Questions for Turks

[TurQ]

1.5 Million
you do not have to believe me. THis was told by my great grand dad. He witnessed these in first hand. I do not remember reading any Turkish resources telling this. It is entirely upto you believing or not believing what my Great grand dad told. We are not talking about a few deaths, hundreds and hundreds, in some cases they used chemical materials or poison their water/food.

I am not telling to justify deportations, this just shows there was connections between Anatolian Armenians and Russians. You can justify this becuase it was war time, and those Armenians in the army feared their lives etc etc. THis could be the case, I am not disputing it. As I said perceptions played a great role in escalation of those events.

TurQ - OK - I understand your points - but really I don't quite buy them per se. This issue of Turkish soldiers being killed in the night by poisoing etc - come now - give me a break - this happens night after night - and Armenians are blamed (but noe aprently caught) - etc - I don't buy it at all. This is propoganda...there were calims of Armenain bakers poising food of Turkish troops during this time and whole groups of Armenian bakers were slaughtered before it was determined that these charges were just untrue...and you know Turkish soldiers kept dying...something called typhoid may be an explanation - I don't know - but perhaps youmay want to consider...eh?

So Antranik didn't like and fought against Turks -OK - I guess this justifys killing every Armenian women and child after delibertly taking all the men away (and kiliing them seperatly). Yeah OK

The reasons for the animosity (rational or otherwise) against the Armenains by Turks are well known and well documented. Do you relly think we are just making these things up? There is extensive anti-Armenian racist literature and much else...anyway - OK - I am awaiting your next series of excuses/justifications...oi

[1.5 million]

TurQ - again you seem to be attempting to justify the Genocide of Armenians - as if there was not enough room in Anatolia for all - thus Armenians had to go. I don't buy it. And while I understand Turkish/Muslim suffering during and around this period - again - the CUP (and perhaps the Sultans before) are deserving of far more blame for this then either the Armenains (certainly) or even the Russians - think about it really...and while Anatolain Turks did die during the war in great numbers - the amount who died by being killed by Russians or Armenian was dwarfed by those who died strictly because of disease and starvation (again I blame the CUP for fostering such conditions - killing off and driving away Armenian farmers, overdrafting all males during harvest in 1914 which would have been a bounty year - and all the dead Armenians left everywhere caused the disease epideminc). And in war soldiers get killed - don't blame Sakarmish on Armenians - etc - please... And I'm going to say it again - because you are seemingly refusing to understand - The CUP enacted a deliberate policy to annhilate the Armenains and they carried out such a policy under the guise of WWI - this was not done for any real military necessity - and even the political motivations are somewhat dubious - even if oone can say yes there was a rationale behind it - it was still an inhumane and twisted solution and cannot be forgiven -and yes - what the Armenians experienced was unlike - in severity - in absolute government sponsored and intentioned - deliberate killing en mass - then what any other group experienced during these time. It was Genodie pure and simple. The fact that you and other Turks refuse to accept this - in the face of all evidence - continues to be highly troubling - and you canoot really expect us to cry about Muslim deaths or such during this period when you continue to show the extreme insenistivity and refusal to accept the facts of this matter.

[1.5 million]

1.5 Million
you do not have to believe me. THis was told by my great grand dad. He witnessed these in first hand. I do not remember reading any Turkish resources telling this. It is entirely upto you believing or not believing what my Great grand dad told. We are not talking about a few deaths, hundreds and hundreds, in some cases they used chemical materials or poison their water/food.

I am not telling to justify deportations, this just shows there was connections between Anatolian Armenians and Russians. You can justify this becuase it was war time, and those Armenians in the army feared their lives etc etc. THis could be the case, I am not disputing it. As I said perceptions played a great role in escalation of those events.

I think your grand dad was guilible and ready to believe anything negative about the Armenians - there was much hysteria during these times and Armenians became an easy scapegoat. To think that Armenians could have gotten away with poioning hundreds of Turkish soldiers in Turkish army camps is really an absurd notion - totally and utterly unbleivable. If it happend once then measure would have been enacted to ensure it wouldn't happen again - come now...

[TurQ]

1.5 Million

I am not disputing on which word should be used to describe these events.
As I said before by just looking at the results(even though I dont accept 1.5 million as a number) you can use the Genocide word. And As I said before if I were Armenian I felt same what you guys feel.

I was telling all these because I thought you were interested in hearing personal experiences. I am not jsutifying anything. I am trying to approach these events in a sociological perspective.

May be this is 3rd or 4th time, for me killing one innocent is to kill all humanity. Justifying these killing is same as commiting this crime.

TurQ - OK - I understand your points - but really I don't quite buy them per se. This issue of Turkish soldiers being killed in the night by poisoing etc - come now - give me a break - this happens night after night - and Armenians are blamed (but noe aprently caught) - etc - I don't buy it at all. This is propoganda...there were calims of Armenain bakers poising food of Turkish troops during this time and whole groups of Armenian bakers were slaughtered before it was determined that these charges were just untrue...and you know Turkish soldiers kept dying...something called typhoid may be an explanation - I don't know - but perhaps youmay want to consider...eh?

So Antranik didn't like and fought against Turks -OK - I guess this justifys killing every Armenian women and child after delibertly taking all the men away (and kiliing them seperatly). Yeah OK

The reasons for the animosity (rational or otherwise) against the Armenains by Turks are well known and well documented. Do you relly think we are just making these things up? There is extensive anti-Armenian racist literature and much else...anyway - OK - I am awaiting your next series of excuses/justifications...oi

[1.5 million]

(even though I dont accept 1.5 million as a number)

Did your grandfather tell you differently?

I'm sorry to say it this way - but really now...

[1.5 million]

I was telling all these because I thought you were interested in hearing personal experiences. I am not jsutifying anything. I am trying to approach these events in a sociological perspective.

May be this is 3rd or 4th time, for me killing one innocent is to kill all humanity. Justifying these killing is same as commiting this crime.

OK - yes there is value in you sharing your grandfather's experiences and thoughts and your (Turkish) perspectives - I understand that many/most Armenians are clueless concerning many of the things you speak and why....but just the same - much comes accross as justifications - and I cannot accept that. Also much continues to come accross as insensitivity to our losses and rejection of our experiences...so how can you expect us to react positively to what you are presenting...?

[TurQ]

He was telling what he saw/witnessed.

And it is upto you not to buy it. This is why I am hessitant to talk about my own family experience. You guys are insulted when you hear/read these. And I feel insulted those accusation for my gread grand dad. YOu are pretty much quick to jump conclusions.

I leave it to Armenians(if they are interested) in general to understand or learn what did the ordinary people felt/experienced/percieved in those days.

I am not telling this to lessen your pain, I am not telling these to insult you or any other Armenian. I think this is second time that I have broken my word not to be in this kind of discussion.

I think your grand dad was guilible and ready to believe anything negative about the Armenians - there was much hysteria during these times and Armenians became an easy scapegoat. To think that Armenians could have gotten away with poioning hundreds of Turkish soldiers in Turkish army camps is really an absurd notion - totally and utterly unbleivable. If it happend once then measure would have been enacted to ensure it wouldn't happen again - come now...

[TurQ]

No he didnt say anything about any number.
He was a simple soldier, he did not knew about politics or knew what was going on in a larger scale.

What I say is again thru my own rsources either my family or friends's families. I know about Armenian dead bodies(villagers) on the path to farms. I know about a particular Armeian village in Bingol. All rsidents are either killed or deported, even their apple trees were cut, the bridge that they built was destroyed just because Armenians built that bridge. You guys already know about these events, so I dont tell them. You said you were intersted in what my own ancestors experienced, I told them

Did your grandfather tell you differently?

I'm sorry to say it this way - but really now...

[TurQ]

1.5 Million
I dont understand this, really, sincerely.

Does my or other Turkish and Muslim sufferings need to lessen your sufferings? I am not blaming you, sincerely this happens to me too, whenever I hear Armenians saying "Turks did this to us etc" I react and say what about my sufferings? I dont think it is true, I also blame myself.

Our sufferings need to lessen your pain, or vice versa?

OK - yes there is value in you sharing your grandfather's experiences and thoughts and your (Turkish) perspectives - I understand that many/most Armenians are clueless concerning many of the things you speak and why....but just the same - much comes accross as justifications - and I cannot accept that. Also much continues to come accross as insensitivity to our losses and rejection of our experiences...so how can you expect us to react positively to what you are presenting...?

[TurQ]

1.5 I think I have mentioned numerous times I am not trying to justify anything.

One more thing I already blamed CUP entering the war Sarikamis and other disasters. I have said ordinary Armenians became scapegoats. I dont know why you keep on saying these.

I dont also say thee was no enough room for everybody in Anatolia. You see how perceptions play great role even today between us, in this very simple exchange of ideas?

I thought it should be clear by now, in my postings that, in those times people feared that what had happened in Balkans and Caucusia will happen in Anatolia. With those refugees coming into Anatolia, it was percieved that Anatolia is the only safe place. The Russian intervention in Anatolia specifically their interest in Armenians fueled this fear, the loss of only safe haven. Thats why Armenians became targets, they have been percieved as threat, and scapegoats of those threats and CUP failures.

You are again diving into the discussion who was right who was wrong who should be blamed or not. I am saying that the percention of threat played great role in those events. WHy do you think this is a justification?

DO I need to mention my position on and on everytime ?

TurQ - again you seem to be attempting to justify the Genocide of Armenians - as if there was not enough room in Anatolia for all - thus Armenians had to go. I don't buy it. And while I understand Turkish/Muslim suffering during and around this period - again - the CUP (and perhaps the Sultans before) are deserving of far more blame for this then either the Armenains (certainly) or even the Russians - think about it really...and while Anatolain Turks did die during the war in great numbers - the amount who died by being killed by Russians or Armenian was dwarfed by those who died strictly because of disease and starvation (again I blame the CUP for fostering such conditions - killing off and driving away Armenian farmers, overdrafting all males during harvest in 1914 which would have been a bounty year - and all the dead Armenians left everywhere caused the disease epideminc). And in war soldiers get killed - don't blame Sakarmish on Armenians - etc - please... And I'm going to say it again - because you are seemingly refusing to understand - The CUP enacted a deliberate policy to annhilate the Armenains and they carried out such a policy under the guise of WWI - this was not done for any real military necessity - and even the political motivations are somewhat dubious - even if oone can say yes there was a rationale behind it - it was still an inhumane and twisted solution and cannot be forgiven -and yes - what the Armenians experienced was unlike - in severity - in absolute government sponsored and intentioned - deliberate killing en mass - then what any other group experienced during these time. It was Genodie pure and simple. The fact that you and other Turks refuse to accept this - in the face of all evidence - continues to be highly troubling - and you canoot really expect us to cry about Muslim deaths or such during this period when you continue to show the extreme insenistivity and refusal to accept the facts of this matter.