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Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

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  • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

    Originally posted by Saco View Post
    Let them call themselves Turks. I am ARMENIAN, speak Armenian, live in Armenia, both my parents are Hayastanci's, etc. Do I not have the right to call myself Armenian? Why should I NOT want to call myself who/what I am? Whoever isn't an Armenian won't be called an Armenian. I hate the American way of life. Whoever goes there becomes an AMERICAN once he/she gets a greencard or something. I always look at that country as a place where people go to forget who they are!

    Anyways, I think it's OK if Turks want to call themselves Turks! What's wrong with that? In my opinion, what truly is wrong is being racist when talking to a Turk that supports the AG, etc. There are people that I've met that were just like that and all I can say is that their hate and anger was controlling them when it's supposed to be the other way around. (I'm not talking about anyone in this thread)
    Simply acknowledging the Armenian Genocide doesn't mean you stop being racist, you need more than simply Genocide recognition, but a change of ideas and opinions. It is true there are Turks that recognize the genocide and want a better Turkey that isn't racist or negative to its citizens and its neighbours.

    Unfortunately most Turks are not like that, in the same way that most Germans used to support Hitler or Nazism the Turks have not yet broken free of idol worshipping Ataturk and the "Turkish Republic". Till that happens Turkey as a nation can only be regarded as racist or negative to itself and its neighbours, with dissidents and freedom fighters within that oppose this.

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    • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

      Originally posted by hipeter924 View Post
      ..........the Turks have not yet broken free of idol worshipping Ataturk and the "Turkish Republic". Till that happens Turkey as a nation can only be regarded as racist or negative to itself and its neighbours, with dissidents and freedom fighters within that oppose this.
      Well said Mate...........Our true enemy is the enemy of a true (good) Turk. But even then we got problems.
      Last edited by Eddo211; 06-10-2009, 05:27 PM.
      B0zkurt Hunter

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      • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

        Originally posted by hipeter924 View Post
        Its called Turkey though. I am sure Turkish people even if Turkey recognises the Genocide and becomes a respectful, tolerant and democratic country that people will still want to call themselves Turks...but rather instead of it being a race...it will refer instead to all citizens of that country, like Americans for example call themselves Americans even though it is clear there are several different ethnic groups.
        This is exactly what I wish for in Turkey. There is no such thing as a Turkish race, Turks are mostly the descendants of indigenous converts to Islam, with only slight true Turkic gene influence. Hence why Arab and Kurd decedents, despite being muslim, never identified themselves as Turks after the fall of the Ottoman empire.

        However, this wasn't Ataturk plan for Turkification, he believed all Ottoman descendants who were loyal to his ideology and state, regardless of religion and ethnicity should be labeled as Turks. Kemalism in its original form only defined Turkishness through citizenship.

        I consider xxxish, Greek, or Armenian citizens of Turkey as Turks. However let me stress that this does not mean they have to hide their ethic background, or be ashamed of it. Multi-culturalism should be seen as a strength in modern Turkey.

        Armenian citizens of Turkey helped create the Turkish language.

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        • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

          Simply acknowledging the Armenian Genocide doesn't mean you stop being racist, you need more than simply Genocide recognition, but a change of ideas and opinions. It is true there are Turks that recognize the genocide and want a better Turkey that isn't racist or negative to its citizens and its neighbours.

          Unfortunately most Turks are not like that, in the same way that most Germans used to support Hitler or Nazism the Turks have not yet broken free of idol worshipping Ataturk and the "Turkish Republic". Till that happens Turkey as a nation can only be regarded as racist or negative to itself and its neighbours, with dissidents and freedom fighters within that oppose this.
          But not every individual Turk ! I'm not talking about Turkey, I'm talking about the Turks themselves. I also agree with you Eddo jan, our enemies are the enemies of the good Turks as well but I've also seen many people confuse the good Turks with bad ones and that I feel is very bad (As if we don't have enough enemies). Why has that happened? Because many people can't control themselves.

          I'm saying this again, we're not talking about Turkey, we're talking about the Turk's themselves.
          THE ROAD TO FREEDOM AND JUSTICE IS A LONG ONE!

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          • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

            Originally posted by Saco View Post
            But not every individual Turk ! I'm not talking about Turkey, I'm talking about the Turks themselves. I also agree with you Eddo jan, our enemies are the enemies of the good Turks as well but I've also seen many people confuse the good Turks with bad ones and that I feel is very bad (As if we don't have enough enemies). Why has that happened? Because many people can't control themselves.

            I'm saying this again, we're not talking about Turkey, we're talking about the Turk's themselves.
            Okay I get you now.

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            • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

              Really? Or are you just being sarcastic? )
              THE ROAD TO FREEDOM AND JUSTICE IS A LONG ONE!

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              • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                20 years for Dink murder, 28 years for book about this murder


                More than two years after Agos editor Hrant Dink was shot dead, a reporter stands trial for writing about the circumstances surrounding the murder. For his alleged crimes, he faces 28 years in prison, eight years more than what the murder suspect would serve if convicted.

                Milliyet daily reporter Nedim Şenerís book "Dink Murder and Intelligence Lies" focused on the intelligence deficiencies by security agencies before and after Dink was shot dead, leading to a police officer and three senior Police Department intelligence chiefs filing complaints against him.

                Dink, who was prosecuted for insulting Turkishness, was killed in front of Agosís office. The chief suspect, a teenage nationalist, is currently on trial along with several alleged accomplices who are accused of influencing the culprit.

                Milliyet daily reported that the complaints have led the Istanbul Prosecutorís Office to charge Şener with publication of secret information and turning anti-terrorism officials into targets. The reporter faces a maximum prison term of 28 years if found guilty.

                Şener, speaking to Anatolia news agency on his way to the opening hearing yesterday, said he is facing a total of 28 years in prison if convicted in two cases on charges of obtaining classified documents and insulting government officials.

                Şener has two trials pending as a result of the complaints. Yesterdayís trial at the Istanbul Second Court was on violating official secrets. Şener, who faces up to eight years in jail on this charge, defended himself by saying that the information in his book was from phone conversations that were made public on televisions and newspapers months before his book was printed. "These conversations are also on the Internet and can be found when one searches Google," he said.

                Şener said the trial aimed at preventing the public from learning the facts about Dinkís murder and press freedom. He asked the court to find him not guilty. The judge decided to postpone the trial to another date for the defendantís lawyers to prepare for the prosecutorís case.

                Milliyet Editor-in-Chief Sedat Ergin told Anatolia news agency his presence at court was to support not only Şener but also press freedom in Turkey. "We are showing this solidarity in order to ensure press freedom in respected," he said. The Turkish Journalists' Association, or TGC, released a statement on the case, seeing it as "worrying" and a problem for democracy, Hurriyet Daily News reported.

                http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=32929
                Azerbaboon: 9.000 Google hits and counting!

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                • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                  This is exactly what I wish for in Turkey. There is no such thing as a Turkish race, Turks are mostly the descendants of indigenous converts to Islam, with only slight true Turkic gene influence. Hence why Arab and Kurd decedents, despite being muslim, never identified themselves as Turks after the fall of the Ottoman empire.

                  However, this wasn't Ataturk plan for Turkification, he believed all Ottoman descendants who were loyal to his ideology and state, regardless of religion and ethnicity should be labeled as Turks. Kemalism in its original form only defined Turkishness through citizenship.

                  I consider xxxish, Greek, or Armenian citizens of Turkey as Turks. However let me stress that this does not mean they have to hide their ethic background, or be ashamed of it. Multi-culturalism should be seen as a strength in modern Turkey.

                  Armenian citizens of Turkey helped create the Turkish language.
                  So what your saying is that the word TURK should be or is a title? You basically want Turkey to do what America does, am I right? I mean, it's almost the same thing here. There is no such thing as an AMERICAN race. So this is what you want. Interesting. Well, the only problem is that Turkey doesn't think like you do and to top it off, your leaders and fellow Turks make people hide their identity in so many ways. Until that changes, Turkey won't be moving on and neither will anyone else!
                  THE ROAD TO FREEDOM AND JUSTICE IS A LONG ONE!

                  Comment


                  • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                    CONGRESSMAN BILIRAKIS QUESTIONS WHY TURKEY CONTINUES TO PROSECUTE INDIVIDUALS WHO DISCUSS THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

                    June 18, 2009, 9:10 am

                    Washington, DC - In a hearing yesterday before the Subcommittee on Europe in the House of Representatives, Congressman Gus Bilirakis (R-FL), raised strong concerns regarding the Turkish government's ongoing prosecution of journalists and academics under the auspices of Article 301, which penalizes discussion of the Armenian Genocide.


                    Bianka Dodov, Rep. Bilirakis and Bryan Ardouny prior to Gordon's testimony.


                    Rep. Bilirakis asked Philip Gordon, Assistant Secretary for Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs at the Department of State, who was testifying about the Administration's policies in Europe, "In light of Turkey's continued prosecution of intellectuals who express themselves, what steps will you outline with the Turkish government to ensure greater freedom of press and expression in Turkey?"

                    Gordon replied, "The U.S., everywhere, and the Obama Administration, is a strong proponent of freedom of expression, freedom of the media, freedom of the press, free societies. Turkey took some steps last year to revise Article 301 of its penal code, that made it more difficult to have political prosecutions, that was an important step forward. [Turkey] would do well to continue down that path and allow for more freedom of expression. And we have a constant dialogue with the Turkish government about these issues and we'll continue to make that view clear."

                    "The Assembly commends Congressman Bilirakis for his defense of the truth. Whether it is Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, highly paid lobbyists arguing against the Armenian Genocide Resolution in Congress or lawsuits filed in U.S. courts, such as the recent Massachusetts case in which a federal judge upheld the Commonwealth's decision to exclude genocide denial materials in its curriculum, Turkey's campaign of denial continues," stated Assembly Executive Director, Bryan Ardouny.

                    Established in 1972, the Armenian Assembly of America is the largest Washington-based nationwide organization promoting public understanding and awareness of Armenian issues. The Assembly is a 501(c) (3) tax-exempt membership organization.

                    ###


                    Editor's Note:

                    Complete written testimony of Philip Gordon, Assistant Secretary for Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs at the Department of State.

                    Link

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                    • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                      U.S. Slams Turkey's Human Rights

                      http://middleeast.about.com/b/2009/0...man-rights.htm


                      Thursday February 26, 2009

                      The U.S. State Department released its 2008 Human Rights Report on Turkey Thursday. Don't be caught reading it in Turkey, or spreading it around there: you might be charged with "insulting Turkish identity"--an actual, actionable crime in that paradox of a nation.

                      The report makes for uncomfortable reading:

                      The government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, serious problems remained in some areas. During the year human rights organizations documented a rise in cases of torture, beatings, and abuse by security forces. Security forces committed unlawful killings; the number of arrests and prosecutions in these cases was low compared with the number of incidents, and convictions remained rare. Prison conditions remained poor, with chronic overcrowding and insufficient staff training. Law enforcement officials did not always provide detainees immediate access to attorneys as required by law.

                      Just as it claims it's a democracy where all people enjoy equal rights, Turkey also claims it has no political prisoners. That, too, is a fabrication by its blind-spotting Ministry of Justice, which has a convenient method of hiding political prisoners. It brands them terrorists. According to the State Department report, there were several thousand political prisoners, including leftists, rightists, and Islamists, and contended that the government does not distinguish them as such. The government claimed that alleged political prisoners were in fact charged with being members of, or assisting, terrorist organizations. According to the government, 2,232 convicts and 2,017 pretrial detainees were being held in prison on terrorism charges through September 2007.

                      As for press freedom and freedom of expression, the latest incident on the floor of the Turkish parliament, where a Kurdish legislator was vilified for speaking Kurdish (the television station carrying his speech cut him off once he stopped speaking Turkish) is revealing.

                      "The government, particularly the police and judiciary," the report states, "limited freedom of expression through the use of constitutional restrictions and numerous laws including articles of the penal code prohibiting insults to the government, the state, "Turkishness," Ataturk, or the institutions and symbols of the republic. Other laws also restricted speech, such as the Antiterror Law and laws governing the press and elections."
                      It's not East Germany in the 1970s, to be sure. But that's no consolation to those who'd rather see Turkey, ostensibly the largest Muslim democracy after Pakistan (Pakistan? a democracy?) live up to the name.

                      Read the full report:

                      http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt...eur/119109.htm
                      B0zkurt Hunter

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