Questions for Turks

[1.5 million]

You see people Kemal is actually right he said "Turkey has the greatest Army in the region." Turkeys biggest threat is Iran but the Iran-Iraq war back in the 1980's showed that Iraq a country with about a third of Iran fought Iran to a deadlock situation that lasted 8 years. So I would actually say that Turkey definately has the strongest Army in the region.

Plus we get advanced military hardware off Israel due to our military ties and cooperation. They informed us about Ocalan whereabouts in Kenya we sent in our special forces and the rest is as they say history.

THE TURKISH LAND FORCES :

LAND FORCES COMPOSITION IS

* 4 FIELD ARMIES
* 10 ARMY CORPS
* 2 MECH. INF. DIVISION
* 2 MECH. INF. DIV. HQs (TACTICAL)
* 1 INFANTRY DIVISIONS AND 1 TRAINING DIVISION
* 14 MECHANIZED INFANTRY BRIGADES
* 14 ARMORED BRIGADES
* 12 INFANTRY/REGIONAL SEC. BRIGADES
* 5 COMMANDO BRIGADES
* 5 TRAINING BRIGADES

THE TURKISH LAND FORCES IS ORGANIZED INTO FOUR FIELD ARMIES, LOGISTICS COMMAND AND TRAINING AND DOCTRINE COMMAND.

THE COMPOSITION OF THE NAVAL FORCES IS;

* 13 SUBMARINES
* 20 FRIGATES
* 21 FAST PATROL BOATS
* 21 MINE SWEEPERS / HUNTERS AND LAYERS
* 52 VARIOUS LANDING SHIPS / CRAFT
* 23 VARIOUS MARITIME PATROL AIRCRAFT / HELICOPTER
* AMPHIBIOUS BRIGADE

SUBORDINATE COMMANDS OF THE TURKISH NAVAL FORCES COMMAND ARE THE FLEET COMMAND, THE NORTHERN SEA AREA COMMAND, THE SOUTHERN SEA AREA COMMAND AND THE NAVAL TRAINING AND EDUCATION COMMAND.

THE TURKISH AIR FORCES COMPONENTS ARE;

* 19 COMBAT SQUADRONS
* 2 RECONNAISSANCESQUADRONS
* 5 TRAINING SQUADRONS
* 6 TRANSPORTATION SQUADRONS
* 1 TANKER SQUADRON
* 8 SURFACE TO AIR MISSILE (SAM) SQUADRONS

THESE UNITS ARE ORGANIZED INTO TWO TACTICAL AIR FORCES, TWO MAIN AIR LIFT BASES, TANKER BASE, AIR TRAINING AND AIR LOGISTICS COMMANDS.

I hope for your sake that you Turkeys have all been inoculated against the bird flu.. ..amazing the power of little microbes that cannot be seen...and how irrelevant such things can make all the bright metal and steel and explosive dust and whirly birds and such...I hope you get the gist of my point and maybe think to tone down your misguided and rather amusing national pride in what are really pretty pathetic and irrelevant peices of hardware...in the grand scheme of things...

[1.5 million]

Infact didn't the Armenians expell over 800,000 Azerbaijani's from their homes.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/aj.html

"over 800,000 mostly ethnic Azerbaijanis were driven from the occupied lands"

According to the definition of Genocide that Armenians are so quick and keen to show everyone. This fits in with the description of Genocide. So Armenia is guilty of Genocide of the Azeri's.

In fact no. NK was Armenian land and its defense from forces who initially attempted to drive Armenains out required that they take the high ground surrounding NK and stop the cowardly shelling of civilians that was occuring by the Azeris from these locations. The fact that Azerbaijan pursued an agressive war against NK is the cause of these refugees and the fact that they fled in the first place has less to do with them being purposly driven away as it can be blamed on horrble Azeri propoganda which attempted to demonize Armenians and frighten their own people.

Regardless in no way do the actions remotely constitue gencocide...nor is the NK war directly relevant to the Armenian Genocide issue (juat another Turkish distractor - brininging such up...). That Genocide was commited against the Armenains of Anatolia during 1915/16 and continuing through 1923 is indisputable fact (particualrly since the term was originally coined to directly describs the totality of the acts commited against the Armenains by the CUP Turks)

[kemal1915]

I hope for your sake that you Turkeys have all been inoculated against the bird flu.. ..amazing the power of little microbes that cannot be seen...and how irrelevant such things can make all the bright metal and steel and explosive dust and whirly birds and such...I hope you get the gist of my point and maybe think to tone down your misguided and rather amusing national pride in what are really pretty pathetic and irrelevant peices of hardware...in the grand scheme of things...

our army has no an idea or a plan to attack to any country. its for dissuading the countries which want to attack to us or which try to solve the problems by force.so i said armenia not has a change to do that.we want peace and democracy in our lands also in our neighbours lands and again i want to say that our army is the insurance of our democracy and independance as in all countries.

but i see that still there are some countries like armenia that use its power(mostly russian power) to assult its neighbours land.this kind of solving problems method was being used about 100 years ago.do u want us to solve the problem about genocide

[1.5 million]

Kemal are you happy being ugly and stupid?

[phantom]

As a Turk I ask for both Turkish people and Armenian people in the forum to drop the "my father can beat yours, no my father can beat yours" attitude....

It goes without saying, Turkey and Turkish army can not be compared to Armenia and Armenia's army right now but that does not necesserily mean we
should empose "we are stronger we are stronger" attidute which is pretty meaningless since two countries are not in war and probably will not be in decades to come.....( This goes for my kin)

Also everyone should drop the nationalist, the ridicolus army legends of its nation since they are not true, if you are wondering how can small amount of people can harm great armies, see to guerilla tactics, urban warfare strategies which are types of warfare in which defender has the distinct advantage....
It has nothing to do with the blood or ethnical background of an individual but rather his position, technology,phiscology and training....( This goes for Armenian people)

Congratulations, I have to agree all of your points here.

[ScythianVizier]

I am quite familiar with the great tragedy that occured to the Armenian people of Anatolia/the Ottoman Empire during this period - known by all in the world as the Armenain Genocide - but I am less familiar with what you might be refering to concerning a Turkish tragedy?

Please initially read the link given below:

http://www.humanities.ualberta.ca/ottoman/module4/lecture4.htm

Are you trying to equate loss of territories such as the Arab lands in the Middle East (not even much populated by Turks) with the decimation of the ancient Armenian nations and the deliberate pre-planned assembly line like salughter of innocent Armenian men, women and children - the great brutalities assosiated with such actions and experienced by the Armenian people and the disaperence of Armenians from Anatolia (likely forever) - with loss of territory during a War that your nation proactively started with thoughts of taking territory?

I don't at all understand what you possibly could be refering to? If it is the expulsion of the Crimean Tartars or the expulsion of Turks from Europe (the Balkans) - I would argue that while tangentally related these events happened in a different time and place and cannot be considered as part of the same episode - which is defined by the Genocide of the Armenains people of Anatolia - a singular tragedy shared by Anatolian Greeks and Asyrians but certainly not by Turks who only profited and gained (materially and politically) from these horrendous inhuman barbaric actions...

No, I dont try to waive the ordeal that the Armenians expreienced. However, I try to point out the fact that the dissolving era of the Ottoman Empire was not only painful for Armenians.

Furthermore, as far as I understand when you say "Armenian", you use it for the ones who are Christians, not for the muslim Armenians such as Hamshenis. I am sure you heard the term "convert", and it is also well known fact that the hundreds of thousands of Armenian Christians converted to Islam in the 16th and 17th centuries, and even the Christian ones adapted to the Ottoman culture, language and life style. For sure, some of those "converts" still keep some Christian traditions, and some still retain the use of Armenian dialects, but they do reject the Armenian ethnic or national identity since they are not Christians anymore.

Today, we know that the Ottomans did not kill the muslim Armenians or Greeks (Pontic Greek-speaking Muslims people who are known as Laz people), though they did kill and deport the Christian Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. Same did apply to the Ottoman citizens who emigrated from former Ottoman lands before, during and after 1915. Those did include muslim Circassians, Greeks, Macedonians, Serbs, Tatars, Albanians, Bosniaks, Pomaks, Turks, and Roma peopes from Balkans and Caucasus.

Please also note that the total migration from Caucasus and Balkans (after establishment of Turkish Republic) was even over 2 million people, not to mention the millions who did migrate throughout late 18th and 19th Centuries, and not to mention the millions who were killed, raped, and deported by the Christian enemies of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Interestingly, most of those people were used to live in their natural habitats like the Christian Armenians, and now the descendants of those muslim nations live in Turkey whilst the Christian Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians of Anatolia do live else where.

Do you think it is only a coincidence? and do you really think that those are all unrelated events in history?

There is consensus among historians, nations and basically every and all bodies of people outside of Turkey, ethnic Turks and academics and lobbying groups directly funded by Turkey. It is Turks - and basically no others - that your call to learn from mitakes needs to be applied to - unless by example we would call on Jews from Germany to learn from thier mistakes of being unprepared for the violence commited against them we could likewise say the same concerning Armenians from the Ottoman EMpire.

I dont think I remember any apology from Russia for the crimes commited against the Circassians, do you? I dont recall any apology from Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia, Ukraine for the forced deportation and ethnic cleansing campiagns applied to the some 16.5 million ethnic Germans after WWII., do you? What about Belgium and the killings of some 10 million Africans in Congo? What about the crimes committed in Dutch East Indies, French Indochina, German Southwest Africa, Rhodesia, and South Africa?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_expulsions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4460659-103681,00.html

Frankly speaking, these kind of assertations and presentation of counter-crimes could go on forever, and in my opinion, such approach could not resolve any problem as long as one does not consider all of these crimes as the "related" problems of humanity.

The Armenian culture in Anatolia was decimated. I would call this disrespect in the extreme. So what perhaps would you call on for Turks to do to re-establish respect in this case. BTW - I like this point you are making. I think Turks need to really think about this one.

For sure, there are far less Christian Armenians in Turkey compared to the figures of early 1900s. However, the Armenian culture, language, and traditions do still exist in Turkey despite the terrible events that took place during the WWI, and hundreds of thousands of Armenian converts (who claim themselves as Turkish now) still reside in Turkey. In conclusion, I believe that making peace between Armenians and the Turkish is inevitable though we must all find ways to achieve it, and I hope that it would happen soon, if not sooner.

[maral_m79]

Oh you are so sure are you. Within the next 10 years you say. Turkey will be FORCED to recognise. Please tell me WHO is going to FORCE Turkey to recognise the Armenian Genocide..

Be patient, you'll see , why the rush anyway ...

Tisk Tisk leaving millions upon millions of Turks and Kurds in a desert would be like committing Genocide..

So, you agree that EVEN THE DEPORTATION of the Armenians WAS actually Genocide huh ?

. BTW what makes you so certain that the Turks and Kurds don't have land certificates to show that they are the Legal owners of the properties in question their certificates are more recent and therefore more valid. ..

Of course they do, but you may need to ask yourself this, Who did SELL them the houses farms and private properties of Armenians ? And Who did put the money of it in HIS pocket ?

They can take their money back from the Turkish Government, that SOLD those properties to these people, and with that money built YOU STRONG state.

[1.5 million]

SythianVizer - I am familiar with this material that you posted - but again - it is at best tangental to the experience of the Armenian Genocide. It certainly is a factor - as the Muslim refugees who poured in from outlying areas of the Ottoman Empire as the Empire collapsed were feverently anti-Christian and as the pattern of Empire collapse immensly affected the attitudes of Turks - particualrly those who were to influence and become the CUP. However Armenians had nothing to do with these incidents and if you (Turks) are looking for apologies well that is your own issue that you will have to pursue seperatly (that you cannot really expect Armenians to have any sympathy with at this time - really now...yeah deny the Armenian Genocide then expect Armenians to have any sympathy at all with the plight of Turks...). You also realize that apart from the Tatars and some of the other groups the Russians expeled (after long warfare where those groups who were kicked out were often agressive and threatening in their own right - to an extent orders of magnitude more then any Armenian sedition on the Ottoman Empire) - most all of the Turks expelled represented a foreign presence who acted as cruel overlords to the locals - and they thusly were expelled with a vengence when the tables were turned. None of this has any direct bearing on the situation of the Armenians within the Ottoman Empire. In fact Armenians fought in the Ottoman Armies in the Balkan wars and again were always considered as loyal subjects of the Sultan. There was no Armenain revolt or sedition of any kind outside of some communitites who were being double taxed and otherwise cruely exploited by the local Turkish officials and Kurdish chieftans. The various Armenian political parties compoesed mostly of Armenian students who had studied abroad made scant inroads into the Armenian populace at large. The Armenians were mostly after reforms so they could live without constantly being victimized and abused - however it was the Ottoman Turkish (rule over all the subjects and racist/religeous superiority concepts) mindset and paranoia (concerning collapsing Empire and the independence movements of ethnics within it) that doomed the Armenians. The leading and prior to the war only really influential Armenian political party (outside of a few regional/town areas in the East where other parties had some local influence - such as Van) - the Dashanaks in fact had allied with the CUP prior to thie revolution and supported them monetarily and otherwise. The problem was with the typical post revolutionary radicalization where the CUP turned on the Dashnals - and the Armenians - because those who came to power in the CUP were brought up with a racist Pan-Turanist agenda and they highly resented the Armenains for their wealth and sucess and because Armenian reforms pushed by Western Powers were a source of embarrasment to the Turks. These are the factors that led to the Armenian tragedy - the Genocide. The enormity of the Armenian Genocide and the clear role of the Turks as perpetrators make any consideration of Turkish suffering during this period moot. Just as we do not focus on German suffering during WWII considering the hurt the Germans put on Jews and others during this period. The analogy is the same. So get off your high horse about Turkish suffering. I know it occured - during this period, before, and after - but in no way can you really blame Armenians for any of it - just the opposite really - if you Turks had been more accomodating with Armenians you would have had a very useful partner during this period and you would have been able to feed your people at the very least. The blame for the tragedy during this period - the Armenian Genocide and any suffering experienced by the Turkish people rests squarly on the shoulders of you Turks. First the Sultan who through greed, corruption and pride let his Empire stagnate and crumble and allowed the EMpire to undertake a series of wars which it could not win. This created your refugee situation and allowed the oppurtunity for ethnic revolt. Then later - the CUP - instead of following through with the ideals of their revolution and enacting the reform to modernize the Empire - became a bunch of greedy racist blodthirsty scoundrals of the very worst kind. Yes - it is they who got Turkey into WWI in the first place - with designs on greater Turan and who used the war to enact their bloodthirsty solution to the "Armenian Question" - to impose a "final solution" on it - just as Hitler and the Nazis did with the Jews. And after - Ataturk brutally completed the job as weall as brutally put down all opposition and extended the misery in Anatolia. So don't you try top equate anything that happened to/with the Turks to the tragedy of the Armenians. If Turkics are gone from Crimea and the Balkans - well - that is a shame - but it is not our problem and it has nothing to do with the Armenians - cannot be used as any justification or counter balancing or what have you - because Armenians as a group commited no crimes - did nothing to warrent their harsh treatment and decimation. And you claim that Armenian culture is alive and well in Anatolia - ha! That is like claiming that elphants still roam North America because you can find one or two in a zoo!

[1.5 million]

Sounds like alot of talk to me but the truth is no one can FORCE Turkey to recognise the Genocide. Just because it is going to be the "100th anniversary" you think Turkey's position is going to change. The way I see it a change in the Turkish government's line will come with a change in regime in Ankara. Even then I doubt Turkey would recognise it, because it would be a betrayal of all the Turks that lost their lives during that bloody episode of history.

If what you say is true (though I could argue that you are wrong on a whole number of levels) then you are sentencing your nation to crumble and disinegrate much as the Ottoman Empire did - by being unable to mature and modernize. So OK - if this makes you happy - stay ignornant of the past and living in myth and I will guarrantee your nation will not exist in (a reletively) short time...

No the Deportations of the Armenians do not constitute genocide.

If this is what you believe then you are lacking....

I'm saying your attitude is as if you want to commit a Genocide against millions upon millions of Turks, Kurds, Azeri Turks, Romas, Circassians and Georgians and to create a pure ethnic Armenian state in Eastern Turkey. As a Armenian fellow said the deportation of the Azerbaijani's from their lands was not Genocide therefore the same standards must be applied to the Armenian Genocide.

I agree with the notion that outside of some miraculous solution that Turkey might come up with to accomodate Armenians and those living in former Armenian lands of Eastern Anatolia the only solution for establishing an Armenian state there would be unacceptable violence against innocent and unknowing peoples in the region - so I am not in favor of such. Other solutions must be worked out.

Oh - but it is quite a joke that you would attempt to equate the aggressive Azeri actions against Nagorno Karabagh and the resulting situation with a genocide - quite a joke really...and if you would say it is such then we much conclude it was the Azeris who have effectively commited a genocide on their own people.

Maybe the current legitimate owners of those propeties will object from being kicked out of their family homes. The Armenians should have came back and reclaimed their land back in the 1920's. They didn't as a result they have lost it and their right to reclaim it. By not reclaiming the land you 'apparently' own is your choice to abandon that land forever. The Turkish state will not pander to the dreams of the Armenian Diaspora.

Yes this would be nice except that the majority of the people who owned these properties were killed. And those who survived where legally prohibited form returning (even if they might have wanted to) and were specifically legally prevented from reclaiming propoerties as the CUP followed by Ataturk's nationalist government passed a series of increasingly restrictive edits designed to prevent any such reclamation. But I suppose you are unaware of this history - no doubt. So again - the ignorant are attempting to lecture us here.

You tried to fight Turkey you lost get over it, move on. I bet you dont even live on the Euroasian continent anymore. You have a new life now go live the American dream.

Yes most of us are doing quite well here in the west - quite...but Armenians (citizens of the Ottoman Empire who depended on thei state to protect them and enable them to live in peace) were the victims of Genocide from the very government charged with their welfare. There was no war by Ottoman Armenains against Turks. Anyone who would take this position is entirely ignorant of the history and is not worthy of making any comments on this issue.

BTW the Turkish state has the right to compulsory take 40% of anyones land if it wants to. Guess what the Armenian land claim is only 60% of whatever you claim it to be.

Yeah - well xxxx you too!

[Hovik]

Sounds like alot of talk to me but the truth is no one can FORCE Turkey to recognise the Genocide. Just because it is going to be the "100th anniversary" you think Turkey's position is going to change. The way I see it a change in the Turkish government's line will come with a change in regime in Ankara. Even then I doubt Turkey would recognise it, because it would be a betrayal of all the Turks that lost their lives during that bloody episode of history.

Nobody should FORCE Turkey to recognize it, but one way or another they inevitably will... we will continue working towards it, and we will get to see justice.

Tisk Tisk leaving millions upon millions of Turks and Kurds in a desert would be like committing Genocide..

So, you agree that EVEN THE DEPORTATION of the Armenians WAS actually Genocide huh ?

No the Deportations of the Armenians do not constitute genocide. I'm saying your attitude is as if you want to commit a Genocide against millions upon millions of Turks, Kurds, Azeri Turks, Romas, Circassians and Georgians and to create a pure ethnic Armenian state in Eastern Turkey. As a Armenian fellow said the deportation of the Azerbaijani's from their lands was not Genocide therefore the same standards must be applied to the Armenian Genocide.

Crazy, don't even bother trying to spin your way out of that one. Maral pretty much backed you into a corner - don't try to go back on or change the meaning of your words. And by the way, since you are talking about the 400,000 Azeri refugees of Karabagh, don't forget to talk about the 400,000 Armenian refugees who were kicked out of other parts of Azerbaijan (particularly Baku), and the massacres inflicted upon them.

Maybe the current legitimate owners of those propeties will object from being kicked out of their family homes. The Armenians should have came back and reclaimed their land back in the 1920's. They didn't as a result they have lost it and their right to reclaim it. By not reclaiming the land you 'apparently' own is your choice to abandon that land forever. The Turkish state will not pander to the dreams of the Armenian Diaspora.

I don't think this topic is even worth discussing at this point. Your friends the Jews who you adore so much are to this day making claims against Germany, why don't you tell them they should have finished making those claims by the 1950's??? Doesn't sound like to educated of a statement, and surely you wouldn't have the ______ to hold your friends to the same standards that you hold your foes, right? Have you ever heard of something called a DOUBLE STANDARD?

All I know is our family has a deed to a home in Sivas that we were kicked out of... we're just waiting for the rightopportunity.

You tried to fight Turkey you lost get over it, move on. I bet you dont even live on the Euroasian continent anymore. You have a new life now go live the American dream.

Who tried to fight Turkey? Are you talking about Armenian's who asked for the help of Russians after decades of Massacre? If so, get off your duff and go read a History book. You might find that this was during the time of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE not the time of TURKEY. When did we try to fight TURKEY? I mean this is hilarious, you come in here denying this and that, and then you don't even know the most basic facts of your own history. And get on the same page as the rest of the deniers who come in here and say "it was a different government who did crimes against Armenians, Turkey is a new state, they have nothing to do with it". I bet you are pissing off your Turkish colleagues here who are trying to absolve the Turkish republic of responsibility...

And by the way, there are quite a few of us who are not happy your dreamy WEST and U.S., who you spare no energy sucking up to... We are waiting for the right time to return to Western Armenia. You exiled us, we are still in exile...

And even for those Armenians who enjoy living in the Diaspora, as long as there is threat of their safety and rights in "Turkey" or the Turkish occupied territories of Western Armenia - they remain in exile regardless of their intent. Meaning, even if they wanted to return to their homeland they cannot be guaranteed basic rights and freedoms: they live in the Diaspora as exiles. Ottomans created the Armenian Diaspora, and Turks have maintained it so don't complain about it.

BTW the Turkish state has the right to compulsory take 40% of anyones land if it wants to. Guess what the Armenian land claim is only 60% of whatever you claim it to be.

Again, wasn't it Ottomans who took our homes? What does the Turkish state have to do with it?

I hope you'll have a chance to read a little basic Ottoman history before making your next post...