Your Greek Friends Stand Beside You!

[Evropeos]

First of all i cant read Turkish.Second the Turkish Cypriots are claiming 25.000 to 30.000 dead up to 74.There is absolutely no way i am to believe the Greek propaganda that we did not commit attrocities on Cyprus.The Greek side has been the most vicious on the Island.Sorry to say that.We used our majority and the Greeks had it comming.Even though i hate the division to stand on the Island but we have to admit that Turkey's invasion has helped to establish the peace in Cyprus, prooving that the Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots can not live together in peace...mainly due to the Greek Cypriot's aspirations to be united with Greece back in the 60's-70's.

Plus i dont know what Turkey is claiming.I am saying what the pseudo-state is claiming.

Check what they are claiming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q18HZVozrgk

Panos, forget about what the Greeks and the pseudo-state claims.There are much better sources than those you gave.I will give you two sources, one from BBC and the other from United Nations:

Some 1,500 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish Cypriots are officially registered as missing on Cyprus, never seen since fighting broke out between the two communities in the 1960s.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6166560.stm

According to UN data, over 1,400 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish Cypriots are listed as missing. Some 270 remains have been unearthed on both sides of the ceasefire line following an agreement last year.

http://www.un.org/News/ossg/hilites/...asp?HighID=874

[1.5 million]

It is highly unlikely that the Greeks burned Smyrna (even if perhaps they may have wanted to and they certainly burned many smaller towns) - but the Turks didn't give them the chance. There is a great deal of evidence to show that the greeks (army) were well gone from the city prior to the fires being started and there is a great deal of direct observation of Turkish troops/irregulars setting fires in the Armenian and Greek quarters (primarily the former) and these getting out of control due to high winds. I cannot accept even a Greek claim to have set such.

I am also quite dubious of the 30,000 Turkish Cypriots killed even if I again do understand how they were terrorized by the right wing Greeks.

[imported_Strabo]

Second the Turkish Cypriots are claiming 25.000 to 30.000 dead up to 74.

I think it was Denktas who once said that there were 70,000 Turkish "martyrs" in Cyprus. And you know what ? He is correct in a sneaky way. That's how many Turkish invaders were killed back in the invasion of 1570-1571. But everyday Turks probably believe these "martyrs" were killed by EOKA in modern day Cyprus. It's actually disturbing that Turks still believe these wildy inflated numbers despite internet access and other exposures to information in the outside world.

Denktas is a lawyer, by the way. He knows how stupid people can be.

[imported_Strabo]

Check what they are claiming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q18HZVozrgk

Lol! They forgot to mention how the Turks unleashed a frenzied slaughter of 20,000 Nicosians AFTER the siege ended. Let that be a lesson to you Panos. Turkish historical narrative is full of OMMISSIONS.

Did they mention in 1954, before any violence, the Greeks asked the UN to allow a referendum in Cyprus ? (You know, like they had in Quebec and Montenegro and other civilised places on Earth)

The Turks said NO to a referendum.

So if something is not decided by votes, what is the alternative ?

[Panos26]

Panos, forget about what the Greeks and the pseudo-state claims.There are much better sources than those you gave.I will give you two sources, one from BBC and the other from United Nations:

You are talking about the measing.I am talking about the dead.

[Panos26]

Lol! They forgot to mention how the Turks unleashed a frenzied slaughter of 20,000 Nicosians AFTER the siege ended. Let that be a lesson to you Panos. Turkish historical narrative is full of OMMISSIONS.

Did they mention in 1954, before any violence, the Greeks asked the UN to allow a referendum in Cyprus ? (You know, like they had in Quebec and Montenegro and other civilised places on Earth)

The Turks said NO to a referendum.

So if something is not decided by votes, what is the alternative ?

But you are ommissing the purpuse of the referendum,which was the union of Cyprus with Greece.

None the less my stand is the same.The Greeks were and are by far those who started and created the problem bsc they used their overwhelming majority.The turks were only a weak minority which we took advantage.So yes,what did the Greeks expect?Turkey to watch?Plus after the invasion we have peace at last...


The Greeks have been true animals against the turks for 20 years before Turkey invaded...No way a level-headed person will believe that an 18% minority managed to harm the overwhelming majority of 82% of Greeks on Cyprus.That is only for kids to believe.We were and are responsible for a mass planned extinction of the Turks on Cyprus that didnt work...

[Panos26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Smyrna

Gavur here is what neutral sources claim.No one saying the Turks burnt it or Greeks.There is propaganda from both sides.One accusing the other.

Oral tradition also in Turkey has it that the Greeks burnt it.I believe that as well.

[Gavur]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Smyrna


Gavur here is what neutral sources claim.No one saying the Turks burnt it or Greeks.There is propaganda from both sides.One accusing the other.

Oral tradition also in Turkey has it that the Greeks burnt it.I believe that as well.

Panos all that link seem to do is state some of the witnesess and try to discredit them at the same time does not provide any documents for an (rightfully)opposing argument.
says citation needed over and over again...

[Panos26]

Panos all that link seem to do is state some of the witnesess and try to discredit them at the same time does not provide any documents for an (rightfully)opposing argument.
says citation needed over and over again...

The text of the british report is there gavour.Any way my opinion is that we initiated the fire the turks finished every thing off in the Armenian suburbs

[Joseph]

http://www.helleniccomserve.com/dobkinreview.html

Marjorie Housepian Dobkin, Smyrna 1922: The Destruction of a City
Newmark Press, New York (1988), Softcover, 275 pp
ISBN: 0-9667451-0-8
By Christos and Mary Papoutsy


At the beginning of a new millennium, at a time when populations worldwide hope for peace, prosperity, and understanding, Smyrna 1922: The Destruction of a City, serves as a reminder that the mistakes and tragedies of history continue to affect us. Genocide and ethnic cleansing are not obscure academic topics, fit only for the discussion tables of scholarly symposia or conferences. They are timely. They are relevant and meaningful for all of us, since there is clear evidence that these crimes still take place today. We have only to watch the nightly news to read about the ongoing strife in the Balkans, the expansion of the conflict from Kossovo to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. We have only to click the button on an Internet site that is broadcasting current Greek news to read the updates about the decades-old Cyprus invasion and ethnic cleansing. And we have only to pick up one of the country's leading newspapers to read about the massacres in Africa and enslavement of Christian populations by Muslims.

If genocide and ethnic cleansing are news headlines today, what then can a Greek-American reader glean from this volume by Marjorie Housepian Dobkin? A great deal. This particular event, the Smyrna holocaust -- or "catastrophe" as Greeks generally refer to it, has been ignored by western historians. Consequently, many Greek-Americans, especially those whose family roots do not stem from Asia Minor, are not familiar with the details of this massive human tragedy. Yet the politics and pathos arising from that time have greatly affected the collective Greek psyche, and indeed, the course of history for the entire Greek nation. This stunning and well-written book by Dobkin helps to fill the information gap for Greek-Americans and Greek generations of the Diaspora. To be sure, Smyrna 1922: The Destruction of a City is not the only text written about the Smyrna holocaust, but it is one of the most authoritative and critically acclaimed books ever penned on this subject.

Professional reviewers speak in glowing terms about Dobkin's book. Here is a sampling of their remarks:

"A poignant, meticulously documented chronicle of an all but forgotten tragedy. . .beautifully recaptures the flavor and richness of Smyrna in it's prime."--New York Times Sunday Book Review

"A documentary indictment of the inhumanity of religion, the callousness of Powers and the avarice of commerce." --The London Sunday Times

". . .enlightening about the present day Middle Eastern situation. . .the deep emotional issues of the Cyprus problem

Marjorie Housepian Dobkin
can be understood in the light of the fires of Smyrna." -- The Nation

"Calculated to make a contemporary reader run screaming into the night. . .for its foreshadowing of similar attitudes in other places in the years to come. . .Miss Housepian tells her story well." --The Times Literary Supplement

"A vigorous but restrained account. . .raises profound issues of historiography and diplomatic morality." --The Guardian

" A creditable account of this critical period in the early postwar history of World War I in the Middle East. . .An important documentary." -- Howard Reese, naval historian, The Marine Corps Gazette.

Dobkin masterfully details the atrocities committed by the Turks against Armenian and Greek Christians in Smyrna: the massacres, rapes, pillages, and finally, the torching of this vibrant, cosmopolitan city. In a few short days, this jewel of urbanity and education was reduced to ashes and bones, bringing to an end 3,000 years of continuous Greek history in coastal Asia Minor. Readers march along with Dobkin relentlessly, drawn into the terror of the events. Throughout her chronological sequence, the author provides reliable and credible substantiation as she rejects Turkish counterclaims and denials with the brilliant illumination of historical reality. Unlike many books about Smyrna which rely almost exclusively on eyewitness accounts, this author has include copious amounts of archival material from governmental sources in Washington and has tracked down accounts written by Christian missionaries, American military personnel, and impartial diplomatic officials. Carefully utilizing records of well-educated observers, Dobkin clearly builds a case of irrefutable culpability on the part of the Turks.

For example, Dobkin cites American Vice-Consul Baines and other consular officials:

"Eyewitness Report. Turkish soldiers often directed by officers. Throwing petroleum in the streets and houses. Vice-consul Baines watched a Turkish officer leisurely fire the custom house and the passport bureau. The American navy patrol reported seeing a complete horseshoe of fire started by the Turks around the American school." Another American observer whose remarks have been cited is George Horton, longtime diplomatic official in the Near East; in his diary of September 1922, Horton estimated that over 100,000 were lost at Smyrna.

Dobkin's book was written at a critical period in history for political affairs in the Balkans and the Middle East. Of particular import are two issues at the forefront of Greek and Greek-American relations: Cyprus is scheduled to join the European Union shortly; the Turkish government seeks candidacy for entry into the European Union. Both of these issues are affected by the events of Smyrna in 1922, since Turkey steadfastly denies that any crimes against humanity took place in Smyrna. Moreover, she has attempted to coerce American lawmakers into refusing to recognize the genocide that has taken place. On October 18, 2000, House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL) withdrew a resolution from the House floor just moments before a vote to recognize that the "killing of 1.5 million Armenians by the Turkish state constituted this century's first genocide," according to P.D. Spyropoulos of the American Hellenic Media Project. Spyropoulos continued to explain: "Turkish officials had threatened to impose anti-American trade sanctions, cancel billions of dollars in U.S. military and commercial contracts, open a second oil pipeline from Iraq, forbid the U.S. from using Turkish airbases to patrol northern Iraq, and establish closer economic and diplomatic ties with Saddam Hussein."

With the advent of Smyrna 1922: The Destruction of a City and other such finely crafted, scholarly works, many of the world's most respected thinkers and academicians and authors have begun to speak out about Turkish revisionist attempts. In 1988, over 150 of such prominent individuals as Yehuda Bauer, Israel Charng, Seamus Heaney, Deborah Lipschadt, Arthur Miller, and Kurt Vonnegut took a stand against Turkey's multi-million-dollar propaganda campaign by signing a petition to affirm that this "denial of genocide is a form of aggression. It continues the process of genocide. It strives to reshape history in order to rehabilitate the perpetrators and demonize the victims. It prevents healing of the wounds inflicted by genocide. Denying genocide is the final stage of genocide—it murders the dignity of the survivors and destroys the remembrance of the crime."

Due to the efforts of persons with integrity and courage, like Marjorie Housepian Dobkin, a renaissance is taking place worldwide about seeking the truth of the Smyrna Catastrophe. Organizations such as the American Hellenic Asia Minor Society, led by President Bill Ameredes, and the noted ESTIA group in Athens, funded by Onassis grants, work to promote the truth. This year New York State designated May 19 as Pontian Greek Genocide Remembrance Day, according to one of our Philhellenic friends.

For Greek-Americans this book is a "must-read." Not only does it cover the Smyrna holocaust authoritatively, but it also sets the "catastrophe" within a wider pattern of genocide and ethnic cleansing in Asia Minor. The destruction of Smyrna was the final climax of Christian genocide for several decades, beginning with the Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks late in the 1800s. Dobkin's investigations demonstrate a change in tactics used by the Turks upon advice from German allies early in the twentieth century, ushering in a new era of mass murder through deportations, forced death marches, and internment. Enhanced killing efficiency chillingly prefigured World War II death camps. Indeed, German complicity stains every page of this horrendous tale, with Turkish successes encouraging the Nazis and setting the stage for the Jewish Holocaust. The words of Adolph Hilter were revealing when he dismissed the Armenians, remarking that no one remembered them.

Dobkin's book, then, not only informs Greek-Americans about the Christian holocaust of Smyrna, but also sets the tragedy within a larger historical context of racism and genocide, topics as relevant today as they were centuries ago. Readers will gain a firm understanding of the effects these horrendous events had on later conflicts in the Balkans and Europe. Clear, well-written, and eminently factual, Smyrna 1922: A Destruction of a City belongs in every library and on every history-course syllabus. Readers can obtain copies through booksellers on the Internet and by calling 212-662-4080.