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Originally posted by phantom
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I guess they got full blown confessions that it was a systematic campaign out of them too... -
Here's Something you can read
It's not very clear to read but you can make it if you want. By the way, Armenians did not write this
Comment
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Kemal, thank you for your response.Originally posted by kemal
First, I said that the Genocide was "almost unanimously" accepted. Of course, there are still a few non-Turks who see it differently, like Justin McCarthy and Heath Lowrey (both paid by Turkish govt.), and this new Leey fellow. But the overwhelming majority, you must admit, say that it was a Genocide.
Second, that petition that you cited is 20 years old, and of the 69 signatories, many, as you can see, are Turkish and over 40 of them are from universities in which the Turkish government was paying for the Ottoman chair at the time. Since then, things have changed quite a bit. In 1998, more than 150 distinguished writers and scholars signed a petition commemorating the Armenian Genocide ( http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Aff...on_detail.html ). Then in 2000, at the Thirtieth Anniversary of the Scholars' Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches Convening at St. Joseph University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 126 Holocaust Scholars, holders of Academic Chairs and Directors of Holocaust Research and Studies Centers, participants of the Conference, signed a statement affirming that the World War I Armenian Genocide is an incontestable historical fact and accordingly urge the governments of Western democracies to likewise recognize it as such. The petitioners, among whom is Nobel Laureate for Peace Elie Wiesel, who was the keynote speaker at the conference, also asked the Western Democracies to urge the Government and Parliament of Turkey to finally come to terms with a dark chapter of Ottoman-Turkish history and to recognize the Armenian Genocide.
More recently, the International Association of Genocide Scholars has also spoken out against denial of the Armenian Genocide.
Moreover, there are more and more Turkish historians who are now acknowledging this fact, and I'm sure you know who they are; many of them participated in the recent discussions that occured in Istanbul, and many of them are now being charged with criminal sanctions for their activity.
So I think it is quite safe to say that the overwhelming majority of non-Turkish Holocaust and Genocide academics know and acknowlege the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide. Citing 20 year old petitions and lone voices among a sea of concurrence is not going to convince me otherwise.Comment
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Message deleted.
Posts in Turkish aren't allowed in this forum!
If you can't have a civilized conversation, please leave.Comment
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Where did they die????????
If you visit a Country named Syria and if You go there and visit a city named Deir El zor and as Arab People there where can I find the 1.5 million Armenians they will show you the way.Originally posted by pirate
Or if you go to the desert of Syria and as any one who is riding a camel or a horse he will show you bones of Armenian people after digging not more than 60cm underground.Comment
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Where did you get these information from? From turkish sources? Good boy... What else they have teached you?Originally posted by pirate
Mr. Pirate, go and read history carefully and ask other nations ask Arabs for example about what was happening in the Ottoman Empire.Comment
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I found one old encyclopaedia made by a rather neutral scientists from a rather neutral country.Originally posted by TongueDon't tell me how my family members died. Ok?
None of them died from "epidemic diseases".
Facts: from 1895-96 Turks killed 100 000 Armenians.
During WW1 Turks slaughtered 300 000 Armenian men, women & children.
The very much the same number of Armenian people died during deportation into wasteland of Mesopotamia.
(200 000 escaped into Russia and 400 000 of Armenians converted on Islam to save their lives - according to this text).
I do not know exact numbers of most recent research, but "even" murder of 700 000 innocent people including children sounds really frightening to me!
And to talk about Ottoman Empire
... I could talk much, but I'd have to involve a help from above and write about Blessed Virgin...
Maybe next time.
.../PierreComment
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Originally posted by PierreI found one old encyclopaedia made by a rather neutral scientists from a rather neutral country.
Facts: from 1895-96 Turks killed 100 000 Armenians.
During WW1 Turks slaughtered 300 000 Armenian men, women & children.
The very much the same number of Armenian people died during deportation into wasteland of Mesopotamia.
(200 000 escaped into Russia and 400 000 of Armenians converted on Islam to save their lives - according to this text).
I do not know exact numbers of most recent research, but "even" murder of 700 000 innocent people including children sounds really frightening to me!
And to talk about Ottoman Empire ... I could talk much, but I'd have to involve a help from above and write about Blessed Virgin...
Maybe next time.
.../Pierre
Enker Pierre,
Anyone who knows anything about the last years of the Ottoman Empire could see the inaccuracies in the quote you posted. First of all, the most debated fact here is that of it being a planned, calculated, and government sponsored Genocide - which it was. However, it is hard to find a Turk that will argue that massacres of Armenians hadn't been taking place for decades. Furthermore, the figure of 200,000 Armenians, NOT 100,000 Armenians is WIDELY ACCEPTED by informed individuals and historians. The psychologically inept Sultan Abdul-Hamid was proud of this fact and did not hide it. For the reason of this relatively large discrepancy (off by 50%) in numbers that are generally accepted, any logical individual would question the credibility of the rest of the information. I suggest you do the same.
By the way Talaat Pasha kept a little black book full of the numbers of Armenians killed and deported. His living relative is in current possession of it, some people who have had the chance to see it say that it confirms Armenian figures almost perfectly (or perhaps he recorded a few hundred thousand that we overlooked - ) Anyway keep these things in mind when considering the credibility your sources.
Welcome to the forum
HovikComment
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U mean - from 1895-96? ... because I mentioned a number of (total) 700 000 people ... not 100 000 ...Originally posted by Hovik
My knowledge about Turkey and its history is poor.
I know as much as it is related to Ottoman Imperialism on Middle Europe lands in 16. - 18. century.
Till several weeks ago I didn't know anything about Armenian Genocide.
When Croatia & Turky were marching towards EU – I heard for the very first time about it ... and started investigating.
Since I am interested in East Catholic Churches (Armenian, Maronit, Copts, Chaldeian ... ) this was specailly of my interest.
This is only "story" I knew (the one regarding Turks
):
On August 7th, 1715 the Turks has been started to attack Sinj (Croatia). In time the Turks hoped to besiege Vienna and ultimately to conquer all of Europe. The people of Sinj implored the intervention of the Blessed Mother. In their church they prayed before the portrait of the Virgin Mary then called "Our Lady of Grace".
700 people (villagers of Sinj) stood against 40 000 Osmanli's (of which 5000 Tatar's). After siege that lasted many days, and 14 assaults on the fortress, on the night between 14th and 15th of August (in the dawn of the Assumption) the attackers ran away in panic. They left almost all of their weapons, equipment … their wounded ones. Many of them drowned in the near river.
And while historian's are searching for rational explanation of Osmanli's defeat (from whom were they running away?!), local people still ~today~ believe in direct help from Blessed Virgin. Also, it is said the Turks saw the women in light and were terrible frighten.
Ecce ...
Here is what Wikipedia (well, not a reliable source, but.. ) says:
The Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or the Armenian Massacre) is a term which refer to the forced mass evacuation and related deaths of hundreds of thousands or over a million Armenians, during the government of Young Turks from 1915 to 1917 in the Ottoman Empire. Several facts in connection with the genocide are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of WWI.
Despite this thesis, most Armenian, Western, and an increasing number of Turkish scholars believe that the massacres were a case of what is termed genocide. For example, most Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll. The event is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust. A growing list of countries (Argentina, Armenia, Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, The Netherlands, Lebanon, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Switzerland, Uruguay, Vatican City and Venezuela ) have officially recognized and accepted the authenticity of the Armenian Genocide.
Tnx, it's good to be here ...Welcome to the forum
HovikComment
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If I am not mistaken you said from 1895-96 that 100,000 people were killed right? (by the way I believe the massacres really began in 1894, but thats rather inconsequential) So I don't know what 700,000 has to do with that time period. Anyway I was just saying that during the period you are referring to (1895-96, or 1894-96 which are referred to as the Hamidian Massacres) the figure of 200,000 and NOT 100,000 is most widely accepted (regardless of your 700,000 total).Originally posted by Pierre
Thats fine, few if any of us are experts, this forum is here for the purpose of learning, as long as you are ready to learn and have an open mind you are a step ahead of many others.Originally posted by Pierre
I have a great interest in Ottoman History as well, and studied it a bit in college, it really intrigues me.Originally posted by pierreTill several weeks ago I didn't know anything about Armenian Genocide.
When Croatia & Turky were marching towards EU – I heard for the very first time about it ... and started investigating.
Since I am interested in East Catholic Churches (Armenian, Maronit, Copts, Chaldeian ... ) this was specailly of my interest.
This is only "story" I knew (the one regarding Turks ):
On August 7th, 1715 the Turks has been started to attack Sinj (Croatia). In time the Turks hoped to besiege Vienna and ultimately to conquer all of Europe. The people of Sinj implored the intervention of the Blessed Mother. In their church they prayed before the portrait of the Virgin Mary then called "Our Lady of Grace".
700 people (villagers of Sinj) stood against 40 000 Osmanli's (of which 5000 Tatar's). After siege that lasted many days, and 14 assaults on the fortress, on the night between 14th and 15th of August (in the dawn of the Assumption) the attackers ran away in panic. They left almost all of their weapons, equipment … their wounded ones. Many of them drowned in the near river.
And while historian's are searching for rational explanation of Osmanli's defeat (from whom were they running away?!), local people still ~today~ believe in direct help from Blessed Virgin. Also, it is said the Turks saw the women in light and were terrible frighten.
Ecce ...
Here is what Wikipedia (well, not a reliable source, but.. ) says:
The Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or the Armenian Massacre) is a term which refer to the forced mass evacuation and related deaths of hundreds of thousands or over a million Armenians, during the government of Young Turks from 1915 to 1917 in the Ottoman Empire. Several facts in connection with the genocide are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of WWI.
Despite this thesis, most Armenian, Western, and an increasing number of Turkish scholars believe that the massacres were a case of what is termed genocide. For example, most Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll. The event is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust. A growing list of countries (Argentina, Armenia, Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, The Netherlands, Lebanon, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Switzerland, Uruguay, Vatican City and Venezuela ) have officially recognized and accepted the authenticity of the Armenian Genocide.
Tnx, it's good to be here ...
Wikipedia is ok, a good place to start... I look forward to your future posts.
HovikComment
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