Your Greek Friends Stand Beside You!

[Panos26]

The British sources in this article are not British eyewitness testimonies but two selective declarations of opinion based on God knows which influencing factors. Eyewitness testimonies in the British archives all cite the Turks as responsible for the fire. You may also like to examine the documents of British Vice-Consul Urquhart if you are interested in the British side.

By the way, it is most amusing that you base your knowledge on Wikipedia's account of the burning of Izmir -- one of the most reliable sources!

There is a beautiful book by a Turkish academic called Türkiye'de Sözlü Tarih, Kimlik ve Öznellik ["Who Am I?": Oral History, Identity and Subjectivity in Turkey] by Leyla Neyzi. You might like to read it especially since you talk of "oral tradition":

“… September 9th 1922, the Turkish forces entered Izmir. But the Izmir fire started a few days after this (September 13th), after the Turkish army had entered Izmir. However, in the common memories of the Turks its place [the date] is so uncertain that some make the mistake of claiming that the fire started before the Greeks left Izmir.” sourced from page 80.

She also uses solely Turkish eyewitnesses that all explicitly state the Turks started the fire. There are many other Turkish volumes I can recommend too.

Regardles of how you PERSONALLY interprete the British sources an overall neutral academic tendency holds 50-50 responsibility.

Now noone is denying what happened in Smirni from both parties.But leaving aside the Armenian Genocide i personally as a Greek citizen have not yet fully discovered why Greece officially has not raised a genocide issue against Turkey.My guess is and i abide by it,is that always the truth is in the middle.However hard we try to discredit the other side.Yet that is a personall estimation none the less.

[notjustarmenian]

Regardles of how you PERSONALLY interprete the British sources an overall neutral academic tendency holds 50-50 responsibility.

Now noone is denying what happened in Smirni from both parties.But leaving aside the Armenian Genocide i personally as a Greek citizen have not yet fully discovered why Greece officially has not raised a genocide issue against Turkey.My guess is and i abide by it,is that always the truth is in the middle.However hard we try to discredit the other side.Yet that is a personall estimation none the less.

My God, you need to stop with this conspiracy theory and 50-50 nonsense. Whatever I or you say about the British sources cited in Wikipedia, they are not eyewitness accounts. British eyewitness accounts document Turkish responsibility. Forget Wikipedia as the source of all knowledge and look at some Turkish volumes. Even consider looking at Standford Shaw's first writings on the Smyrna fire.

By the way, British sources do not indicate a "50-50" responsibility. This is categorically false and gravely incorrect. Go to British Foreign Office archive at Kew Gardens, London and pull up the records on Smyrna.

Greece has officially passed two governmental decrees on the genocide of the Greeks in Asia Minor; both were passed unanimously and the first decree was passed two years before they passed a resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide. You are right that they have not placed pursuing a Greek Genocide recognition on an international level.

Countless Turkish academics, who although deny the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide, state that the burning of Izmir was the responsibility of the Turks. In recent years there have been more books and journal papers published by Turkish academics declaring Turkish responsibility than there have been by any other group.

Go to a library and read Turkish books by Turkish academics. And please look beyond Wikipedia.

A "Guess" is no indication of how history occurred.

[notjustarmenian]

Incidentally, I'm not attempting to discredit the Turkish view point. On the contrary, I am telling you to look at Turkish volumes by Turkish academics. You can just as easily find the truth there.

[Panos26]

My God, you need to stop with this conspiracy theory and 50-50 nonsense. Whatever I or you say about the British sources cited in Wikipedia, they are not eyewitness accounts. British eyewitness accounts document Turkish responsibility. Forget Wikipedia as the source of all knowledge and look at some Turkish volumes. Even consider looking at Standford Shaw's first writings on the Smyrna fire.

By the way, British sources do not indicate a "50-50" responsibility. This is categorically false and gravely incorrect. Go to British Foreign Office archive at Kew Gardens, London and pull up the records on Smyrna.

Greece has officially passed two governmental decrees on the genocide of the Greeks in Asia Minor; both were passed unanimously and the first decree was passed two years before they passed a resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide. You are right that they have not placed pursuing a Greek Genocide recognition on an international level.

Countless Turkish academics, who although deny the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide, state that the burning of Izmir was the responsibility of the Turks. In recent years there have been more books and journal papers published by Turkish academics declaring Turkish responsibility than there have been by any other group.

Go to a library and read Turkish books by Turkish academics. And please look beyond Wikipedia.

A "Guess" is no indication of how history occurred.

I can do the ''cherry picking'' thing out of the sources either Turkish or not but it is boring.The current academic standing is that there is no clear conclution as to who and why burnt the city.If i had conclusive evidence i would appear as certain as you.I choose not be dragged to what i consider ethnic propaganda from both parties and adopt the current academic standing.

Regarding the decrees,our Parliament has also adopted resolutions on the Pontic genocide,which you fail to mention.Besides the key issue is why Greece hasnt raised a Genocide issue against Turkey internationally.
If Armenia,a country much smaller than Greece,less economically developed and with limited millitary power compared to Greece can raise an issue as such against Turkey,then Greece would have no problem doing the same if we had conclusive evidence.92 years a real genocide has not been fully recognized world wide,so i would expect a fictional genocide like the one against the Greeks to never get international support from the International community.I prefer to use the word attrocities against the Greeks.I leave the word Genocide for the Armenians.


Also let me add that in our oral tradition we use the words ''Olokautwma tis Smirnis'' which means The holocaust of Smirna and ''Mikrasiatiki Katastrofi'' which means the Minor Asia disaster.

We apply the term Genocide only against the Armenians and the Pontic Greeks.We say ''Genoktonia twn Armeniwn'' and ''Genoktonia twn Pontiwn''.We never say Genocide of the Greeks or '' Genoktonia twn Ellinwn'' in Greek.There must be a reason that our oral tradition has not allowed us to refer to a tottallitarian Genocide aimed against the whole of the Greek ethnos.In our consiousness the bloodiest part of our modern history comes during the Minor Asia disaster,followed as second best the Turkish invation in Cyprus.No mention of a tottalitarian Genocide against the Greeks what so ever in our tradition or our consiousness.

[Panos26]

Also let me add that the decrees passed on the Minor Asia disaster in the Greek parliament do not contain the word Genocide of the Greeks.Provide me the whole Greek text and i can translate it for you.
The only resolutions that use the word Genocide in the Greek parliamnent are the ones adopted for the Armenians and the Pontic Greeks(but the Pontic Greeks are only a fracture of the Greek ethnos,thus we refuse to adopt a Genocide issue against the whole Greek ethnos).

[notjustarmenian]

Also let me add that the decrees passed on the Minor Asia disaster in the Greek parliament do not contain the word Genocide of the Greeks.Provide me the whole Greek text and i can translate it for you.
The only resolutions that use the word Genocide in the Greek parliamnent are the ones adopted for the Armenians and the Pontic Greeks(but the Pontic Greeks are only a fracture of the Greek ethnos,thus we refuse to adopt a Genocide issue against the whole Greek ethnos).

O how very wrong you are! It DOES contain the word "genoktonia" which means "genocide". My Greek is perfectly good, thank you.

Here is a link to the text: http://www.greek-genocide.org/doc_recg_grkgov.html
(It contains both decrees - Law 2645/98 and Law 2193/94, on the Pontian and Asia Minor genocides respectively)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm quite sure right, "Genoktonia ton Ellinon tis Mikras Asias" means the "Genocide of the Greeks of Asia Minor".

Someone needs to do there homework... don't they!?!?

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Edit:
I'm not going to answer your other email. You obviously have rejected the vast body of archival evidence both Turkish and international, which goes far beyond circumstantial evidence as countless Turkish academics have confirmed in their scholarship in recent years, and, instead, you have chosen to look at a few sporadic accounts which are neither eyewitness testimonies or explicit in nature and then call it "50-50". The fact you use Wikipedia as the source of all knowledge is an indication of what resources you choose to learn history from. Also, the numerous inaccuracies in your arguments, the last one being pointed out above, have forfeited your right to be taken seriously.
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In one last final attempt that you reconsider your stance on our history and in particular the Greek Genocide. I would please ask you to consider looking at the following:
1) Quotations on the Greek Genocide from major figures of the period.

http://www.greek-genocide.org/quotes.html

2) 100 articles from over 30 different international newspapers on the Greek Genocide.

http://www.greek-genocide.org/press.html

3) Archival Evidence on Greek Genocide with sample documents on the Greek Genocide including Foreign Office archive material from Austrian, British and US sources.

http://www.greek-genocide.org/documents.html

4) A collection of rare books on the Greek Genocide in various languages are available to download as Adobe PDF files.

http://www.greek-genocide.org/books.html

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Please, please, just consider examining the large body of evidence that exists beyond wikipedia.

[Panos26]

O how very wrong you are! It DOES contain the word "genoktonia" which means "genocide". My Greek is perfectly good, thank you.

Here is a link to the text: http://www.greek-genocide.org/doc_recg_grkgov.html
(It contains both decrees - Law 2645/98 and Law 2193/94, on the Pontian and Asia Minor genocides respectively)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm quite sure right, "Genoktonia ton Ellinon tis Mikras Asias" means the "Genocide of the Greeks of Asia Minor".

Someone needs to do there homework... don't they!?!?

++++++++++++++++
Edit:
I'm not going to answer your other email. You obviously have rejected the vast body of archival evidence both Turkish and international, which goes far beyond circumstantial evidence as countless Turkish academics have confirmed in their scholarship in recent years, and, instead, you have chosen to look at a few sporadic accounts which are neither eyewitness testimonies or explicit in nature and then call it "50-50". The fact you use Wikipedia as the source of all knowledge is an indication of what resources you choose to learn history from. Also, the numerous inaccuracies in your arguments, the last one being pointed out above, have forfeited your right to be taken seriously.
--------
In one last final attempt that you reconsider your stance on our history and in particular the Greek Genocide. I would please ask you to consider looking at the following:
1) Quotations on the Greek Genocide from major figures of the period.

http://www.greek-genocide.org/quotes.html

2) 100 articles from over 30 different international newspapers on the Greek Genocide.

http://www.greek-genocide.org/press.html

3) Archival Evidence on Greek Genocide with sample documents on the Greek Genocide including Foreign Office archive material from Austrian, British and US sources.

http://www.greek-genocide.org/documents.html

4) A collection of rare books on the Greek Genocide in various languages are available to download as Adobe PDF files.

http://www.greek-genocide.org/books.html

-------
Please, please, just consider examining the large body of evidence that exists beyond wikipedia.

Yes the word Genoktonia is there it ,specifies though the Minor asia and Pontus areas.Not the whole ethnos,like the Armenian genocide.You are right about the word.So now except the internal reasons by which we recognized the Genocide of the Greeks in the above areas and not the calculated genocide of the whole Greek population or ethnos living in the Ottoman Empire.Why didnt we raise an international issue?

Bsc nobody is gonna back it.Apart from Greece,Cyprus,Armenia and i ll give u Serbia that is our close ally.Plus the evidence are not conclusive.
So regardless of what Greece says internally for domestic reasons(which i consider propaganda) ,Greece clearly understands that no support will come from the International community.
As i said a true genocide like the Armenian one has not been fully recognized.One cannot expect a fictional genocide to be recognized regardless of what Greece says or does internally.If we had the balls and our case was solid we would have raised an issue against Turkey,exactly like Armenia is doing.
I consider the above overexaggerated fairytales for the Greek citizens to go to sleep at night thinking that the Turks are the only ones responsible for what happened in Smyrna.
I am free to consider that Greece had an expansionistic agenda specially during the Megali Idea era that has brought all this to herself.The Megalli Idea was a BS nationalistic issue that up to the 60's(with Cyprus) has caused a great deal of hardship to the Greeks.
Thank God we are passed that today.

And about Wikipedia i consider ALL the body of evidence unlike you who seems fixated on trying to find Turkish responsibility for the burning of the city.So for the time being as far as i understand the ''cherry picking'' has not paid off,and modern academia gives a share of responsibility regardless of how much the Greeks might want to descredit the other side.So no point doing rounds around the subject.Provide evidence that no neutral sources claim Greek responsibility and then i ll be free to consider that the Turks hold the sole responsibility.

Yet you didnt answer my question.Why havent we raised an international genocide issue against Turkey?

[notjustarmenian]

Yes the word Genoktonia is there it ,specifies though the Minor asia and Pontus areas.Not the whole ethnos,like the Armenian genocide.You are right about the word.So now except the internal reasons by which we recognized the Genocide of the Greeks in the above areas and not the calculated genocide of the whole Greek population or ethnos living in the Ottoman Empire.

Yes, genocide occurred against the Greeks of Asia Minor, not against all Greeks in the world. The Jewish Holocaust was not perpetrated against all Jews and nor was the Armenian Genocide perpetrated against all Armenians. This doesn't mean that because not all Armenians or not all Jews were in the genocidal region that we can't call them a Jewish Holocaust or Armenian Genocide.

The Turkish government implemented a policy of annihilation against all Armenians within its territory and they did exactly the same for the Greeks. There were Armenians that lived outside the Ottoman Empire, exactly as there were Greeks outside the Empire. I provided you with archival documentation and press reports as well as quotations and books. You ignored this. If you take the time to read through the documents you will realize that the genocide was perpetrated throughout Asia Minor. Asia Minor = all of Anatolia

And about Wikipedia i consider ALL the body of evidence unlike you who seems fixated on trying to find Turkish responsibility for the burning of the city.So for the time being as far as i understand the ''cherry picking'' has not paid off,and modern academia gives a share of responsibility regardless of how much the Greeks might want to descredit the other side.So no point doing rounds around the subject.Provide evidence that no neutral sources claim Greek responsibility and then i ll be free to consider that the Turks hold the sole responsibility.

You have not looked at the large body of evidence. I suggested you look at Turkish volumes by Turkish academics and I even offered to suggest some titles. You ignored this. I suggested you look at volumes by 'academics' who deny the Armenian Genocide yet consent to the Turkish responsibility for the burning of Smyrna. Again, you ignored this. The majority of Turkish academics claim Turkish responsibility for the fire. I agree with this point of view and so am not trying to discredit the Turks. I merely disagree with the Turkish Ministry for Foreign Affairs which weirdly acts as a historical soceity.

There are many neutral sources that dispute the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide but this doesn't mean it didn't happen. As I said, you are ignoring the vast majority of evidence and concentrating on a few sporadic accounts that are not eyewitness testimonies in any case. By claiming that the Smyrna fire was not Turkish responsibility you are calling all scholarship done by Armenian scholars on Smyrna incorrect.

Yet you didnt answer my question.Why havent we raised an international genocide issue against Turkey?

Greece doesn't pursue recognition of the Greek Genocide on an international scale but they do not shy away from the issue either. Greece is interested in financial progression and has realised this is dependent on appeasement and being the finest xxxxx in the Balkans. They have officially recognised the genocide and annually organise commemoration ceremonies without fail. In any case, what both past and present governments of Greece do has not nothing to with whether the events constitute genocide or not.

Look at the archival material. Look at the press reports. Open your eyes

[Panos26]

Yes, genocide occurred against the Greeks of Asia Minor, not against all Greeks in the world. The Jewish Holocaust was not perpetrated against all Jews and nor was the Armenian Genocide perpetrated against all Armenians. This doesn't mean that because not all Armenians or not all Jews were in the genocidal region that we can't call them a Jewish Holocaust or Armenian Genocide.

The Turkish government implemented a policy of annihilation against all Armenians within its territory and they did exactly the same for the Greeks. There were Armenians that lived outside the Ottoman Empire, exactly as there were Greeks outside the Empire. I provided you with archival documentation and press reports as well as quotations and books. You ignored this. If you take the time to read through the documents you will realize that the genocide was perpetrated throughout Asia Minor. Asia Minor = all of Anatolia



You have not looked at the large body of evidence. I suggested you look at Turkish volumes by Turkish academics and I even offered to suggest some titles. You ignored this. I suggested you look at volumes by 'academics' who deny the Armenian Genocide yet consent to the Turkish responsibility for the burning of Smyrna. Again, you ignored this. The majority of Turkish academics claim Turkish responsibility for the fire. I agree with this point of view and so am not trying to discredit the Turks. I merely disagree with the Turkish Ministry for Foreign Affairs which weirdly acts as a historical soceity.

There are many neutral sources that dispute the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide but this doesn't mean it didn't happen. As I said, you are ignoring the vast majority of evidence and concentrating on a few sporadic accounts that are not eyewitness testimonies in any case. By claiming that the Smyrna fire was not Turkish responsibility you are calling all scholarship done by Armenian scholars on Smyrna incorrect.



Greece doesn't pursue recognition of the Greek Genocide on an international scale but they do not shy away from the issue either. Greece is interested in financial progression and has realised this is dependent on appeasement and being the finest xxxxx in the Balkans. They have officially recognised the genocide and annually organise commemoration ceremonies without fail. In any case, what both past and present governments of Greece do has not nothing to with whether the events constitute genocide or not.

Look at the archival material. Look at the press reports. Open your eyes

Firstly i did talk about the Greeks in the Ottoman Empire.I didnt say the whole Greek population of the world.That is pathetic.Again ''cherry picking''?Dont try to twist my words to make an argument out of a non-argument.

Lastly while it is your personall opinion is that Greece doesnt want to pursue an international recognision of a genocide,you have yet to nulify the validy of my personal opinion that the above genocide is a fictional one,just to fit domestic Greek pupropes which i name propaganda.So basically is just your word against mine.Provide evidence as to why Greece doesnt wanna pursue an international recognition of the genocide.


I use the term attrocities agaist the Greeks.Not genocide,which is merely a fictional fairy-tale nationalists in Greece believe.As i said a true genocide is not yet fully being recognized,one cannot expect a fictional one to be recognized.The right term is attrocities against the Greeks regardless of what Greece might want to internally propagate.Internationally the ''genocide'' issue of Greeks'' is purely science fiction.

[notjustarmenian]

Firstly i did talk about the Greeks in the Ottoman Empire.I didnt say the whole Greek population of the world.That is pathetic.Again ''cherry picking''?Dont try to twist my words to make an argument out of a non-argument.

Lastly while it is your personall opinion is that Greece doesnt want to pursue an international recognision of a genocide,you have yet to nulify the validy of my personal opinion that the above genocide is a fictional one,just to fit domestic Greek pupropes which i name propaganda.So basically is just your word against mine.Provide evidence as to why Greece doesnt wanna pursue an international recognition of the genocide.


I use the term attrocities agaist the Greeks.Not genocide,which is merely a fictional fairy-tale nationalists in Greece believe.As i said a true genocide is not yet fully being recognized,one cannot expect a fictional one to be recognized.The right term is attrocities against the Greeks regardless of what Greece might want to internally propagate.Internationally the ''genocide'' issue of Greeks'' is purely science fiction.

Okay believe what you like. I provided press reports, quotations and archival documentation to validate my view that it was genocide. We live in a civilised and democratic region of the world so you are free to say what you like. I may not have extensively nullified your opinion that there was no genocide against the Greeks but I have provided you with vast evidence on the contrary. Over 100 press reports from over 30 different international newspaper even sourced from as far as Japan, I have provided archival material from Austrian, British and American archives as well as other documentation such as books written at the time of the genocide. You have ignored all of the provided documentation.

On the other hand, you have provided no evidence to validate your claim.

Neither of us can provide evidence on why the Greek government is doing such and such. In any case, it does not matter what the Greek government does. The policies of the Greek Government don't determine what is genocide and what is not. The archival documentation exists.

As I said before, you are free to believe what you want. I have provided documentation to validate my beliefs.

Have a nice life.