Questions for Turks

[ScythianVizier]

The fact that Armenians had a long and extremely peaceful co-exsitance within the Ottoman Empire and were in fact citizens and at least junior partners with the Turks - and who were largely an unarmed population - not at all in open warfare with the Ottoman Empire (in fact they were overwhelmingly loyal and working within the stritures of such) - as Cicassians had been with the Russians - and that entrusted their safety and security and well being to the governing EMpire - an Empire which had signed international treaties to the effect that it would ensure the well being and not harm these people - then such an Empire conducted a deliberate and deceptive campaign of annihilation of these people - well - the Armenian situation has a unique history and the harshness of the measures and overwhelming destructiveness and the specific history (incl;uding earlier persecutions and massacres) are entirely worthy of being considered seperatly in addition to understanding it within the context of other related event sof the times and preceeding.

On the one hand, Armenians had a long term relationship with the Turks though interrupted and corrupted by the rise of nationalism following the French Revolution in 1789. On the other hand, Russians and Circassians had no such relations at all. Russians had never been to Caucasus prior to 19th Century, and Circassia was not part of their empire. Since the Russians used to ban Islam within their empire, the Circassian resistance turned out to be critical, in terms of ensuring their own existance as a muslim community. Nevertheless, it was the Ottomans who protected the Circassians as much as they could, and the migration waves from Caucasus occurred throughout 19th Century did only escalate the tensions between the Christians and Muslims, but also helped to profilerate the horror stories about the "Brutal Christians" within all regions of the empire.

As you might also know the relations between Armenians and the Turks roots back as early as 6th Century as far as I recall. Thus, it could be said that the Armenians were not slaughtered in the Ottoman Empire prior to 19th Century. Thus, proliferation of Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire was evident in many cities, including the ones that did not historically belong to the Armenians. Furthermore, I am not going to go through the "Loyal Millet" issue, but I will point out the facts of integration of Ottoman Armenians as an "elite community" which were not despised by any means, but appreciated in most of the cases, even by the Sultan himself. That is why, perhaps many Armenians still speak Turkish or bear names that have Turkish meanings. There used to be Armenian papers printed with Armenian Alphabet, but articulated in Turkish. Literature, architecture, trade, and production were some of the areas Armenians were specilized and actively participated. However, changes of the political climate of the 19th and early 20th Centuries and the impact of external conflicts of the empire changed the structure of this relationship dractically. Russian invention and the inclusion of Russia as the protector of the Ottoman Armenians only made things worse since Armenians were literally existed in every part of the empire (which meant endless opportunities for Russia whenever they wish to interveine internal affairs of the empire), and the Russian policies towards the Ottoman Empire was not friendly at all.

The fact that it became a cause celeb among citizens of Western nations and their governments and the fact that justice was called for but never fully enacted and the fact that the Governemnt of Turkey and the Turks to this day so vehemently deny and teach their children to deny etc - makes it an event that deserves its spotlight and that needs to be understood - on its own - agaoin - in addition to understanding the other similar events and trials and tribulations expereicned by other peoples (including Turks, Circassians, Greeks, Kurds, Assyrians etc) - as well as these events need to be understood within the larger context of Genocide and Democide and along with such clash of culture and state sponsored destructions of native cultures of the Americas and Africa - such as the incredible destructiveness of ther slave trade itself and how it decimated West African culture and socites and whose effects are profound even to this day. So OK - I agree - lets not be ignorant.

I believe that one thing leads to another. In that respect, I would like to conclude that well established emperialistic schemes hatched for the Ottoman Empire sealed, not only the fate of Armenians, but also sealed the fate of the Circassians as well as had an impact over many others ethnicities living closer to each other within the former lands of the Ottoman Empire.

Was there only one genocide or were there a series of genocides? Perhaps, your prespective can not have any other outcome since it is very similar to what I think of when I think of the expulsion of the Circassians out of Caucasus. However, I dont have the luxury for only protecting the rights of Circassians or the rights of Armenians when it comes to admitting the truth behind those crimes executed. In a sense, I have to mention the existance of a broader scale tragedy that includes other ethnicites on top of the Armenians, Circassians, Tatars or Turks. In my opinion, this results from the emperialistic schemes designed for the Ottoman Empire arisen from the destructive side of the western world, just like many other contemporary notions were evolved from the constructive (productive) side of their culture. However, one can not accept the ones he/she wishes when denying the ones that might contradict his/her own status in the world, and that is what the Westerners should focus on rather than passing laws through their parliaments recognizing only the tragedy of the Armenians.

And in fact by your vigorous denials of our pain and of the truth you are being an apolgist for the CUP - so stop it already - OK.

I never felt sympathy for CUP, so why should I be the one protecting their wrongful policies?

Thanks, but I dont think so.

No it was not - but how did these things start - who were the real instigators and why...let me tell you the blame lies not with the Western powers nor with the indigenous Christian groups. Aditionally the type of government sponsored mass round up and killing of people occured to the Ottoman Armenians only...and this is what constitutes the crimes of genocide that you are denying - not that there might have been massacres and counter massacres in some locations. Also much of these stories such as your grandmothers - as they concern Armenians - in fact concern revenge killings that occured after the Genocide. And these are of course very sad and unfortunate - and I offer no excuse to say that murder is not murder and such - but these were desperate people who had seen atrocities and murders and all of their family killed etc - by Turks....

Well, I dont deny killings or I dont attempt to despise the ordeal experienced by the Armenians. As you might understand, I deny the crippled concepts that would not help to build a better future for all of us. I am not someone who bears the mindset of an 19th Century man, nor am I someone sharing or sympathizing the nationalistic policies of CUP. However, I am someone trying to point out the other side of the coin that is being neglected, and I dont think that I would feel sorry for that.

PS: To be continued

[ScythianVizier]

Thanks for the website, I send them a letter questioning their sources, when they answer me , I'll let you know. There statistics are almost all wrong.

No worries and thank you.

[1.5 million]

Sythian - I don't have time for a detailed response to you rigt now - but let me say a few things. I still see you - absolutly - as an apologist for the CUP - and in fact it is clear that you will make any excuse to not allow Turkey to be seen in abad light in any way. That there have been other massacres - even genocides in the world - in addition to that COMMITED BY THE TURKS AGAINST THE ARMENIANS (that you and other Tueks still can't seem to admit happened without excuse after excuse and attempting to pass the blame ) - well that is most sad. I am not denying any of these other tragedies, nor am I denying linkage with certain persecutions and expulsions of Turkics from various places - as a contributor to the developments of Turkiish/Muslim (elite/emigree etc) attitudes (hate, paranoia, fear etc) and perhaps willingness to take extreme measures...however what I reject is that in any way these things obviate Turkish responsibility for the Genocide of Armenians and that there could truly be any rational/acceptable justification for taking such barbaric and extreme actions against any group of people. I likewise feel that the Europeans deserve full scrutiny for thei past actions....however this is a forum for and this issue is the Armenian Genocide. We can talk all day about how Mao slaughtered tens of millions of Chinese - and yes it is interesting and yes there are perhaps lessons and relations to this issue - that of the Armenian Genocide - but to constantly focus on these other - tangentally related events - is IMO - primarily a tactic to avoid dealing with the facts of the issue at hand - and the fact that Armenians are demanding recognition. If you stole something from me - or stabbed me with a knife - and I ask for your apology - the last thing I really want to hear is that some other person once kicked you or that you know someone else who was stabbed and they never got an apology - do you understand my point?

Likewise I find that your focus on Western Imperialist machinations and by implication Armenian nationalist ambitions as rational/blame for Genocide - as opposed to the dynamics of falling Empire, revolution and (domestic? for lack of a better word) ethnic/religious issues - to likewise be a bit of a cop out - or illustrative of your inability to understand some of the real and true dynamics that have caused this genocideal situation. I do not discount that these other elements you focus on are part of the equation - however I see them as secondary. And to blame (the Genocide on) Western Powers or Russia - again - no dice. Armenians were killed by Turks and Kurds under orders from the CUP/Ottoman government - this is where the blame lies. Beyond this - of course - we need to examine and understand all environmental facots and dynamics - however by focusing on these wider events and these external things - again we are missing the specific dynamics that cme into play to allow for such a thing as the Armenian Genocide - a total domestic genocide - which - even given the seeming long list of genocidal events from prior centuries etc - is still a somwhat rare and unusual thing that does not occur everyday. (I could go on much more here - but I think I have made my point for now)

Also - you continue to attemt to lessen the severity of the Genocide to Armenains. You bring up examples of other such things and say they were worse etc. Again I reject this contention. I am not rejecting that terrible crimes and suffering occured to/by others - however you obviously fail to understand the severity of the Armenian Genocide - and the fact that such total destruction occured primarily in the space of several months to a years time and that reality for Anatolian Armenians and the Armenian nation went to hell most completely and that the Armenian people suffered - to some degree - as no others in history have done and the impact on them and on the nation was as great or greater then anything that has ever occured in history. Understand and admit this - and perhaps you might actually feel sorry - as my perception is that you (and a great many Turks) do not.

Of course hate is a pre-condition. However eternal hate is not required - though I absolutly do not reject that it could certainly be a mitigating factor - who could deny such a thing? However if you examine the literature of what was occuring in Ottoman society and you look at the progression of events you can see how the hate for and degradation of the Armenians in the eyes of the Turks occured - and relatively quickly....bad times and an influx of people pre-disposed against any Christians and jealosy and seeing the group as "other" have a way of doing that. In this regard the Armenians were very much like the Jews and they were villified and very nearly identicle ways (hey I'm not making this up - this is the documented history). And again - while I still contend (consitent with Jewish Holocaust scholars) that Jews in Germany were well integrated into the German society - and much more so then elsewhwere in Europe - they obviously were still seen as "different" - mainly due to practice of their religion and the fact that they themselves set themselves apart as Jewsih people and observed different practices etc (again same as the Armenians). In each case the revolutionary ruling elites focused on the relatively prosperous urbanized elements of the minority communities as a focus of their animosity and as proof of their being a foriegn element not consistent with the standard peasent origins of the majority people (all built inot their party worldview from early on). In the German case this tied in with their anti-communism as well. Its funny that in each case this view neglected the fact that the majority of Armenians and Jews were in fact quite poor and living in very traditional peasent capacities (though Jews were perhaps primarily urban). Anyway - the dynamics of the backlash (hatred) against each group is surprisingly similar.

And in fact there is a great deal of evidence that the Nazi party was highly influenced by (and membership of the inner party circle consited of a high degree of) Germans who had gained life forming experiences while serving in Turkey during WWI - so yes - based on specific writings and statements - awareness of (succesful) the CUP policies regarding the Armenians was clearly a large factor in the formation of Nazi ideology in regards to cleansing of Jews and moving of other uindesirebles off coveted lands to place Germans. In fatc the Germans themselves influenced CUP/Ottoman thinking in this regard in the first place (and proposed supplanting Greeks and Armenians with Germans...as Turks were not thought to have what it took to fulfil the same mercantile and specilist societal roles...)...but that is another discussion.

[ScythianVizier]

Sythian - I don't have time for a detailed response to you rigt now - but let me say a few things. I still see you - absolutly - as an apologist for the CUP - and in fact it is clear that you will make any excuse to not allow Turkey to be seen in abad light in any way. That there have been other massacres - even genocides in the world - in addition to that COMMITED BY THE TURKS AGAINST THE ARMENIANS (that you and other Tueks still can't seem to admit happened without excuse after excuse and attempting to pass the blame ) - well that is most sad. I am not denying any of these other tragedies, nor am I denying linkage with certain persecutions and expulsions of Turkics from various places - as a contributor to the developments of Turkiish/Muslim (elite/emigree etc) attitudes (hate, paranoia, fear etc) and perhaps willingness to take extreme measures...however what I reject is that in any way these things obviate Turkish responsibility for the Genocide of Armenians and that there could truly be any rational/acceptable justification for taking such barbaric and extreme actions against any group of people. I likewise feel that the Europeans deserve full scrutiny for thei past actions....however this is a forum for and this issue is the Armenian Genocide. We can talk all day about how Mao slaughtered tens of millions of Chinese - and yes it is interesting and yes there are perhaps lessons and relations to this issue - that of the Armenian Genocide - but to constantly focus on these other - tangentally related events - is IMO - primarily a tactic to avoid dealing with the facts of the issue at hand - and the fact that Armenians are demanding recognition. If you stole something from me - or stabbed me with a knife - and I ask for your apology - the last thing I really want to hear is that some other person once kicked you or that you know someone else who was stabbed and they never got an apology - do you understand my point?

Likewise I find that your focus on Western Imperialist machinations and by implication Armenian nationalist ambitions as rational/blame for Genocide - as opposed to the dynamics of falling Empire, revolution and (domestic? for lack of a better word) ethnic/religious issues - to likewise be a bit of a cop out - or illustrative of your inability to understand some of the real and true dynamics that have caused this genocideal situation. I do not discount that these other elements you focus on are part of the equation - however I see them as secondary. And to blame (the Genocide on) Western Powers or Russia - again - no dice. Armenians were killed by Turks and Kurds under orders from the CUP/Ottoman government - this is where the blame lies. Beyond this - of course - we need to examine and understand all environmental facots and dynamics - however by focusing on these wider events and these external things - again we are missing the specific dynamics that cme into play to allow for such a thing as the Armenian Genocide - a total domestic genocide - which - even given the seeming long list of genocidal events from prior centuries etc - is still a somwhat rare and unusual thing that does not occur everyday. (I could go on much more here - but I think I have made my point for now)

Also - you continue to attemt to lessen the severity of the Genocide to Armenains. You bring up examples of other such things and say they were worse etc. Again I reject this contention. I am not rejecting that terrible crimes and suffering occured to/by others - however you obviously fail to understand the severity of the Armenian Genocide - and the fact that such total destruction occured primarily in the space of several months to a years time and that reality for Anatolian Armenians and the Armenian nation went to hell most completely and that the Armenian people suffered - to some degree - as no others in history have done and the impact on them and on the nation was as great or greater then anything that has ever occured in history. Understand and admit this - and perhaps you might actually feel sorry - as my perception is that you (and a great many Turks) do not.

Of course hate is a pre-condition. However eternal hate is not required - though I absolutly do not reject that it could certainly be a mitigating factor - who could deny such a thing? However if you examine the literature of what was occuring in Ottoman society and you look at the progression of events you can see how the hate for and degradation of the Armenians in the eyes of the Turks occured - and relatively quickly....bad times and an influx of people pre-disposed against any Christians and jealosy and seeing the group as "other" have a way of doing that. In this regard the Armenians were very much like the Jews and they were villified and very nearly identicle ways (hey I'm not making this up - this is the documented history). And again - while I still contend (consitent with Jewish Holocaust scholars) that Jews in Germany were well integrated into the German society - and much more so then elsewhwere in Europe - they obviously were still seen as "different" - mainly due to practice of their religion and the fact that they themselves set themselves apart as Jewsih people and observed different practices etc (again same as the Armenians). In each case the revolutionary ruling elites focused on the relatively prosperous urbanized elements of the minority communities as a focus of their animosity and as proof of their being a foriegn element not consistent with the standard peasent origins of the majority people (all built inot their party worldview from early on). In the German case this tied in with their anti-communism as well. Its funny that in each case this view neglected the fact that the majority of Armenians and Jews were in fact quite poor and living in very traditional peasent capacities (though Jews were perhaps primarily urban). Anyway - the dynamics of the backlash (hatred) against each group is surprisingly similar.

And in fact there is a great deal of evidence that the Nazi party was highly influenced by (and membership of the inner party circle consited of a high degree of) Germans who had gained life forming experiences while serving in Turkey during WWI - so yes - based on specific writings and statements - awareness of (succesful) the CUP policies regarding the Armenians was clearly a large factor in the formation of Nazi ideology in regards to cleansing of Jews and moving of other uindesirebles off coveted lands to place Germans. In fatc the Germans themselves influenced CUP/Ottoman thinking in this regard in the first place (and proposed supplanting Greeks and Armenians with Germans...as Turks were not thought to have what it took to fulfil the same mercantile and specilist societal roles...)...but that is another discussion.

I am not an apologist for CUP. As I told you previously, I spare no sympathy for any nationalistic movements including the Turkish and the Armenian ones. Respectfully, I dont discount any sort of pain, suffering, and ordeal that the Armenians experienced in the past, or have been experiencing at present. Same applies to any other nations who went through painful experiences related to the history of mankind.

Nevertheless, it seems to me as if you wish to see people agree on certain boolean operators, such as "true" or "false". Unfortunately, human life does not progress that way, and I hope that you would realize it one or the other way.

Thanks for the enlighting discussion anyway.

[maral_m79]

That figures its a Christian Missionary website of course its full of errors.

This one, Yes .. Full of errors

[maral_m79]

Go ahead.

No.

No.

Why am I "Schizophrenic"? Is it because I have decided to promote separatism in Iran?

First of all, do you know what does that word mean ? I guess you do.
So if you understood that word you'll know what I'm talking about ... I could've just said "Silly" or "Nuts" or "Crazy" without T

So again, I will ask you nicely ... and I hope that this time you'll have the courage to response with the Truth ....

Does Crazy T use UKTurk's account to particepate in the conversation on this forum ? and how much he does ?

I have "Good" reasons to ask this question, just be man enough to answer "Honestly" !!!

[imported_crazy]

This is that donkey I was talking about

awesome....nice one