Treaty of Sevres... can we do anything about it today?

[elendil]

Implementation of Serves Treaty is only unrealistic, ridicolus . If I say we will go to the gates of Wien again I am closer to reality than the claim of Serves today. I personally know nor Turkey neither Armenia is going anywhere. Ofcourse
some people live with dreams.

[Ixtanbul]

Oh, man.

Congratulations, you have demonstrated to everyone that you are blind. The very introduction to the treaty of Sevres reads:

Obviously it's not refering to the Republic of Turkey but the Ottoman Empire. There was no Republic of Turkey in 1920, the Republic of Turkey was formed in 1923!

The rest of your post is absolute nonsense. First you bring up the Treaty of Gumru as evidence, then you say that it's useless.

In my first post i stated if Armenians were so into invalid treaties, they should also be into the treaty of Gümrü. I didn't show anything as evidence.

Then you take this entire thread totally off topic about Armenian gangs which, quite frankly, no one gives a xxxx about.

You said;

Don't mention "Armenian mass murders" unless you have the courage to bring up a single valid example,

Since the Armenians gangs were the ones commiting the mass murders i was refering to them. How was i supposed to know you wouldn't understand, gosh.

Then you viciously insult Armenians and call them stupid. We don't tolerate this sort of xxxx around here. Don't post in this thread again.

I didn't insult anyone or any nation.

[Kharpert]

The Republic of Turkey is a direct continuation of the Ottoman empire, and it has assumed all land and treaties of the governments before it. Don't try to tell anyone that the Republic of Turkey and the Ottoman empire are two separate entities. It has been clearly stated in the Key Distortions and Falsehoods thread:

Alternate Use of the Words "Ottoman" and "Turkish"

In the period in question here, all diplomatic correspondence as well as publications by many historians and political scientists continued the tradition of previous centuries to use the words "Ottoman" and "Turkish," and "Ottoman Empire" and "Turkey" interchangeably; nor were officials and learned men of the Ottoman Empire itself always exempt from this practice. The objection to this practice is in this sense, therefore, unwarranted. Moreover, the ostensible effort to dissociate the Turkish Republic of today as a new and separate entity from the imagery one has about the Ottoman Empire is contradicted by the recent statements of a Turkish Minister of Culture, Istemihan Talay. In an interview with two Turkish journalists he publicly declared that "the Republic of Turkey is the continuation of the Ottoman Empire whose legacy is part of our history." He was speaking on the occasion of the festivities celebrating the 700th anniversary of the founding of the Ottoman Empire. He further stated that "to be embarrassed on account of that empire's legacy is tantamount to denying one's very own being."1

===============
The entire issue of Armenian gangs, Armenian mass murders, or whatever nonsense does NOT belong in this thread. First read this thread before you attempt to discuss anything of the sort, and if you have the gall to bring up the issue again, start a new thread.

Do not call Armenians hypocritical. Do not call Armenians advocates of "false history". Do not say Armenians are filled with hate. Anyone who throws out empty statements like that doesn't last long here.

[Turanist]

Kharpert why you think you are the new boss of forum? in last few days you seem to boss everyone around and even tell Gavur where to posting information. you need to relax and take it easy.

You need to think that Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire like Austria isnt Austro-Hungarian Empire. like Iran isnt Persian Empire. like UK isnt Bristish empire. like Mongolia isnt Mongolian Empire and like Armenia isnt Armenian Empire. Empires is all in the past.

Noone is denying that the Ottoman Empire isnt Turkish Empire. We are saying Turkey doesnot equal Ottoman Empire because Turkey isnt Empire anymore.

Treaty of Sevres is null and void now if you want to still think it isnt and is still valid go ahead and think that but its not going to get you anything.

And when does what a Turkish Minister of Culture, Istemihan Talay say suddenly become valid? Prime Minister Erdogan said that 80% of car crashes in Turkey were due to alcohol but that doesnt mean it is. I hope you understand.

[Kharpert]

I just reminded Gavur that news generally belongs in the Genocide News forum.

The treaty of Sevres may be uninforcable and unrealistic today, but it is the treaty that essentially declared Armenia as an independent state. Every treaty after Sevres, including Lausanne, Gumru, Moscow, or whatever, either did not mention Armenians in any of the articles or arbitrarily cut up Armenian territory without consent of the Armenian government. In a sense, Armenia's acknowledgement of Sevres can be considered a hilarious "xxxx you" to oppressive states, such as the now-destroyed Soviet Union.

I am not as naive to think that any such treaties will get any of Armenia's land back; I've always said we live in a turbulent geopolitical world where agreements can change in a heartbeat. Sevres has never really influenced Armenian policy, but it has affirmed Armenia's existence as an indepedent republic. That affirmation is not found any other treaties.

Also, I would say that the Turkish Minister of Culture is a very high authority on Turkish history.

[Reincarnated Am]

Turkish B/S

More Armenian bs, the treaty of Sevrés has nothing to do with Turkey. The Ottoman Empire signed the treaty of Sevrés and since the there is no Ottoman Empire it has no legal validity.

In one hand Turkey and Turks enjoy the lands and the fortunes they inherited from Ottoman Empire, and they are very proud of their history when it comes to the achievements of that empire, which were all done collectively by all the cultures living in that empire. Then huge crimes were committed against certain people, cutlers, and races by that empire. You cannot just take only the good history and leave the bad history out; you cannot just celebrate empire’s heroes and their heroic achievements and deny their monstrous crimes. If you are proud of what’s Turkey is today, you should also take its history the way it is, and not dissect it and take only what you like and leave out whatever brings shame and dishonor. And even deny those crimes and blame the victims.
This is not a business one day you decide to declare bankruptcy and next day open and run the same business under your wife’s name and under a different business name. Sorry no one but Turks would believe this B/S

Republic of Turkey

[Vogelgrippe]

Kharpert,

I do not know you personally, but from what I read from your postings you seem emphatetic and reasonable. Therefore I wonder why you delve into such a nonsense Sevres topic and try to portray it as a framework for future reference. Is it too hard to understand that it is exactly this kind of attitude which aggravates & pushes off conscienscious Turkish people who believe in genocide, but are sceptical of Armenian intentions which go beyond recognition.

[Kharpert]

Actually, I said the opposite. I said that Sevres has no effect on future policy, just as the rest of the treaties signed thereafter, and I don't believe any treaty will get Armenia any of its land back. What I did say, however, was that Armenia's existence as an independent republic, which it is today, is affirmed in the treaty of Sevres.

[Vogelgrippe]

1)

The Gumru treaty became null and void within a year because Turkey signed the Moscow treaty with the Soviet Union, which gave the regions of Kars and Ardagan back to Armenia. This means that those regions still legally and by treaty belong to Armenia. Most other territorial claims against Turkey, however, have been considered null. This isn't a "pro-Armenian" agreement. it's a written treaty signed by Turkey, Armenia, and the Soviet Union.

2)

The treaty of Sevres may be uninforcable and unrealistic today, but it is the treaty that essentially declared Armenia as an independent state. Every treaty after Sevres, including Lausanne, Gumru, Moscow, or whatever, either did not mention Armenians in any of the articles or arbitrarily cut up Armenian territory without consent of the Armenian government. In a sense, Armenia's acknowledgement of Sevres can be considered a hilarious "xxxx you" to oppressive states, such as the now-destroyed Soviet Union.

I am not as naive to think that any such treaties will get any of Armenia's land back; I've always said we live in a turbulent geopolitical world where agreements can change in a heartbeat. Sevres has never really influenced Armenian policy, but it has affirmed Armenia's existence as an indepedent republic. That affirmation is not found any other treaties.
posite.

Sorry, I referred to your second statement instead of referring to the first one. Still, you should realize that Kars and Ardahan legally belongs to Turkey and your respective statement was wrong. I have not much to add to Kemal's post #21 on this thread, so hopefully you will realize about being misinformed on this issue.

The reason I am participating in that kind of dispute is to show that talking about genocide and Turkey's moral obligations is one thing, making irredentist claims on Turkish soil is another. While most conscientious Turks, including myself, are rather on your side on the first issue, we are totally dedicated to the protection of the provinces which are claimed by chauvenistic Armenians.

It seriously makes me sad to see that some Armenian sources create anti-Turkish falsehood which sometimes overshadow even Turkey's real misdeeds and historical mistakes.It looks like even genocide is not sufficient in order to make Armenians hate Turks. Just to eliminate the risk that some Armenians might develop positive relations, or at least dialogs with Turks, additional hate-material is prepared continuously. Like these invented or misinterpreted provisions in the treaties, Turkey is further demonised, and Turks who mean well are further aggravated.

So now, does this attitude gives any credibility to the claim that Armenians are only interested in genocide recognition by Turkey? As an individual, I can think whatever I want about the genocide, and recognize it because my conscience would't allow me to act otherwise. But what about a patriotic Turkish statesman? Can/should he admit, facing the indoctrinated, falsely informed, unconditionally Turk-hating Armenians, anything at all? I think he can't and he should'nt.

[Reincarnated Am]

Turkish B.S.

Originally Posted by Ixtanbul
More Armenian bs, the treaty of Sevrés has nothing to do with Turkey. The Ottoman Empire signed the treaty of Sevrés and since the there is no Ottoman Empire it has no legal validity.

In one hand Turkey and Turks enjoy the lands and the fortunes they inherited from Ottoman Empire, and they are very proud of their history when it comes to the achievements of that empire, which were all done collectively by all the cultures living in that empire. Then huge crimes were committed against certain people, cutlers, and races by that empire. You cannot just take only the good history and leave the bad history out; you cannot just celebrate empire’s heroes and their heroic achievements and deny their monstrous crimes. If you are proud of what’s Turkey is today, you should also take its history the way it is, and not dissect it and take only what you like and leave out whatever brings shame and dishonor. And even deny those crimes and blame the victims.
This is not a business one day you decide to declare bankruptcy and next day open and run the same business under your wife’s name and under a different business name. Sorry no one but Turks would believe this B/S

Republic of Turkey

'Turks have been European for 600 Years'

By Erkan Acar, Istanbul
Published: Monday, January 02, 2006
zaman.com


It was an important step forward for the European Union (EU) to keep its promise to start negotiations on 3 October 2005, said Gen. Hilmi Ozkok, Turkey’s Chief of General Staff.

“Turks have been European since the time that the Ottomans set foot in Rumelia,” said Ozkok, asserting the Turkish contribution to Europe.

“From the time when the Ottomans first set foot in Europe, Turks developed their own European identity, and this dates back nearly 600 years,” Ozkok told a magazine titled “Unity,” a publication of the Turkish Retired Military Officers’ Association.

The Turkish Republic was established under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, and in a very short time, Ozkok said, it brought the entire Turkish nation together under the umbrella of values such as democracy, human rights, secularism and the rule of law that are also championed in the West. “The Contemporary European Values are Turkey’s values as well,” said the Chief of the General Staff, and Turkey, which is a country with an especially significant geographical position and assimilations of western values, is already European even if it is not an EU member.

The Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) did not hinder the process of membership, said Gen. Huseyin Kivrikoglu, the Chief of the General Staff, at the time Turkey was granted the nomination for a full-membership to the EU in 1999.

There is no truth about the notion that the TSK and Kemalism are an obstacle to the EU membership of Turkey, Kivrikoglu told Fikret Bila of Milliyet daily newspaper.

Turkey should be able to be a self-respecting, formal and full member country of the EU, highlighted Kivrikoglu.

“The TSK has never raised an objection to the target of full EU membership. It is wrong to project it as an obstacle. What we have said at certain times, however, was that Turkey should not compromise the unity nation and territory during its membership attempts. Our statements were focused on the sincerity of Europe. The EU should avoid resorting to the use of double standards. That is what I mean by the phrase self-respecting membership. For this reason, the actual problem or hindrance cannot be blamed on the TSK but the EU approach.”

In the meantime, an article titled “The March of Turkish Army towards Europe” appeared in the magazine of Foreign Affairs, by Ersin Aydinli, Ali Ozcan and Dogan Akyaz.

The article focused on the TSK’s positive attitude towards the EU.

“The senior officials of the General Staff know that the EU would provide them with the perfect opportunity of fighting against Islamic fundamentalism and segregationist terrorism. The TSK would like to observe that the EU process is irreversible and we know that if there is a possibility that the process will does not end in full-membership to the EU, the task of reuniting the country will fall to its responsibility.”

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=national&alt=&hn=28213