Armenia?

[neutral]

Why dont most of the world recognise the Armenian Genocide??? Why doesn't America? Why doesn't the UK? Why doesn't Israel(a victim of Genocide)?

Its because there are disputes about certain elements of History. I am not denying the murders but if Historians like Justin McCartney are complete and utter liars then why is he apart of a established university like the university of Louisville. A establishment that is in the top 500 universities in the world and a university in the top 200 in the entire Americas.

Phantom I think you didn't read my earlier post. I am not denying anything. So dont say crap like

Do yourself a favor and be honest and objective with this question;

Why doesn't someone tell me why these countries don't recognise the Genocide and don't come back here with answers like, oh the USA loves Turkey and hates Armenia, oh America blah blah blah Turkey, Pro-Turkish, Turkish lobby groups, something to do with anti Armenia...

Furturemore do you actually have any proof that shows that he is paid by the Turkish government(to work in an AMERICAN university). I mean can I just pay a Historian to get employed at an established university to talk about the Turkish Cypriot Genocide.

[phantom]

Phantom I think you didn't read my earlier post. I am not denying anything. So dont say crap like
Why doesn't someone tell me why these countries don't recognise the Genocide and don't come back here with answers like, oh the USA loves Turkey and hates Armenia, oh America blah blah blah Turkey, Pro-Turkish, Turkish lobby groups, something to do with anti Armenia...

Neutral, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you truly are ignorant as to why the U.S., UK and Israel have not officially acknowledged it on a federal level. If you look at the legislative record, the U.S. has come to the brink of officially acknolwedging it several time, most recently in 2000 when Bill Clinton was President. At that time, a bill to recognize the Genocide was going to be put for a vote in the House of Representatives. It had soundly defeated any resistance in all of the committe votes leading up the House vote. Furthermore, in 2000, Dennis Hastert, who was Speaker of the House, had announced that he would support the resolution. Thus, if there had been a vote on it, the resolution had so much support in Congress, that it was sure to pass. But then on the eve of the full House vote, Dennis Hastert withdrew the resolution. Now, at the time, he explained this by saying that he had had a letter from President Clinton asking him to withdraw it, because it wouldn't be in America's interests to have such a resolution, which, of course, was bitterly resisted inside Turkey, pass through the House.

The resolution was shelved amid heightened tensions in the Middle East over the terrorist bombing in Yemen of the USS Cole, which killed 17 Navy sailors, and weeks of violent clashes at that time between Israelis and Palestinians.

In a letter to Hastert, Clinton said, "We have significant interests in this troubled region of the world: containing the threat posed by East and Central Asia; stabilizing the Balkans; and developing new sources of energy.

"Consideration of the resolution at this sensitive time will negatively affect those interests and could undermine efforts to encourage improved relations between Armenia and Turkey."

There had been some repercussions after the House International Relations Committee approved the resolution earlier that month.

Turkish President Ahmet Necdet Sezer had called Clinton to express concern over the resolution, and Turkish legislators threatened not to renew the mandate for U.S. forces using the Incirlik air base in southern Turkey to patrol the no-fly zone in northern Iraq, in an ongoing effort at that time to contain Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

Turkey's top general, Huseyin Kivrikoglu, canceled a trip to the United States to meet with U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Henry Shelton.

It also threatened to end negotiations with U.S. firm Bell Textron to buy 145 attack helicopters in a $4.5 billion tender, and hinted at other commercial steps it might take, including fully reopening an oil pipeline from Iraq.

Hastert defended the resolution: "I believe the Armenian people suffered a historic tragedy, and that this resolution was a fitting condemnation of those events. But the president of the United States, the commander and chief of our Armed Forces, has asked us not to bring this resolution to the House floor," he said.

And in announcing that the vote has been canceled, Hastert said he believed the legislation would have passed, but that circumstances required that U.S. Congress members proceed with caution.

"This is not an idle request. We all know that the situation in the Middle East is unusually tense," Hastert said.

See, for example, http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLI...20/us.armenia/ , which is an article on this subject from CNN.

With respect to Israel, Israeli professor Dr. Yair Auron, Senior lecturer at the Open University of Israel, Kibbutzim College of Education has this to say as to the reasons for Israel's lack of acknowledgment: "Two main reasons are generally given: (a) constant pressure by the different Turkish governments, (b) strong pressure from groups within Israeli society, who are afraid that the recognition of the Armenian Genocide would damage the concept of the uniqueness of the Shoah." (http://www.proarmenia.am/eng-2003/en-Yair_Auron.htm)

As for the British, why don't you read the Blue Book? That's the actual official position of the British government whether they like it or not.

Now, again I think it is in your best interest to stop going down the path of fighting your circumstances. Instead you should work with them and try to understand why it is that the academic establishment has concluded that this was a Genocide. Also, keep in mind that the Turkish government constantly argues, whenever a resolution is going to be voted on, that this is a matter for historians and not politicians. But whether you focus on the governments, so many of which have officially recognized the Genocide, or the genocide experts, almost all of whom have concluded that it was a Genocide, you end up with the same situation: the vast majority view is that it was a Genocide.

[phantom]

Furturemore do you actually have any proof that shows that he is paid by the Turkish government(to work in an AMERICAN university). I mean can I just pay a Historian to get employed at an established university to talk about the Turkish Cypriot Genocide.

http://turkishstudies.org/itsreport.doc

He is an associate membef of the Institute of Turkish Studies, which is a program funded by the Turkish government, and he has received grants from that institution. That makes him "paid" by the Turkish government.

[neutral]

http://turkishstudies.org/itsreport.doc

He is an associate membef of the Institute of Turkish Studies, which is a program funded by the Turkish government, and he has received grants from that institution. That makes him "paid" by the Turkish government.

Heres a quote from that report.

"ITS was founded two decades ago with the goal of promoting knowledge and learning about Turkey in the American academia and to strengthening the cultural and educational bonds between the United States and Turkey. Over the course of the past twenty years, the Institute of Turkish Studies has succeeded in attaining this goal and establishing itself as a major source for the advancement of scholarship and research on Turkey in the U.S. "

I can't believe you are claiming the Institute of Turkish studies is full of lies.

[maral_m79]

Well thats just me I'm just sooo eager for all voices to be heard.

There is no OTHER side of any Truth.
Is there in your opinion another side to the Haulocaust of the Jews?!

Just the same way goes for the Armenian Genocide, and for any other crime. There is a Truth, and there is a Lie ... Nothing in between my friend don't try to compromise, Ok ? Because if you do, you'll be "Justifying" the Genocide, which is in my opinion WORSE than denying it out of ignorance.

Mybe we "tolerate" those denialists in this list, we know they deny the Genocide out of "ignorance" of historical facts, and they were subjected to lies their entire lives... we try to "explain" things to them, and they have all the right to listen or not... but at the end of the day, Historical facts won't be changed because they WANT so, maybe with time they'll learn to accept facts as they are, and leave the arrogance and ignorance aside.

[maral_m79]

As to you second link http://www.proarmenia.am.

BTW That is a website for a "Conference" and it was called proarmenia.

Maybe you should read the Blue-Book! Or the uncensored version currently in circulation http://www.gomidas.org/books/bryce.htm. (There is evidence to suggest that it is propaganda but I don't want to go into details, cos Armenians might react by biting my heard off)But still no British recognition..

It's wise of you not to do that,because It is a shame, to call the Blue-Book a "war propaganda" , you'd be insulting the credibility of a high rank Officials of Great Britin, and rediculing yourself just like the Turkish Parlaiment.

FYI, British officials through out the History were ,almost ALWAYS , anti-Armenians. Refer to Role of Britin in the Berlin Memorandum 1876 Treaty of San Stefano 1878 , Treaty of Berlin 1878. You'll know what I'm talking about.

[maral_m79]

Heres a quote from that report.

"ITS was founded two decades ago with the goal of promoting knowledge and learning about Turkey in the American academia and to strengthening the cultural and educational bonds between the United States and Turkey. Over the course of the past twenty years, the Institute of Turkish Studies has succeeded in attaining this goal and establishing itself as a major source for the advancement of scholarship and research on Turkey in the U.S. "

I can't believe you are claiming the Institute of Turkish studies is full of lies.

Maybe if you bother taking a LOOK at the "report" that he was referring to you, you'll know how did they accomplish their Goals.

Bribing schools, and universities, and academics.

Read it, they say Turkish government FUND them, and They say we SPEND that money here, there, giving grants to this and that .... etc.

And the Heath Lowry's ( former director of ITS ) scandal back at 1985, is a STRONG evidence of HOW that institue who's "president" is the Turkish Ambassador, and is been "Funded" by Turkish Government.

for more details about the Heath Lowry Scandal refer to Professional Ethics and the Denial of Armenian Genocide, for more info. about the corrupted academics refer to Turkish endowment gifts to U.S. colleges spur debate over study of Armenian massacre. And if you are As Neutral as you claim, read what "Neutral" Academics and scholars had wrote in their Petition .

Then come back, and let's see how much neutral you really are !

[ARTINIAN]

OH MY GOD.. YOU TURKS ARE SO BRAINWASHED BY YOUR GOVERMENT.. you watch turkish tv and they teach you what to say... open a book and get some real info about what happened.. turkey doesnt even deserve to exist..

[neutral]

Then come back, and let's see how much neutral you really are !

I might as well not pretend to be neutral anymore because crazyt exposed that I am of Turkish descent in his very first post.

[maral_m79]

I might as well not pretend to be neutral anymore because crazyt exposed that I am of Turkish descent in his very first post.

Good, then again I will have to kindly ask you to change your name, if you have no intention to deceive members of this forum.