Treaty of Sevres... can we do anything about it today?

[Hovik]

Talat, your name is an insult to yourself, those who died, and the website. it is not acceptable. You may, if you wish, come back to the site with a different (more appropriate name). But this name will be banned. Have some respect please.

[kemal]

With regards to the Treaty of Sevres, you (the Turkish side) can argue that it was overridden by the Treaty of Lausanne. Us Armenians have our own arguments. Point one is that fact that the treaty of Sevres was recognized by the world community. More importantly, the LEGITIMATE Turkish government recognized the Treaty of Sevres. It was the ILLEGITIMATE counter-goverment of Ataturk the Childmolestor which USURPED power through illegal, un-democratic means, and then proclaimed the treaty of Sevres to be void.

This paragraph demonstates why you should think twice before commenting on things with your current knowledge. Ottoman government do not have a legtimate basis to approve a treaty neither the persons who signed it. A treaty should be ratified by the Ottoman Parliament. Serves was never ratified so it was born allready dead. According to international law, or United Nations even for the Armenian state there is no such a treaty. Treaties requires the approval of both sides, right?

In 1920, In Gumru Treaty, Alexander Khadissian, prime minister of the first Armenian Republic that short lived, approved that Serves was not an issue anymore. Before it was ratified by the Armenian Parliament, Red Army invaded Armenia. In 1921 (18th of February) Dashnaks revolted under the leadership of Vratzian and gain the control of Erivan again. And they asked the Turkish National Assembly to support them agains the Russians. But the revolt was not succesful and the Russians recaptured the Armenian state.

In March 16, 1921 Russians and Turkish National Government in Ankara signed the Moscow Treaty and Russians recognized the current borders of Turkey. In 13th of October 1921 this time the states of Armenia-Georgia and Azerbaijan signed the Kars treaty and it is more or less the same with the Moscow treaty. This is the treaty where Armenian State recognizes the borders of Turkey.

And I guess it must be a suprise for you to learn that Kars Treaty has not been denounced or revoked by the Government of Armenia. This is not what I say. It is Vartan Oskanian who claims it. He is the Foreign Minister of Armenia. I guess he must have more knowledge about the issue than you! He also states that Armenia acknoledges the treaties of the days of Soviet Uion as the heir, unless declared otherwise. This is what a serious state does.

I wonder who propogates the lie that Serves is valid and will be valid. Those people should be provocators that benefits from such a dipute. And unfortunately it might be from both sides! That is to say a clever Turkish Nationalist must propogate such a lie so that when Armenians repeat these statements they can point the finger and say "You see they don't even respect international law, and try to achieve what their forefathers couldn't do".

We have a very solid basis to take this issue to the international courts and present our claims.

Apparently Vartan Oskanian would support Turkish claims in such a court.

As I have said before, if there is any dispute here with regards to the Treaty of Sevres, THERE IS NO DISPUTE WHATSOEVER with regards to Kars and Ardahan legally belonging to the Republic of Armenia. The Treaty of Kars and Moscow which gave Kars and Ardahan to the Turks were ILLEGAL and therefore legally non-binding.

Such an intense knowledge of history and international law must be the reason why you are not appointed as the Foreign minister of Armenia.

It is interesting how confident you feel about your statement that "Countries world wide recognize Turkey's borders." I only wish that the Turkish goverment was as confident as yourself. It is interesting, after Armenia gained its independence, the first thing Turkey did was to ask Armenia to confirm the treaty of Kars and Moscow. Armenia refused this, and today on Turkey's "enemy list" tiny Armenia is number 2 right after Greece.

You talk as if you were around during those days. But you also sound as if you left for so long, hence you lost your contact nowadays.

Furthermore, this is not an Armenia issue alone. The Greeks have their interests and demands in the Treaty of Sevres. The Kurds have theirs.

First of all Greeks are not enemy number one in the list. Stupidity is enemy number one. Armenia is not enemy number two. Nationalistic blindness is enemy number two. And fundementalism is enemy number three if you wonder at all...

We are doing good with Greeks. We drink ouzo and dance sirtaki nowadays. They lost their priority in the Turkish foreign policy. It is the Cypriot President taking the attention in media. Any way neither Kurds nor Greeks nor Armenians with some logic and mind has an issue of Serves in their heads. Once I hear from a Turkish friend who was involved with political islamists he wished Serves was accepted back than. According to him, in that case we wouldn't have a secular country and Ataturk, a smaller but at least an Islamic which would be much better. You see stupidity has no ethnical correlation.

Go and wipe your own ass before you stick your big Turkish nose into other people's affairs, kapish?

Unfortunately I don't think in this forum there is a place for racism. It is not the racial background that contributes to a forum. It is the ideas -which seems you have much- that matters.

[kemal]

Let me also post it here since I believe this is where it should be.

Kars Treaty is what determines the boundaries of modern Turkey with Armenia and Georgea and Azerbaijan. Furthermore the Kars Treaty is where Armenia accepts that Turkey has the land determned by the Turkish National Pact (Misak-ı Milli - the present day borders of modern Turkey which was declared in 1920). Those borders are approved in Lausanne with other parties. That is to say Armenia don't need to sign Lausanne since they already approved the borders and dropped the claims on 6 provinces of Turkey with the Kars Treaty.

http://groong.usc.edu/treaties/kars.html

Article II

The Contracting Parties agree not to recognize any treaty of peace or other international act imposed upon one any of them against its will. In virtue of this agreement, the Governments of the Socialist Soviet Republics of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia agree not to recognize any international act concerning Turkey which has not been recognized by the National Government of Turkey, actually represented by its Grand National Assembly. (By the term Turkey is meant, in the present Treaty, the territories included in the Turkish National Pact of January 28, 1920 (1336), developed and proclaimed by the Ottoman Chamber of Deputies in Constantinople and communicated to the press and to all States).

The border between the parties is is as follows:

Article IV
The northeast border of Turkey (according to the map of the Russian General Staff, on a scale of 1:210000.5 verstes to the inch) is determined by the line which, beginnin at the village of Sarp on the Black Sea, passes by the Mt. Khedis Mga, the watershed line of at Mt. Shavshet- Mount Kana Dagh; from there, it always follows the former northern administrative borders of the sanjaks of Ardahan and Kars, the thalweg of the Arpachai River and that of the Arax as far as the mouth of the Nijni Kara Su river. (For details of the border and questions pertaining to it, see Annexes I and II and the map inclosed, signed by the two Contracting Parties. In the event of discrepancies between the text of the Treaty and the Map, the text of the treaty shall prevail over the map).

A mixed commission of delimitation, comprised of equal number of members, with the participation of a representative of the RSFSR, is directed to determine in detail and to establish the actual border of the state, and to erecte boundary markers. (Annex IV: the map). [not reproduced]

ANNEX I
Northeast Frontier (follows verbatim Annex 1(a) of the Turkish-Russian Treaty of March 16, 1921)
The northeast border of Turkey is fixed as follows (according to the map of the Russian General Staff, on a scale of 1:210,000.5 verstes to the inch):

The village of Sari on the Black Sea, Mt. Kara-Shalvar (5014), crosses Chorokh to the north from the village of Maradidi, passes to the north of Sabur, Mt. Khedis Mga (7052), Mt. Kva-Kibe, village of Kavtareli, line of watershed Medzibna Mountain and Mt. Great-Kessun (6468), follows the line of the watershed Mt. Korda (7910), goes along the western part of the ridge Shavshet to the administrative border of the former Artvin district, goes to the Mt. Sari Chai (Kara-Issal) (8478), summit of the mountain Kviral, then follows the administrative border of the former Ardahan district by Mt. Kana-Dagh, thence, turning to the north, goes to Mt. Tlil (Grmani) (8357), and following the former border of Ardahan, goes to the northeast of the village of Badela, to the river Poskov-Chai, and follows to the south aling this river to a point to the north of the village of Chap Chakh, then it leaves the river, follows the watershed to Mt. Airlian-Bashi, goes over the Mts. Kella-Tana (9709), reaches Mt. Kasris-Seri (9681), and follows along the river Karzamet Chai until it reaches the river Kura, thence it goes along the line of the watershed of Mt. Kara-Ogli (7259), whence, dividing in two parts Lake Khazapin, it goes to the elevation 7580, then to Mt. Geg-Dagh (9152), goes over Mt. Uch-Tapoylar (9783), and Mt. Taila-Kala (9716), ridge 9065, where it leaves the border of the former Ardahan district and passes over the Mts. B. Akh Barba (9963), 8828 (8827), 7602, goes to the east of the village of Ibish, reaches elevation 7518, and then Mt. Kizil Dash (7439) (7440), village of New Kizil-Dash (Kizel-Dash), passes to the west from the Karamemeda, goes to the river Jambushu Chai (which is to the east of the village of Delaver, B. Kikli, and Tikhnis), and through the village of Vartanli and Bashi-Shuragel; following the above-named river, it goes to the river Arpa Chai to the north of Kayalala, from there follows all the time the thalweg of the river Arpa Chai and arrives at the river Araxes, following its thalweg to the mouth of the river Lower Kara Su.

ANNEX II
Withdrawal of Troops in Arpa-Chai and Araxes Regions (follows verbatim Annex 1(b) of the Turkish-Russian Treaty of March 16, 1921)

Taking into consideration that the border line, as it is shown in Annex I, is the thalwegs of the rivers Arpa Chai and Araxes, the Government of the Grand National Assembly undertakes to remove the line of block-houses to the distance of 8 versts from the Alexandropol-Yerevan railway line in the district of the Arpa Chai river, and to the distance of 4 versts from the above-named railway in the district of the river Araxes. The lines which enclose the above-named districts are shown below: the district of the river Arpa Chai at sections (a) and (b) of Paragraph 1, and the district of the river Araxes in Paragraph 2.


Paragraph 1: District of the river Arpa Chai

(a) To the southeast from Vartanli, to the east from Uzun-Kilisa over Mt. xxxyar (5096), 5082-5047, to the east from Karmir-Vaik-Uch-Tapa (5578), to the east from Arzaz Oghlu, to the east from Ani, reaches Arpa Chai to the west from Yeni-Ki.

(b) Leaves Arpa Chai to the east from elevation 5019, goes straight to elevation 5481, at the distance of 4.5 versts, to the east from Kizil Kula at 2 versts, to the east from Bojali, and then the river Digor Chai, follows along this river to the village of Duz-Kechut, and goes straight to the north from the ruins of Karabat and to Arpa Chai.


Paragraph 2: District of the river Araxes

A straight line between Kharaba Alijan and the village of Suleiman (Diza).

In the districts bordered on one side by the line of the Alexandropol-Yerevan railway and on the other by the lines which are 8 and 4 versts from the above-named railway, the Government of the Grand National Assembly undertakes not to build any fortification and not to keep the regular army except the number which is essentially necessary for the maintenance of order and security. Those lines are not in the above-named districts.

ANNEX III
Territory of Nakhichevan

Village of Ourmia, from there by a straight line to the Azerdaian station (leaving it to SSRA), then by a straight line to Ms. Dash-Burun west (3142), watershed of Mt. Dash-Burun east (4108), crosses the river Kyahaanam-Darassi to the south of the inscription "Rodne" (Boulakh) (South), following the watershed of Mt. Bgarsik (6607) or (6587), and from there follows the administrative border of the former districts of Erivan and of Sharur, Daralagyaz, by the elevation 6629 to the mountain Kemurlu Dagh (6839) or (6930), and from there to the elevation 3080, Sayat Dagh (7868), village Kurt Kulag (Kyurt Kulak), Mt. Gamessur Dagh (8160), elevation 8022, Kuri Dagh (10,181), and the eastern administrative border of the former district of Nakhichevan.

Article X
The Contracting Parties agree not to admit upon their territories the formation or sojourn of organizations or groups pretending to assume the role of government of the other country or a part of its territory, nor the sojourn of groups having for their purpose war against the other country. It is clearly understood that the Turkish territory mentioned above in the present Article is the territory under the direct civil and military administration of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey.

[Gavur]

Conference Dedicated to 85th Anniversary of Severes Treaty

YEREVAN (Armenpress)--Parliament deputy chairman Vahan Hovhanesian (ARF) said today the failure of the Allied Powers to implement the Sevres Treaty in the wake of the World War I, was the major cause of instability and volatility in the region, and questioned the validity of the subsequent Moscow and Kars agreements.

He was speaking at a conference dedicated to the 85th anniversary of the Sevres Treaty, and organized by the Igdir and Surmalu compatriatic union.

The Treaty of Sevres between the Allied Powers and the government of Ottoman Turkey, was signed at the end of World War I. It abolished the Ottoman Empire, obliged Turkey to renounce rights over Arab Asia and North Africa, and provided for an independent Armenia, an autonomous Kurdistan, and Greek control over the Aegean islands commanding the Dardanelles. These provisions were rejected by the new Republic of Turkey, and the treaty was replaced in 1923 by the Treaty of Lausanne.

In August 1920, the Treaty of Sevres, signed by England, France, and Turkey, bound Turkey to recognize the independence of Armenia and the Wilsonian boundaries. The new Armenian state was recognized by most of the countries, including the United States. After the triumph of Mustafa Kemal, however, the Turks, with the support of Bolshevik Russia, again attacked the infant Armenian Republic.

On November 29, 1920, Armenia was declared a Soviet state.

On December 1, 1920 as the news about the Sovietization of Armenia reached Azerbaijan, Narimanov, the chief of the Revolutionary Committee of Azerbaijan, in a surprise move, declared that Azerbaijan would stop its claims on Armenian territories, and proclaimed Karabagh, Nakhichevan, and Zankezour, integral parts of Armenia.

However, just a day later, Narimanov's decree was revised: Nakhichevan and Zankezour were recognized as parts of Armenia, whereas Karabagh was given the right of self-determination.

Nonetheless, the strange alliance between the Turks and the Russian Bolsheviks played a fatal role in the final determination of borders. The Treaty of Alexandropol, signed in December of 1920 asserted the defeat of Armenia. Then in March of 1921, Turkey and Russia signed a mysterious Treaty of Moscow to tear Nakhichevan away from Armenia and to attach it to the Soviet Azerbaijan.

In summer of 1921, the Caucasus Office of the Communist Party of Bolsheviks held a number of sessions to resolve the issue of Karabagh. On July 4, the plenary session issued a decree confirming that it belonged to Armenia.

The next day, Stalin convened an extraordinary session and transfered Karabagh to Azerbaijan. The Treaty of Kars, signed in October of 1921, completed the carving-up of Armenia—and reducing its territory to 30,000 square kilometers.

[Kharpert]

Gavur, I think this belongs in the Armenian Genocide News forum...

[Ixtanbul]

The treaty of Sevrés never entered force therefore it has no legality, it doesn't take a genious to figure.

Btw if Armenians are so into invalid treaties how bout the treaty of Gumru (in which the Armenian state practically hands it's sovereignty over to Turkey) ?

Again Armenians acting hypocritical, just as Armenians never talk about the mass murders they commited but only mention the mass murders they suffered now Armenians are only dreaming of bringing pro-Armenian treaties to life and totally neglecting anti-Armenian treaties. There is no end to Armenian hypocrisy...

[Kharpert]

Actually, it was Turkey that refused to recognize the treaty of Sevres. Armenians never followed the provisions of Sevres and were not even mentioned in the treaty of Lausanne, and therefore there is no reason for the Armenians to consider anything in either treaty to relate to their claims and rights.

The Gumru treaty became null and void within a year because Turkey signed the Moscow treaty with the Soviet Union, which gave the regions of Kars and Ardagan back to Armenia. This means that those regions still legally and by treaty belong to Armenia. Most other territorial claims against Turkey, however, have been considered null. This isn't a "pro-Armenian" agreement. it's a written treaty signed by Turkey, Armenia, and the Soviet Union.

Don't mention "Armenian mass murders" unless you have the courage to bring up a single valid example, and stop using empty phrases like "Armenian hypocracy".

[Ixtanbul]

More Armenian bs, the treaty of Sevrés has nothing to do with Turkey. The Ottoman Empire signed the treaty of Sevrés and since the there is no Ottoman Empire it has no legal validity.

About the treaty of Gümrü, it's useless just like the treaty of Sevrés is. But unlike Armenians Turks are smart enough to figure that out.

Treaty of Moscow

(March 16, 1921), pact concluded at Moscow between the nationalist government of Turkey and the Soviet Union that fixed Turkey's northeastern frontier and established friendly relations between the two nations.

With the advent of the Russian Revolution (October 1917), Russia withdrew from World War I and ceased hostilities against the Ottoman Empire. The new Soviet regime found itself allied against the West with the Turkish nationalists, who were fighting against both Western domination and the Ottoman government that had capitulated to the Western Allies. Diplomatic relations between the nationalists and the Soviets began in August 1920 and led to the Treaty of Moscow, which settled border disputes by giving Kars and Ardahan to Turkey and Batumi to Russia and by which the Soviets recognized the nationalist leadership under Mustafa Kemal (later styled Kemal Atatürk) as the only government in Turkey. As a result of the treaty, the Soviets supplied the nationalists with weapons and ammunition, which the Turks used successfully in a war against Greece in 1921–22.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9053890

If every Armenian learnt false history like you did, then no wonder Armenians are filled with hate...

Btw if you want i can start a thread showing documents and pictures of Armenians gangs terrorizing and mass murdering in East Anatolia. After living side to side in peace with Armenians for 900, i'd like to show the Armenians gangs that ended a 900 year old friendship by siding with Russians and massacring the Muslim population of the region...

[Reincarnated Am]

More Armenian bs, the treaty of Sevrés has nothing to do with Turkey. The Ottoman Empire signed the treaty of Sevrés and since the there is no Ottoman Empire it has no legal validity.

About the treaty of Gümrü, it's useless just like the treaty of Sevrés is. But unlike Armenians Turks are smart enough to figure that out.



If every Armenian learnt false history like you did, then no wonder Armenians are filled with hate...

Btw if you want i can start a thread showing documents and pictures of Armenians gangs terrorizing and mass murdering in East Anatolia. After living side to side in peace with Armenians for 900, i'd like to show the Armenians gangs that ended a 900 year old friendship by siding with Russians and massacring the Muslim population of the region...

[Kharpert]

Oh, man.

The Ottoman Empire signed the treaty of Sevrés and since the there is no Ottoman Empire it has no legal validity.

Congratulations, you have demonstrated to everyone that you are blind. The very introduction to the treaty of Sevres reads:

AND TURKEY,

of the other part;

Whereas on the request of the Imperial Ottoman Government an Armistice was granted to Turkey on October 30, 1918, by the Principal Allied Powers in order that a Treaty of Peace might be concluded, and

Whereas the Allied Powers are equally desirous that the war in which certain among them were successively involved, directly or indirectly, against Turkey, and which originated in the declaration of war against Serbia on July 28, I914, by the former Imperial and Royal Austro-Hungarian Government, and in the hostilities opened by Turkey against the Allied Powers on October 29, 1914, and conducted by Germany in alliance with Turkey, should be replaced by a firm, just and durable Peace,

The rest of your post is absolute nonsense. First you bring up the Treaty of Gumru as evidence, then you say that it's useless. Then you take this entire thread totally off topic about Armenian gangs which, quite frankly, no one gives a xxxx about. Then you viciously insult Armenians and call them stupid. We don't tolerate this sort of xxxx around here. Don't post in this thread again.