Your Greek Friends Stand Beside You!

[notjustarmenian]

This work is not about the Armenian Genocide but about population deportations. I think it covers this subject in a precise and unbiases manner.
If this makes the author a revisionist, and me I suppose, we can both expect visits in the night from mono-brow thugs, eek!

Be careful using the word "deportation" so loosely in the context of Ottoman Turkey. Deportations were the act of forcefully deporting Christian populations, Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks, into the Interior as a form of "white massacre" in order to facilitate the elimination of their element in the Empire. Bruce Clark claims to deal with rather a population exchange or transfer. He uses the term ethnic engineering if my memory serves me correctly. Sadly, he deals with issues outside of his proposed subject area in an unprofessional and largely ill-informed manner. In any case, his work cannot be categorized as scholarship by any standard and historical inaccuracies throughout are testimony to this.

If you are attempting to minimize the plight of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as merely a mutual slaughter and not an act of genocide then indeed you are actively distorting and falsify history and as such can be called a revisionist. The same can be said for the plight of Greeks and Assyrians.

[Steph]

Be careful using the word "deportation" so loosely in the context of Ottoman Turkey. Deportations were the act of forcefully deporting Christian populations, Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks, into the Interior as a form of "white massacre" in order to facilitate the elimination of their element in the Empire. Bruce Clark claims to deal with rather a population exchange or transfer. He uses the term ethnic engineering if my memory serves me correctly. Sadly, he deals with issues outside of his proposed subject area in an unprofessional and largely ill-informed manner. In any case, his work cannot be categorized as scholarship by any standard and historical inaccuracies throughout are testimony to this.

Clark does indeed use the term "ethnic engineering" as he also uses the phrases: deportation, expulsion, forced population movements.

[Steph]

If you are attempting to minimize the plight of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as merely a mutual slaughter and not an act of genocide then indeed you are actively distorting and falsify history and as such can be called a revisionist. The same can be said for the plight of Greeks and Assyrians.

Am I attempting this? I thought I was simply trying to explain the premis of this book, for God's sake. Your choice of language to myself is very stilted and sounds quite Stalinist/Leninst. Perhaps you should know a person better before insulting them so.

[Steph]

Extract from Clark's book.

"Twice a Stranger" Bruce Clark.

Extract from the Introduction, pages 8 & 9.

In one of the most ghastly chapters of modern history, the entire Armenain population of Anatolia was deported southwards and at least 600,000 died as a result. To this day bitter arguments rage between the turkish government, it's defenders and critics over the cause of these deaths. Were they the result of a deliberate policy of mass killing or, so to speak, negligence? A few courageous turkish historians have argued the absurdity of the latter position.

My italics

[notjustarmenian]

Am I attempting this? I thought I was simply trying to explain the premis of this book, for God's sake. Your choice of language to myself is very stilted and sounds quite Stalinist/Leninst. Perhaps you should know a person better before insulting them so.

I did not insult you nor did I say you were a revisionist. I did say, however, that if you consider the Armenian Genocide a mere mutual slaughter then indeed you would be one. If you do not, then my statement doesn't apply to you.

[notjustarmenian]

"Twice a Stranger" Bruce Clark.

Extract from the Introduction, pages 8 & 9.

In one of the most ghastly chapters of modern history, the entire Armenain population of Anatolia was deported southwards and at least 600,000 died as a result. To this day bitter arguments rage between the turkish government, it's defenders and critics over the cause of these deaths. Were they the result of a deliberate policy of mass killing or, so to speak, negligence? A few courageous turkish historians have argued the absurdity of the latter position.

My italics

That's fine. My reference to the book also includes your emphasized "at least".

Moreover, this goes on to prove my previous point about lose usage of the term "deportation". Here, deportation is used as the act of forcefully moving an Armenian population southwards in order to facilitate their destruction. You said that the book was about "population deportations". It is not about such deportations. It claims to be about a population exchange/transfer which the author defines as ethnic engineering. My point was that you shouldn't confuse a population exchange with the common usage and understanding of the term "deportation", especially in reference to the late Ottoman Empire.

[bell-the-cat]

I have been taught the exact things you say.Either through schooling either through life in Greece.
I am really sceptical though on the numbers.Greece was not in the position Armenia was in the 20's.
We reached the pick of our expansionism in 1920 after having officially incorporated in Greece all of Macedonia,Thrace,and a significant part of Minor Asia,the Islands(apart from the Dodecanese which we took in 1947,) Crete(1913) and almost Cyprus(1914 but we rejected the offer made by the UK).The above areas stayed in the modern Greek state for 2-3 years.

We were in a far more advantageous position compared to Armenia,which hardly existed for a couple of years back then and the distribution of power of the time indeed was equal if not more than Turkey(dont forget the the Turks were fighting their war of independence against the Greeks among many other nations of the time).
That is why Greece never officially pushed a Genocide issue against Turkey,merely bsc we knew we would have valid answers from Turkey if we ever raised an issue like that.
The pontic issue is different.No intention to nulify the attrocities commited by Turkey against the Pontic Greeks but i do question the numbers.If Greece herself didnt question the numbers,by now we would have raised a genocide issue formally against Turkey.
So comparing the Armenian Genocide which is in my mind a true Genocide to the attrocities against the Greeks commited by Turkey,has no merit.
I believe i am a level-headed Greek thus sceptical about applying the term ''genocide'' commited against Greeks in general.
Comparing Greece of 1920 with Armenia of 1920 is like comparing David and Goliath.We never in our history as a modern Greek state had annexed more land than the land we had in 1920 under the Sevres Treaty...

That's a pretty open-minded and dispassionate outlook. And, of course, Turkey never had the intent to kill every Greek everywhere, which is something that Turks/Kurds/Azeris and the rest certainly were working towards by the end of WW1 (and in current Azeri ideology are still working towards). It's also probable that had the Greek invasion of western Anatolia been successful they would have done the same to the Turkish population as the Turks did to the Greek population. However, regardless of that, what happened to the Greek population of Anatolia was genocide. The circumstances in which it occured doesn't change the reality of what it was.

[bell-the-cat]

That's fine. My reference to the book also includes your emphasized "at least".

Moreover, this goes on to prove my previous point about lose usage of the term "deportation". Here, deportation is used as the act of forcefully moving an Armenian population southwards in order to facilitate their destruction. You said that the book was about "population deportations". It is not about such deportations. It claims to be about a population exchange/transfer which the author defines as ethnic engineering. My point was that you shouldn't confuse a population exchange with the common usage and understanding of the term "deportation", especially in reference to the late Ottoman Empire.

It is loose because the author chose it because he could make it loose. Nothing that happened in Van, Moush, Erzurum, Trabzon, and many other paces could seriously be called a "deportation". Mass murder, massacre, holocaust, maybe - but "deportation", never. Based on that paragraph I'd have doubts about the accuracy of the whole book and its author's motives and ability to tackle the subject.

[Panos26]

I imagine the Greek governments since 1923 have decided, for reasons perhaps linked to stability in the region, not to pursue the Genocide against turkey.
Greece was not in a position to negotiate through strength for many years, perhaps even now, and faced with the power in the Balkans probably decided to be like dad and keep mum!

That is ignorant.Greece is in a very good position,the best in regards the neighbouring Balkan countries and by far better than Armenia.There is no level of comparison between Greece and Armenia.Military wise,economically wise.Those are just arbitrary conclutions on why Greece hasnt raised a genocide issue just to ''excuse'' Greece.
The reality is always in the middle.And Greece at the time did monsterous attrocities to Turkish people as well.
Our hardcore stance is evident in Cyprus,where to date we have not even given them equal rights.

[Steph]

I did not insult you nor did I say you were a revisionist. I did say, however, that if you consider the Armenian Genocide a mere mutual slaughter then indeed you would be one. If you do not, then my statement doesn't apply to you.

The response of a proto-politician. If you really want to insult someone, at least have the courage to stand by your insults and not hide behind semantics.