres or anything, people were just moved and some died on the way. Then: well, OK, there were some people killed, but it was Kurds and bandits, no premeditation. Then after reading a few passages: OK, yes, there were massacres, it was planned, Turkish army participated - but it's not genocide - massacre - yes, brutal acts - yes, but no genocide. If it helps here's definition from Webster:

Main Entry: geno·cide
Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId
Function: noun
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

A deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial and cultural group has occurred, therefore genocide has occurred. The events profusely described in sources fit the 1948 legal definition of genocide, therefore genocide has occurred. QED.

In encyclopedia list of genocides you'll find the following under Turkey:

Turkey
(1914–1923) massacres by the Young Turk government Approximately 500,000–750,000 Assyrians in the Ottoman Empire were killed. The Turkish government still denies that there was any genocide.

Between 600,000 and 1.5 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire died. Armenians and most historians believe the deaths constituted genocide. The Turkish government denies allegations of genocide.

Between 300,000 and 600,000 Pontian Greeks in the Ottoman Empire were killed, and several hundred thousand others exiled. The Turkish government denies there was any genocide, instead blaming the wars with Greece which took place around the same time.

See also: Armenian Genocide, Assyrian Genocide and Pontian Greek Genocide.

[imported_Hellektor]

I can and will never

One thing I am trying hard to understand is why on earth Turks come to Armenian forums spewing the same impotent revisionist filth we have come to hear from them for ages. Invader instinct? I am asking you, tell me hand on heart, do you really believe you can change an Armenian’s conviction of the truth of the Genocide?
What do you want? Nobody has invited you to pour all your gall at Armenians, all the hatred and anger showing in your posts reveal a very disturbing truth about your incapability of evolution. How can one conclude otherwise reading pathological statements such as:

Get this right; I can and will never accept the so-called genocide claim against the Armenians

We “can and will never” forget and forgive such an atrocious crime. Its not about being able to or willing to accept, we know it was a genocide and although you admit it, you simply don’t like the word genocide!
Turks say: Yes, many people were relocated from their homes and many died it was not genocide.
Yes, we raped you and burned your villages but it was not genocide.
Yes, the state organized the deportations but it was not genocide.
Yes, the Kurds were incited by Turkish officials to attack, kill, plunder and rape the Armenians but it was not genocide…

Something is very wrong about the Turkish reasoning and it’s either a result of their brainwash by the system or it’s the Turkish nature…
I am astonished how Turks “can and will never” put themselves for a moment in the place of Armenians. This self-righteousness is so outrageous that there are no words to describe it.
For one moment be objective and see that you were INVADERS, you were NOT WELCOME, people LOATHED you from the moment your savage, barbaric, nomadic ancestors raided their towns and villages and razed everything to the ground and raped and killed mercilessly and that for a thousand years. Chingiz, Temur, Tughril, Holagu, Kubilay all the way to Abdulhamid, Talaat and Mustafa Kemal…
Blood thirsty mass murderers every one of them. Your sole “contribution” to civilization… Why is it so hard for you to get it inside your brains that you are occupiers? People were suffering under the Ottoman yoke. They all wanted to break free and all of them: Greeks, Hungarians, Romanians, Arabs, etc. revolted against you and they all got their freedom except the Armenians.
What is this primordial Turkish hatred of Armenians that does not tolerate their JUST and RIGHTFUL demands for freedom from your BARBARIC TYRANNY?
Is it not because the Armenians were the most industrious of them all and built your miserable “empire” from shipyards to manufacture of ammunition, from architecture to arts, theater, music, opera… all pioneered and done by Armenians? Yet they were docile: milleti sediqeh. They shouldn’t have demanded freedom, although their culture was and still is, despite a thousand years of persecution, infinitely higher than your infinitely inferior customs.
Why are you like that? At least try to explain to us why you think you should enslave us, and our homeland forever and we shouldn’t ever have complained. It’s unbelievable that a member of the homo-sapiens family should think that way, unless you belong to a different species of two legged creatures.

I say that the thing Armenians did was terrorism.

NO, it was a struggle for freedom from your savage tyranny.
By analogy I would like to bring the example of Palestinians to your attention.
Although Israel is in no way comparable to the Ottoman tyranny, and although Jews have lived in the region in the distant past (I am not taking sides, just remember that 1.Israel does not recognize the Armenian Genocide, 2.has strong ties with Turkey, 3.the Jewish lobby does everything to sabotage the passing of a resolution on the Genocide in the US congress and most important of all 4.the Zionists helped the formation of pan-Turkism and were collaborators with the Young Turks).
Now, do you call the Palestinian uprising terrorism?
And since we’re here:

Now you mention also 300.000 Greeks which were killed by Turks. What about Turks? Don't you realize that at least 500.000 (I don't even mention higher numbers quoted by pro-Turkish authors) by armed Greek and Armenian gangs. Do you ever mention that in any of your postings. When I find Armenian authors reputation dubious, I discriminate

massive Armenian revolts aimed at creating an ethnically homogenous Armenian nation in eastern Anatolia led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of both Turks and Armenians. For some reason, Turkish victims of this tragedy that amount to 523.000 are forgotten by the claimers. Instead, only Armenian casualties with highly inflated figures, such as 1.5 million are mentioned.

Several million Palestinians and several million Jews are living in the region.
After four years or so of resistance, and having received aid and arms from several Islamic and non-Islamic countries, and despite the fact that the Palestinian militant organizations are much better trained and enjoy much wider support than the Armenian freedom fighters in the early 20th century, they have killed what, some 800 or so Jews IN FOUR YEARS (I don’t have the official numbers, but give the numbers game a break for a second!).
Do you HONESTLY, SINCERELY and HAND ON HEART believe that the Armenian rebels COULD HAVE killed five hundred phuking thousand and some Turks in less than a year? Who are you trying to fool? You sure not fooling us.
In fact Armenians had been subdued for such a long time that the rebels had to use violence to get financial support from the rich.

you only deal with Armenian casualties and act as if not a single innocent Turk was killed by Armenian mobs, you don't discriminate! Nice justice.

What? You want me to cry? What innocent Turks? The uprising in Sassoon, Zeitoun, Van and Moussa dag were acts of SELF DEFENCE. Why do you demand that all Armenians submit their necks to their butchers? “you don't discriminate! Nice justice.”
I’ll tell you why. You could not afford to allow Armenians regain their homeland because you would be cut off from your barbaric Mongolo-Tatar, Kipchak-Kutugur-Gokturk kin, so you had to eliminate the thorn in your Mongol eye, the Armenians. This is called Pan-Turkism.

While I regret that the massacres took place in the first place. They did not come out of the blue for no reason. The Armenians lived happily under the Ottoman rule for hundreds of years. Why did the Ottomans "all of a sudden" decided the commit the massacres?

About this "happily ever after" crap I have commented in another post and PLEASE, you fool NO ONE, not even yourselves. To save time I paste the comments below:
In his "Risale" (report) presented to sultan Murad IV in 1631-1632, among others Koçi Bey writes:

"In the beginning 40 to 50 akce was imposed on each household as "avaris". Today 240 akce per capita as "cizye", another 300 per household as "avaris" and an akce for every sheep as sheep tax is being imposed...How can the "raya" tolerate such oppression..."

"Devsirme", the collecting and conversion of Christians, mainly for janissary purposes, that went on from 15th to 17th centuries, expressed itself as legitimized oppression. According to Selaniki the Turkish annals writer: "The rulers of the time were ruthless in recruiting children... Like wolves attacking sheep, they mercilessly assaulted the "raya" in the land."

It doesn't take a genious to see the true past. You just need to leave the ideas that you've been brainwashed for years and think straight! Trust me you will see it!

In psychiatric jargon this is called PROJECTION. No further comment needed. And by the way, how can I trust you when up to this very day you carry on the same genocidal acts towards my people?
Examples of the same revisionist puke we are so sick of taking ad nauseam:

While the moving of Armenians was a planned action to protect Anatolia, the loss of lives did not take place as a result of a systematic killings of Armenians...

This is really funny. As the other Turk mentioned “It doesn't take a genious” to figure this one out:

Let's see another subject. In 1915 What happened to Armenians in living in big cities like Istanbul, Izmir. (They are still living there) Ottomans are killed them? If it is genocide why they didn't kill them in 1915?

Uncivilized doesn’t mean stupid. Turks were diabolically cunning and they planned the whole thing and gave it the look of “innocent” deportation of ALL Armenians. Unlike Hitler who was stupid and killed the jews and others in front of the eyes of the world, Turks were cautious and did not want all the foreigners to see the killings. While they had already recruited all the young men and had treacherously executed them, there was no need for the deportations. All of us know that all the hundreds of thousands of Armenians who were driven on foot to roast in the Syrian desert, were women, children and elderly. How else can you account for the fact that they did not rebel against thier blood thirsty butchers. You say ALL ARMENIANS SIDED WITH THE RUSSIANS SO THEY HAD TO BE DEPORTED. How, pray tell, all these armed to their teeth Armenian “terrorists” walked like sheep to their deaths and did not rebel…

Last year started meetings with Turkish and Armenian historians in Vienna. But Armenian historians didn't continue meetings and left.

The Armenian Genocide is an established fact and not open to discussion. If you don’t get it after all I have said above and after all that is written and said, then you “can and will never” get it, so leave the Armenian forums and leave us the phuk alone for a change.

[Hovik]

Is this your understanding of freedom of speech and expression of opinion?

No, we really should follow Turkeys example with their national hero Orhan Pamuk. Burning books... Sounds like Nazi Germany... Now THAT is freedom of speech and expression of opinion - Turkish style.

[matteo]

side effects of hatred

Below there is part of an article by Ahmet Altan, which was added to the forum by Hovik:

I understand that the word "genocide" has a damningly critical meaning, based on the relentless insistence of the Armenians' "Accept the Genocide" argument, or the Turks' "No, it was not a genocide" counterargument, even though the Turks accept the death of hundreds of thousands of Armenians.

Hovik, I endorse almost everything which Ahmet Altan wrote in the article. Simple proof is my previous postings. But obviously you don't endorse what he writes. You say it is not enough if Turks admit and regret the deaths of Armenians.

So why do you post this article?

Because Ahmet Altan thinks that there was a genocide? No. He says that Armenians are obsessed with that word.

Because Ahmet Altan is the only Turk who has symphaty for Armenian sufferings? No. Many Turkish people in this forum, including myself, have the same position. (But you want us to get the 'phuk out of the forum'!)

Because Ahmet Altan is a typical Turkish denialist? No. Otherwise Zoryan Institute would'nt bother to have it translated at the first place.

Why then? Because your hatred caused some chronic psychological disorder & imbalance? I believe so.

[imported_Hellektor]

If you only could understand...

Hellektor, the fact that Turks are here on this forum and expressing their views is bothering you, isn't it?

Oh dear, oh dear...
Nope! You got that wrong. In another post I have explained that the reason I'm being sarcastic is that in no way you seem to present things from a different angle. All the Turks who deny the genocide, regurgitate the very same things we have become used to hearing all the time. If I find the time I'd like to start a thread, listing the clichés you repeat ad nauseam in this regard. My former post was an attempt in this direction though it's not complete.
What I don't want to hear is precisely these clichés, otherwise you come and say what you THINK. See, in my posts I always bring the subject of the centuries long Ottoman tyranny and this is really important for me, but you always avoid this topic. This is what I mean by presenting the subject in different lights. That's why I usually don't bring quotations of books that often. This is my approach. I THINK about the matter and present my conclusions. If you pay attention to my posts, I don't consider the Genocide of 1915 the starting point and the end of the suffering your predecessors brought unto us from day one of the invasion.
Probably (in the name of decency do not abuse what I'm going to say here), probably, the focus of the Armenians on the Genocide of 1915 alone has worked a bit to their detriment. It was just one in the line of countless massacres that the Turks perpetrated against the Armenians and not only. You must someday come to terms with the fact that for some reason, most probably the fact that your ancestors missed the train of the evolutionary process somewhere down the line, the Turks did not acquire all the human attributes other societies did, and that is the main cause of their unfathomable brutality in history, and this is known to all mankind. Believe me, I'm not being sarcastic here. I do believe this can change. I do believe you are human after all. Only, reading your regurgitated revisionist ideas dictated by your fascist system, worries me that this may take some time to happen.
I also would like to dedicate a thread, time permitting, to list these attributes we believe are missing (sometimes partly) from the Turkish psyche.
Here are some examples (please don't be offended if you have the attribute of being offended):
shame, modesty, remorse, guilt, sympathy, decency, honesty, sincerity, truthfulness, objectivity, respect, self-control, the ability to contain one's rage, one's base desires, the understanding of someone else's pain, the ability to think freely, the guts to accept responsibility for the deeds of one's predecessors in order to shake off the guilt and go on with one's life, etc.
I am not being sarcastic; I just reveal to you what comes to my mind when I hear the word Turk.
Don't you want this to change? Don't you think by repeating the cheap clichés you've been brainwashed with, only makes things worse and confirms what I believe?
Let me tell you something, whenever I hear the names of people like Taner Akçam, Orhan Pamuk, Raghib Zarakoglu and his Belgeh Publishing, Yelda, Sholeh Perinçek, Dogan Özgüden and his http://www.info-turk.be, Fatma Geoçek, Kemal Yalçen (and fortunately the list is growing all the time) etc., it makes me feel differently about the word Turk, and I really would like to see the day when I hear someone say "barbaric Turk", I'll be the first to be embarrassed.
Don't you want to see such a day as well? Or do you even care? Maybe you "can and will never" want to be considered civilized and can not care less what we think about you. This is what's bothering me not "the fact that Turks are here on this forum and expressing their views".

Whether you like it or not is your problem, not mine.

In the light of what I just said, do you see what I mean reading the above statement of yours?

It's funny you used the word "conviction".

It may be funny to you but to me it's far less funny (funny in a grotesque manner though), than your clichés. My "unshakable belief" comes from the awareness of the existence of mountains of facts, tens of thousands of pages of documents, thousands of video taped survivor accounts, eyewitness accounts, photos, footage, etc. concerning the Genocide of 1915, and the whole information stored in our collective consciousness throughout centuries, which is reflected in our songs, dances, paintings, poems, novels, historic records, etc. If only you could (or cared to) see, hear, read all this...
As I mentioned in another post, Raffi, the founder of modern Armenian novel genre who died in 1888, before the Hamidian genocide took place and before the Dashnaktsoutioun party was founded, has a lot to tell us about the crimes the Kurds and the Turks were perpetrating against Armenians.
Examining all the facts of the subject will lead to no other conclusion and this is my "understanding of freedom of speech and expression of opinion".

[imported_Hellektor]

Paranoia or wishful thinking?

Turks, were killed too. It is a historical fact (all books dealing with the Armenian issue confirm it, numbers range between 250.000 to 1 million, so make a pick!) Party hard, be merry, Turkish blood was spilled too!

Of course there were Turkish casualties as well. More Germans died in World War II than Jews, but they are not considered as victims of genocide. If you really believe that up to a million Turks were killed by Armenians then you really must be delusional. And as I have mentioned in my previous post, it's Turks who have to aqcuire human attributes such as the ability to understand someone else's pain in order not to "Party hard, be merry," seeing others suffer.

You know that beginning with 1876, Armenians and all other minorities started to have wide ranging freedoms, including the right to own and carrty guns. (You can look it up in every pro Turkish and pro Armenian book, regardless) Moreover, Russia, since 1774, had the officially recognized right to protect, oversee, and assist Orthodox Christian subjects of the Ottoman Empire. After 1876, this right also extended to providing arms to Armenian gangs. (check out Lord Kinross' book for example!)

No, I know that European powers demanded that the Ottomans carry out reforms concerning the Armenians who were being endlessly harassed by the bandits, tacitly condoned by the state, bending under taxes sometimes 200% their income, suffering from a total disregard of justice when an Armenian presented a case to a judge, etc. and that for centuries. The reforms remained on paper and no "wide ranging freedoms" were ever granted. And "the right to own and carrty guns" for Armenians? "Give me a break!"

Looking back to the perio 1876-1917, who had better weapons & military technology: Ottomans or Russians? Who could arm & train their soldiers and attached militia forces? Who could arm & train Armenians living in Russian ruled territory and send them to Ottoman territories to cause havoc & bloodshed? Obviously Russians.

If you really believe that ALL Armenians were Russian spies then you are paranoid to the max. The Armenians were so subdued throughout centuries that the majority could not even imagine rebellion, otherwise there WUOLD NEVER HAVE BEEN A GENOCIDE! Just think about it. I always ask you this in my posts but you never seem to care to think about it. So, once again:
How, pray tell, all these armed to their teeth Armenian “terrorists” walked like sheep to roast in the desert and did not rebel?

About the Turkish presence in the forum, it is neither our nor your fault. It is the administrators and moderators who don't kick or ban us so far.

I have dealt with this issue in the previous post as well. In fact the whole message tries to clarify what I think of "the Turkish presence in the forum".

Maybe also we should call your ancestors 'barbarians, savages, cowards, or backstabbers' like you do? Will this help us to get kicked out? I don't know. So why don't you ask and complain to them?

You may call our ancestors whatever you wish. I don't think you know (or care to know) anything about them. If you only had the slightest idea who Mashtots, Narekatsi, Khorenatsi, Heratsi, David Anhaght, Nersess Shnorhali, Sayad Nova... (the list is endless) were and compared them to your ancestors such as Chingiz, Temur, Tughril, Holagu, Kubilay...Abdulhamid, Talaat and Mustafa Kemal, known the world around as the most barbaric, savage, blood thirsty, mass murdering creatures ever existed, you wouldn't DARE call my ancestors "savages, cowards, or backstabbers".
By the way, I never said coward. The fact the Turks in 1915, prior to driving women, children and elderly to their deaths, recruited all the young men and executed them treacherously, the manner they carried out the Sumgait pogroms http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...read.php?t=263 and the savage and premeditated mutilation of Gurgen Markarian while sleeping by Ramil Safarov and the glorification of this coward beast as a national hero of the mini Ottoman "empire", speak far thicker volumes about the real chickens than your thin show of "quotation" knowledge.

[imported_Hellektor]

All in due time

I wrote back to Hellektor (he was claiming that Turks on this forum were insulting Armenians). I showed him that nowhere in this forum a Turk insulted Armenians, but on many postings, Armenians insult Turks. HE DOES NOT RESPOND

Woooo...woooo... Hold your Ottoman horses man! I was in the forum less than 24 hours ago! I must tell you I may not find the time to reply as often as I do now but it doesn't mean I won't. Unlike you, I quote almost all your replies and deal with them sentence by sentence. I only hope it's just impatience and no dark intentions.
And I didn't say Turks in the forum insult Armenians I don't know what gave you that idea. I say you pour your anger without wanting to see things from our point of view for a second. For instance, I have asked many times the reason for your self-righteousness but you never deal with this question "THERE IS NO RESPONSE". I mean, what causes you to think that the Turks are our masters and we of all people should have remained your docile slaves in our own homeland?
I know however, that I have said calling Armenia "Eastern Anatolia" is seriously offending because it's a post-Genocide invention that along with the systematic destruction of our monuments tries hopelessly to erase any evidence of the presence of the indigenous people of Armenia. To support this I include links to these two map sections one done by a German, Kiepert in 1872 and the other by a Frenchman called Philippe de la Rue in 1652. You can see clearly that the bogus insolent phrase "Eastern Anatolia", as well as the bogus "country" north of the Arax River that steals its name from a region in northwest Iran are nowhere to be found. I'll keep sending maps and pictures in the future so come back later if you like.

Philippe de La Rue: Asia Minor 1652 (Section)

Kiepert: Asian Turkey 1872 (Section)

Note that in the later map Kurdistan has appeared in Armenian territory. And if you don't know the historic fact for this change, then it's so that the Ottomans started to settle the Kurds into Armenian land in order to exterminate them. This is what I mean with the Genocide having started much earlier than 1915. These historic maps are just one piece of the mountain of "undeniable evidence" that you simply cannot tolerate. I'm sure you would either keep silent or find a ridiculous "reason" to refute this undeniable historic fact.

Whenever Turks present facts which are supported with undeniable evidence, THERE IS NO RESPONSE.

What facts have you ever presented?
You don't even read my messages properly to see how much "undeniable evidence" I present that pulverizes your repetitive revisionist garbage. I ask you dozens of questions but you only pick up what suits you and twist what I say, the same way you twist history. "Read my postings carefully" because I cannot spend hours typing the same things all over.

This does not match the Armenians' imaginary Turk who is biased, ignorant, intolerant, and dishonest. Sorry, I am not that way, and neither the Turks who post on this forum.

Imaginary? YOU KILLED MY PEOPLE AND ARE OCCUPYING MY COUNTRY! How hard is it to get that into your heads?

My suggestion is to ban all of us and then log in yourselves with fake Turkish identities!
Then you can create your own despicable Turkish character, so you can insult him as you please!

We are not like you! Haven't you got it yet? You are in the wrong and no matter how much evidence we present you "can and will never" be capable to see the truth. And I'm being sarcastic because of your replies. You only read my cynical remarks but you don't pay attention that they are in response to your insinuations. We are above creating our own despicable Turkish character and come and play roles. Remember you created that character and it's such a shame you don't want to pull your heads out of the sand and shake off this negativity and get on with your lives.

Hellektor,

Firstly, Here are some more Armenian heroes for your crooked admiration:

Gourgen Yanikian
Alexander Yenikomechian
Suzy Mahseredjian
Mardiros Jamgotchian
Pierre Gulumian
Levon Ekmekjian
Kirkor Levonian
Raffi Elbekian
Varadjian Garbidjian

You may now praise and worship these Armenian heroes who, for the rest of the world, are criminals belonging to the ASALA terrorist group.

You see how prejudiced and ignorant you are? You know nothing about me or my heroes. Let me tell you something. I don't care if you believe me or not but this is the deal:
ASALA can go to hell. It's impossible to explain the whole journey of the formation of my Armenian identity in a few sentences. Just take it from me as a fact that ASALA are traitors and we Armenians consider them as anti-Dashnak Turkish agents. The Orly thing aimed nothing but to disgrace the Armenian people. Just use your brain. Would Armenians do such a thing in France of all countries? If your answer is yes then I think you're nuts!
On the other hand there was a different group, Raffi Elbekian being one of it's members and indeed a hero, who out of desperation committed assassinations of several Turkish politicians to get the attention of the heartless world to our unspeakable suffering in the hands of your government. I personally don't like this sort of acts and am happy it ended soon.
Here may I call your attention to my "Turkish-Armenian / Israel Palestinian analogy" that you didn't like/get/care to get that much. My first question was this and you unintentionally/slyly/cunningly avoided it:
"Now, do you call the Palestinian uprising terrorism?"
In Islamic countries (don't get this the wrong way) they support the suicide bombings. In Iran they call them "Martyrdom Seeking Acts".
Now put your hand on your heart and tell me that killing and maiming hundreds of innocent kids, women and men anywhere, is not a little bit more unjust than assassinating a dozen or so diplomats representing the Turkish genocidal and denialist government? Again I in no way support any such acts by Muslim or non-Muslim so have the decency not to misquote what I say here. And please don't tell me "Israeli intelligence" this and "Israeli intelligence" that.

If you confuse utopist violent thugs like Abdulhamid & Talat with Mustafa Kemal, (who openly condemned the treatment of Armenians by the Union of Progress leaders), there is no room for dialogue.

I love you for calling Abdulhamid & Talat "utopist violent thugs", but please be informed that although Kemal at first "condemned the treatment of Armenians by the Union of Progress leaders" (man, it was genocide, what does it take for you to accept this?), he later continued to gallop along their genocidal path and founded your country on lies and the blood and bones of the victims.
Here are some samples of the chronology of the Genocide. If you like I'll provide the link (if you haven’t seen this web yet that is), but since it's an Armenian website then everything on it should be "biased" and "false".

"9/9/1922 The advance guard of the Turkish Army enters Smyrna and pillages Armenian and Greek homes and stores. Armenians and Greeks are killed in the thousands. Religious institutions, including the Armenian Prelacy in Smyrna, are ransacked.

9/13/1922 The burning of Smyrna by the Turks. Within 24 hours, 50,000 houses, 24 churches, 28 schools, 5 consulates, 7 clubs, 5 banks, and an unknown number of stores and warehouses are destroyed.

7/24/1923 Treaty of Lausanne signed by Turkey and the Allies excludes all mention of Armenia or the Armenians. The new Turkish Nationalist state is extended international recognition. The Ottoman Empire goes out of existence."

Secondly, read my postings carefully. I did not insult your ancestors, I only pointed to insults which are used by Armenians against Turks in this forum. Of course you and I can excange any slurs against each other and one's ancestors, but this will not change the reality. If you have 5 extra minutes, just check the postings by your Armenian brethren and see who is insulting who.

Your ancestors did some really nasty things. This is known to all mankind and nothing will "change the reality". However there's always the possibility to improve, so grab the opportunity, open your eyes and let your blackened heart be cleansed.