Armenia?

[maral_m79]

They dont change it they misinterpret it for their own purposes.

The Hadith refers to people living in the areas where Turks/Mongols/Chinese were living. The hadith mentions a nation that will dominate world in their number and power by the end of all times. They say the Hadith refers to Turks(since they oppose Ottoman Khalifa).

There were NO Wahhabi's during Ottoman times, even if there was few who think that way, there were NOT that strong, to manipulate / misinterpret it for their own perposes !

[TurQ]

Meral
Abdul-Wahhab the scholar whose teachings later known as Wahhabism lived in 18th century todays Saudi Arabia(Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab).

His followerd had a revolt in 18th century and it was supressed by Ottoman forces. His life is later forgiven by the Khalfia since he was one of the decendants of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). He had some justified points, because there was corruption in understanding of religon especially among sufism. He had developed an extreme reaction to the things that he thought was Bid'a(new inventions to religon). He also thought tombstones and grave yards are Bid'a(cause people were visiting tombs that he thought resembling pagan traditions). When his followers actually marched and tried to destroy Prophets burial place, Ottomans intervened and stopped them.
Wahhabism were strong in those times. Since the Ottomans were mostly sufi, they ruled out them as Kuffar. Lawrence easily utilized this, and convinced Arabs that they were living under a "Kuffar" nation/state and do not live under "Khalifa". That kind of hadiths are misinterpreted for propoganda purposes by Arab Nationlists. The Wahhabism that we see today is weak version of it. It lost its power, and people say no more than 10% percent of Saudi Arabia is actually core Wahhabis. But since they are in the ruling circles Wahhabism looks still powerful.


For some scholars Wahhbism is a continuation of a certain Hariji movement back in 7th-8th century. They even have roots before Ottomans as AbdulVahhap was influenced greatly by Ibni Teymiyye(who lived in 13th century)

There were NO Wahhabi's during Ottoman times, even if there was few who think that way, there were NOT that strong, to manipulate / misinterpret it for their own perposes !

[crazyt]

According to Hellektor the Turks were created.............By Accident

First of all let me tell you that the most common thing Turks do is to project their negative traits on Armenians, from accusing them of genocide to rejecting their being indigenous people of the land they occupy, etc.
Then the presumptions and stereotyping is truly sensational.
Hey, I'm not a descendant of the survivors of the genocide, Shah Abbas forced us to leave our home in 1604 which was in its form a kind of genocide itself, but since what happened next was generally positive, we do not hold a grudge and feel OK. I have already explained this with more detail, I won't repeat it here.

So, it's not what my parents and grandparents have told me. In this country, unlike what you might think, we have not been subject to the same brain damage as in your fascist country, I discovered the facts through reading real history, I'm sorry you are not able to see the reality.

It's obvious from your post how confused you are and how all the illogical defecation they have forced down your throats have become a kind of "reality" for you.

For start I don't live in Turkey, I live the UK. I wasn't even told about the Armenian Genocide by my parents I first found out in a history lesson it my history teacher said, "Do you what the worst Genocide was ever?" everyone was silent, he then said,"95% of the Armenian population was killed by the Turks." I also had a heart attack I was thought he was wrong but I didn't say anything because I didn't no the facts. At least now I can safely say he was wrong 95% of Armenians were not killed.

You say Turkey is fascist?! Lets have look at Armenia.

Taken from the Cia factbook.
Ethnic groups: Armenian 97.9%, Yezidi (Kurd) 1.3%, Russian 0.5%, other 0.3% (2001 census)
Religions: Armenian Apostolic 94.7%, other Christian 4%, Yezidi (monotheist with elements of nature worship) 1.3%

Where are the Jews? Where are the Muslims? The only reason you have allowed this kurdish minority in your country is simple its because they are Christians. The truth is Armenia is exactly what Turkey is today. We cleared ethnic minorities out of our lands (you were one of them) and you did the same thing to your ethnic minorities.

I haven’t read this yet, but a quick glance confirmed what I had expected.
You really have no shame, do you?
Not only you claim all the ancient nations as being related to Turks but you steal all the Iranian scientists and claim they were Turks.
Birouni, Farabi, Razi… were all Iranians as their names clearly indicate. How dare you claim they were Turks. Shame on you, shame, shame. You claim Tabriz and Maragheh as well. Where does this end? Who is not Turkish after all?
From Native Americans to Urartu Armenians, Etruscans, Babylonians, Sumerians, Achaemenids, Greeks, Medes, Lydians, Thracians, Manni, Aratta, Utiks, Aghvank (Albanians of the Caucasus), Parthians, Martians, Jupiterians, Out of this Universians, Parallel Universians, Pre-Big Bangians, DAMMIT who the hell is not Turkish? Civilization envy or a desperate attempt to justify your illegitimate presence on other people’s land?

Guess what that pdf file wasn't from a website like turan.com or pro-turkey.com, its from www.muslimheritage.com its not a Turkish website its a Muslim website. I can assure you that a Muslim website wouldn't publish a misleading document like this. It must have been read and verified many times before it was posted on that website.

Again, you play the race card which I always have refused to do.
I have already expressed what I think of the Turkish race many times, it's in the "Challenge..." thread. It's not about race, you search for it if you wish, I won't repeat this here either, because my replies become too long.
But as I click this link, the whole "accredited"ness (if one could say!) of this article melts in front of my eyes like dog xxxx under a heavy rain on sidewalks of a European city.

"Azerbaijanis of the Republic of Azerbaijan and the South Azerbaijan region of Iran"

Man! This is Pan-Turkist garbage. Why don't you get it?
Believe me, I do want to prepare a complete article about "Azerbaijan" and Azarbaijan (Aturpatekan), but it will take up an enormous amount of time. I hope I'll find the time to do it, although I know you are so badly brainwashed that you won't accept it.

Every historian (and geographical historian) from Strabbo, Pliny, Ptolemy... to Arab and Persian historians Balazari, Massoudi, Tabari, Dinvari... to Armenian historians from Khorenatsi, Pavstos Buzand, Agatangeghos to Kaghankatouatsi... have provided humanity with undeniable HISTORICAL facts, where there is absolutely no question regarding the separateness, duality, “unrelatedness”, call it what you want, between the REAL Azarbaijan (Aturpatekan) and the land north of the Arax River in racial, linguistic, religious, cultural and national terms.
Your problem is you are so convinced of a Mafioso thug such as Ziya Buniatov's bullxxxx, written in 1965 that you are unable to accept the real historians.

It's obvious you didn't read what I said earlier but like it or not:

A nation called "Azeri" has NEVER EXISTED throughout human history.

Azari is a term used by Arab historians to describe the LANGUAGE of the people of real Azarbaijan (Aturpatekan), north-west of Iran and ALWAYS south of the Arax River. It was a language of the PERSIAN family of languages called Pahlavi. The dialect spoken in Aturpatekan was called Pahlavi e Azari, to distinguish it from other Pahlavi dialects. Later when the people of Aturpatekan were forced to become speakers of Turkish, the word Azari was wrongly attributed to the Turkish dialect of these people, AND NEVER TO THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES.

Are you to have me believe that non-biased resources like wikipedia are wrong? Are you to have me believe that wikipedia is written by pro-Turkic facists?

BTW the link I provided was written by an Azeri from Southern Azerbaijan I would have to go with her claim of what HER ancestry IS over your 'claim' of what her ancestry.
Lets see what a neutral article says.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan

"A majority of the population are Shi'a Muslim and of Western Turkic descent, known as Azerbaijanis, or simply Azeris."

.................................................. ................

"Islam spread in Azerbaijan following the Arab conquests in the 7th–8th centuries. In the 11th century, the Seljuk Turks became the dominant force in Azerbaijan and laid the ethnic foundation of contemporary Azerbaijanis. In the 13–14th centuries, the country experienced Mongol-Tatar invasions."

we have not been subject to the same brain damage as in your fascist country

I could say that you have been the unfortunate one to have been brainwashed! But I wont resort to that childish tactic.

I said it a million times, I'll say it again:
How come Turks can say such offensive crap:
"A nation lived under the reign of Turks for more than 4 hundred years...then betrayed them during the ww1..then they claim there's genocide..a nation disloyal to its master..a nation deserves to be sent to hell..a nation nothing but a problem for the earth Victory for TURKS..."
-Master of Revenge
and I am not entitled to counter it?
Don't you see how insolent this garbage is? What is it with you guys and your pride and superiority complex?
Whatever I have said thus far will in no way amount to:
"a nation disloyal to its master..a nation deserves to be sent to hell"
Do you become temporarily blind to what Turks say, just as you become unperceptive that the Armenian Genocide is an undeniable FACT, backed by a mountain of evidence one person's life would not suffice to study it all?

I have never heard that before. Who said it? BTW I am not denying the deaths of Armenians.

May I ask you why the Armenians don't live in their homeland?
May I ask you why it's not our land anymore?
Don't you know it was the result of genocide and forced turkification that took our land from us?

The murdering thieves who broke into my house and raped and slaughtered my entire family are not, and will never be the legitimate owners of my house and nothing can change that.

The "pan-Armenian" bullxxxx is yet another example of your psychosis called projection.

Tough xxxx. The Republic of Turkey is not responsible for the evil actions the Ottoman regime and the ultra-nationalist Young Turks. We will not give our legally (established by recognised treaties) owned land to you. If you like Anatolia so much then MOVE THERE. The family that live in your ancestors house (if it is still standing?) are innocent people or are you suggesting the ENTIRE TURKISH population were involved in the Genocide. Its also amusing when you say your entire family were slaughtered I suppose you have the deeds to the property in question? If not be quiet, if you do have the deeds I'm just dumbfounded how could you be in posession of the deed if your entire family were slaughtered.

Oh no wait you said it yourself "I'm not a descendant of the survivors of the genocide". SO be quiet.

The treaty of Sèvres is one such valid treaty, signed by the loser Turkey and Armenia and the victorious nations, the Lausanne treaty on the contrary was not signed by Armenia and was imposed on us through treacherous dealings of the United Kingdom of the Greatest Turkish-Phallus Suckers and Soviets.
Besides, Christapor the great brain of Dashnaktsoutioun said "the borders drawn by powers are there to be torn apart" or something like that.
We have liberated Artsakh thus far. It's only 2 or 3 % of our 90% occupied land, but it's a start!

Oh thats funny if the treaty of Sevres is valid WHY hasn't it been implemented? The treaty was signed by the Ottoman Sultan, he has nothing to do with the republic of Turkey. The Republic of Turkey, the republic you can see with your own eyes rejected this treaty. If anyone wants to enforce this old treaty they are free to do so. Britain didn't do so when they warned Turkey not to enter Eastern Thrace. Its funny how the treaty of Lausanne is a legally internationally recognised treaty the Greeks even accept it. Or is the treaty of Lausanne a dream dreamt up by anti-Armenian propagandists?

Maybe Turkey re-enact the treaty of Kars if it does GOODBYE ARMENIA. Dont even think about getting your greedy expansionist hands on Nakhichevan because guess what Turkey considers itself a guarantor of Nakhichevan. Something tells me its to do with past treaties!

"Turkey is now our historical homeland "
See how phuked up your brain is? NOW cannot be HISTORICAL.
Turkey is "founded" on my historical homeland and we were living there since the dawn of history and we had at least 5000 years of civilization before you invaded 1000 years ago and destroyed my home and killed us for a thousand years till there was no more of us and more than 50 million of you. Had there not been you, there would be 30 to 40 million Armenians living in their homeland.

I am aware Turkey was founded on SOME of your historical homeland. But the truth is it WAS your land it is NOW the land of the Republic of Turkey but that doesn't mean that Armenians aren't able to visit their historical homeland but in doing so they have to do it knowning that it is not their land anymore. I think living on land for a 1000 years is a rightful claim to the land. The people that are now known as the French emigrated to the area that is now known as France and that was during the fall of the Roman empire (or 1000 years earlier than the Turkic migration to Asia Minor). Why don't the Turks have a valid claim to the land that they legally own(Lausanne), but the French do have valid claim to the land that the legally own?

You dont even live there anymore so shut your mouth, you are trying to still link Armenia with lands that Armenians don't currently live in. Its OUR land now. You can't say with certainty that the Armenian population would now be 50 million if it weren't for the Turks. If the Turks were continously plundering, raping and killing you for 1000 years why didn't you flee? Why didn't you emigrate to Azerbaijan? If you did you would be a rich oil state but today Armenia today is nothing.

This is such bogus Pan-Turkist crap it defies logic.
Aturpatekan existed at least since after the death of Alexander.
After Alexander's victory over Darius III and the fall of the Achemenid empire, Iran came under the Seleucid rule soon after Alexander's death. However, a satrap named Atropat (Atropates) established an independent state in the northwest region of Iran (known as Median Iran and always south of the Arax River) which from then on was called Aturpayegan or Aturpategan (in Old Persian or Parthian) after him.
I won't go into detail what Russians were doing back then.

You can explain what happened in the region during Alexander's time but that was 1000 years before the Turks emigrated to Asia minor via Iran. The Turkic peoples that you love to hate settled everywhere along the route the most dense areas of settlement where Turkey (of course), the Caucasus region, Azerbaijan and many places across Iran in particular south Azerbaijan.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...sus-ethnic.jpg

Look at that map, look how much of Iran is blue. The importance is in the key of the map under Altaic Peoples guess what it says Azeri! Guess what the Azeris are denoted as blue on the key.

Delusion, delusion added to confusion...
"Black people were called Nig***"!!!! What kind of argument is this?
What? You consider Tatar an insult? They were called Tatars not to be looked down upon, it was their ethnic appellation.
The America cliché also comes to justify the Turkish occupation of Armenia and to lessen the gravity of the Genocide.
Let the Natives take care of their problem, right now I have more of my own.
This website is called armeniangenocide.com not nativeamericangenocide.com
BTW, I read in several Turkish websites that the "scientific" researches show that the Tursk and the Native Americans share 70% of DNA and kind of present themselves as victims of genocide!!

But why call us Tatars? We are Turks! Turkey does not occupy Armenia, legal international treaties do NOT constitute occcupation!

Are the Native Americans descents of Turks that travelled across the Bering-
Aleutian strait during the last ice age?

The 'Natives' aren't all the same are they. They speak different languages and have different physically appearances. The natives also look like the Turks did back in the day. The Prophet Mohammeds Hadith about the Turks provided by Maral do remind me of the Native Americans.

http://ireland.iol.ie/~afifi/Articles/turkic.htm
The word mother in Turkish = ana
The word mother in Eskimo = ananaq
The word mother in Aleut = anaq
The word mother in Puan / Nippegon = nahne
The word mother in Aguacetec = na

There is alot of anthropological evidence to suggest that they are including as you quite rightly said genetic evidence. However I wouldn't want to speculate about the origins of the Native Americans so thats all I have to say on the matter. BUT that said the notion of Turkey obtaining damages from the American government is INSANE. But that is beside the point.

This is ridiculous, after you enter EU and destroy the European Civilization and turkify all the Europeans, you are going to claim land from Americans. Chimpanzees are about 99% human yet they are not.

Is that this kind of stuff they teach you in the Armenian Orthodox Church?

Ay, ay, ay, ay... Are you really that ignorant!
Would you allow us to climb our holy mountain?
Sometimes yes (recently), most of the times no. Don't tell me you didn't know this.

Exactly you already provided the answer. We did last month.

We've seen them all come and go:
The Assyrians, the Romans, the Persians, the Byzantines, The Arabs, the Turks of all colors, the Soviets...
All these empires invaded Armenia, killed, ravaged, pillaged and plundered us. They cut Armenia into pieces and brought every calamity imaginable and otherwise. Yet they are all gone and we still resist.
The American empire will fall sooner than you can imagine. America is a paper tiger completely dependant on oil. When ther's no more oil the Americans will not survive, because they cannot walk to Ralph's or any other supermarket to buy bread. They have to use their cars, so they will starve.
Come on, have some sense of humor, you know what I mean.

Damn Americans they are ruining our planet! As Americans you should urge local politicians to make America more environmentally friendly. I heard that most of Florida will become submerged in several decades time and that is due to global warming.

This is so fascist that almost renders me speechless.
But get this in your head:
You can jump from the Empire State, you can grow wings and fly, you can lick your elbow, you can kneel and pound the floor with your fists, you can howl to the moon but you cannot change the fact that the Turkish speaking Iranians are not related to the bogus nation north of Arax historically and that a nation called "Azeri" has NEVER EXISTED throughout human history.

Yet again more Childish responses. You can over up the sovereignty of Azerbaijan by calling it names like 'bogus' but the reality is that it DOES EXIST. You are wrong when you say:

a nation called "Azeri" has NEVER EXISTED throughout human history.

because guess what Azerbaijan has been in existance since 1918. The Azeris make up 24% of Iran population.
From the Cia Factbook.
Ethnic groups: Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1% .
Notice how it clearly distinguishes Persian from Azeri.

So you are claiming that the Cia factbook is wrong now? I guess its also wrong when it 'claims', "Armenia prides itself on being the first nation to formally adopt Christianity".

[crazyt]

There were NO Wahhabi's during Ottoman times, even if there was few who think that way, there were NOT that strong, to manipulate / misinterpret it for their own perposes !

There WERE Wahhabis during the Ottoman period. The Wahhabi movement was founded during the 18th century.

[Tongue]

You say Turkey is fascist?! Lets have look at Armenia.

Taken from the Cia factbook.
Ethnic groups: Armenian 97.9%, Yezidi (Kurd) 1.3%, Russian 0.5%, other 0.3% (2001 census)
Religions: Armenian Apostolic 94.7%, other Christian 4%, Yezidi (monotheist with elements of nature worship) 1.3%

Where are the Jews? Where are the Muslims? The only reason you have allowed this kurdish minority in your country is simple its because they are Christians.

Many ARMENIANS were even leaving Armenia up until a year or two ago... Some still are, but the numbers are not that high. Armenia gained independence from the Soviet Union in 1991!! The living conditions the way Communism handed us the country were horrible. Many Armenians themselves left the country in the 1990s... so why is it such a surprise that no outsider went to live there?

[Tongue]

You are wrong when you say: because guess what Azerbaijan has been in existance since 1918. The Azeris make up 24% of Iran population.
From the Cia Factbook.
Ethnic groups: Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1% .
Notice how it clearly distinguishes Persian from Azeri.

So you are claiming that the Cia factbook is wrong now? I guess its also wrong when it 'claims', "Armenia prides itself on being the first nation to formally adopt Christianity".

A country named Azerbaijan north of the Arax River NEVER existed before 1918

Hellektor was saying the same thing.... unless you meant he was wrong about saying "Azerbaijan has been in existance since 1918".

And if you're trying to say Azerbaijan existed before 1918, YOU are wrong. I don't care about it's existance to be honest, but when someone's bs-ing, I like to point it out. Just because Iran had a 20something population of Azeris, doesn't mean Azerbaijan the country existed before 1918. What kind of a twisted mentality is that? Find any map from before 1918, and see if you can find the word "Azerbaijan" on the current Azerbaijan's location on it. You can't.

[TurQ]

Meral

I didnt say what she was saying was wrong. I am aware of Armenian contribution to Turkish culture.

What I said was I wouldnt trust their personality(If I were you). You can hear exactly the opposite from them some other time. Dogu Perinchek, Shule Perincek his son Mehmet Bora are all members of this marginal political group

I think they used both slogans both Emperialist Lie and International Lie whatever. If you show references from Perincheks some people might give other references from them that you probably wont like.

Small correction to you ... His SLOGAN exactly was "The Armenian Genocide is An International Lie".

It was USED A LOT, in the demonistrations outside the Turkish university where the conference about the Ottoman Armenians held in Ankara Sept. 2005.

And I don't share your opinion that one can't RELY on what Shule Perinchek say specially in this very study. It would only "increase" the importance of this admition to facts by a woman who's husband think that Armenian Genocide is A Lie .....

[phantom]

Are you to have me believe that non-biased resources like wikipedia are [b]wrong

Ok, then I guess you'll have no problem with what wikipedia has to say about the Armenian Genocide:

FROM WIKIPEDIA:

The Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or the Armenian Massacre) is a term which refers to the forced mass evacuation and related deaths of hundreds of thousands or over a million Armenians, during the government of Young Turks from 1915 to 1917 in the Ottoman Empire. Several facts in connection with the genocide are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.

Despite this thesis, most Armenian, Western, and an increasing number of Turkish scholars believe that the massacres were a case of what is termed genocide. For example, most Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll. The event is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust. A growing list of countries, as discussed below, have officially recognized and accepted the authenticy of the Armenian Genocide.

Armenians in Anatolia
Main article: Ottoman Armenian Population
In 1914, before World War I, there were an estimated two million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, the vast majority of whom were of the Armenian Apostolic faith, with a small number of the Armenian Catholic and Protestant faiths. Until the late 19th century, the Armenians were referred to as millet-i sadika (loyal nation) by the Ottomans, as it is said they were living in harmony with other ethnic groups across the Empire without any major conflict with the central authority — this despite religious and ethnic differences and the Christian Armenians being subject to Islamic dhimmi laws, which gave them fewer legal rights than Muslims. While the Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia was large and clustered, there was also a considerable community of Armenians in the West, many in the capital city of Istanbul, where a substantial community remains to this day. The communities in Eastern Anatolia suffered the heaviest human losses. As a result of the events, thousands of Armenians fled to independent and semi-independent neighboring regions such as Egypt, Lebanon, Palestine, and Iran in what is known as the "Armenian Exodus". There are still large Armenian communities living as minorities in these countries today. A quarter of the old (that is "walled") city of Jerusalem is today known as the Armenian quarter.

Before the genocide
During the second half of the 19th century, Armenians started embracing nationalism, along with the other minority groups of Anatolia, such as Greeks and Bulgarians. Despite pressure on the sultan Abdul Hamid by Western European countries about the Armenian Question, massacres only increased: according to Western accounts, 100,000 to 300,000 Armenians were killed within the Empire between 1894 and 1897.

In 1914, the Ottoman government passed a new law to support the war effort that required all enabled adult males up to the age of forty-five to either be recruited in the Ottoman army or to pay special fees in order to be excluded from service which would still be used in the war effort. By this law, most able-bodied men were removed from their homes, leaving only the women, children, and elderly by themselves. Most of the Armenian recruits were later turned into road laborers, and many were executed.

Following the Ottoman Empire's entry into World War I, Imperial Russia invaded Eastern Anatolia, where the Armenian and Muslim communities were interleaved. Taking advantage of common religion and the recent discomfort of the Armenian community in the Ottoman Empire, Russia promoted Armenian nationalism, and there were many Russian-Armenians in the Russian army. At the same time, some Armenians had begun advocating an independent state.

Genocide
On April 24, 1915, the Young Turk government arrested several hundred - or, according to Turkish records, over two thousand - Armenian intellectuals. It is believed that most of these were soon executed. This was quickly followed by orders for the forced evacuation of hundreds of thousands - possibly over a million - Armenians from across all of Anatolia (except parts of the western coast) to Mesopotamia and what is today Syria. Many went to the Syrian town of Dayr az Zawr and the surrounding desert. It is also claimed that the government did not provide any facilities to care for the Armenians during their evacuation, nor when they arrived. Some records suggest that the Ottoman troops escorting the Armenians as a matter of course not only allowed others to rob, kill, and rape the Armenians, but often participated in this activity themselves. The forseeable consequence was a significant number of human losses.

After the recruitment of most men and the arrests of certain intellectuals, widespread massacres have been reported taking place throughout the Ottoman Empire. In Van, it is said that the governor Jevdet ordered irregulars to commit crimes and force the Armenians to rebel to justify the encircling of the town by the Ottoman army; the Venezuelan mercenary, Nogales, who served in the Ottoman army, also reports an order by Jevdet to kill every Armenian male in Van. Turkish authors on the other hand, report an Armenian revolution in Van during the same period.

The Ottoman government ordered the evacuation or deportation of many Armenians living in Anatolia to Syria and Mesopotamia. It is believed that over a million were deported, though this figure has not been conclusively established. The word "deportation" could be considered as misleading (and some would prefer the word "relocation", as the former means banishment outside a country's borders; it is said that Japanese-Americans, for example, were not "deported" during World War II). Some historians believe that the evacuations were, in practice, a method of mass execution which led to the deaths of many of the Armenian population by forcing them to march endlessly through desert, without food or water or enough protection from local Kurdish or Turkish bandits, and that the members of the special organization were charged to escort the convoys (which meant their destruction).

Camps
It is believed that twenty-five or twenty-six major "concentration camps" (Dayr az-Zawr, Ra's al-'Ain, Bonzanti, Mamoura, Intili, Islahiye, Radjo, Katma, Karlik, Azaz, Akhterim, Mounboudji, Bab, Tefridje, Lale, Meskene, Sebil, Dipsi, Abouharar, Hamam, Sebka, Marat, Souvar, Hama, Homs and Kahdem) existed, under the command of Şükrü Kaya, one of the right hands of Talat Pasha. The majority of the camps were situated near the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers, and some were only temporary transit camps. Others are said to have been used only as temporary mass burial zones—such as Radjo, Katma, and Azaz—that were closed in Fall 1915. Some authors also maintain that the camps Lale, Tefridje, Dipsi, Del-El, and Ra's al-'Ain were built specifically for those who had a life expectancy of a few days. Like in the cases of the Jewish KAPOs in the concentration camps, the majority of the guards inside the camps were Armenians.

Even though nearly all the camps, including all the major ones, are said to have been open air, according to Ottoman records, some were not. Dr. Ragib and Dr. Vehib, both, the colleagues of Dr. Said (Health inspector) testified during the Military court, that Red Crescent camps were used to kill by morphine injection and from which bodies were thrown into the Black Sea. In other instances, according to witnesses, there were some small-scale killing and burning camps where the Armenian population was told to present itself in a given area, and was subsequently burned en masse.

It is hard to assess the authenticity of such claims since the occupying force Britain was actively involved in creating war time propaganda some could be termed black propaganda blurring the distinction between the real events and personalities with the fabricated ones. Eitan Belkind was a British spy and a Nili member, who infiltrated the Ottoman army as an official. He was assigned to the headquarters of Jamal Pasha. He claims to have witnessed the burning of 5000 Armenians in such a camp.

Other records from the military tribunal suggest that gassing installations existed as well. Testimonies during the persecutions put forth that Dr. Saib and Nail, an Ittihadist deputy, were heading two school buildings used as extermination camps for children. Both Saib and Nail were allegedly in charge of providing the list of infants who were to be distributed among the Muslim populace; the rest were to be sent to the mezzanine floor to be killed by a mass gassing installation. The children were sent allegedly there under the pretext of taking baths but were poisoned instead.

While the total number of victims that perished in the camps is hard to establish, it is estimated by some sources at close to a million. This excludes Armenians who may have died in other ways, but may include the special organizations' participation in the events; the majority of the excluded losses are recorded in Bitlis and Sivas.

Special Organization (Teşkilat-ı Mahsusa)
While there was an official "Special Organization" founded in December 1911 by the Ottoman government, the second organization that participated in what led to the destruction of the Ottoman Armenian community was founded by the lttihad ve Terraki. It technically appeared in July 1914 and was supposed to differ from the one already existing in one important point; mostly according to the military court, it was meant to be a "government in a government" (without needing any orders to act). Later in 1914, the Ottoman government decided to influence the direction the special organization was to take by releasing criminals from central prisons to be the central elements of this newly formed special organization. According to the Mazhar commissions attached to the tribunal as soon as November 1914, 124 criminals were released from Pimian prison. Many other releases followed; in Ankara a few months later, 49 criminals were released from its central prison. Little by little from the end of 1914 to the beginning of 1915, hundreds, then thousands of prisoners were freed to form the members of this organization. Later they were charged to escort the convoys of Armenian deportees. Vehib, commander of the Ottoman third army, called those members of the special organization, the “butchers of the human specy.” This organization was led by the Central Committee Members Doctor Nazim, Behaeddin Sakir, Atif Riza, and former Director of Public Security Aziz Bey. The headquarters of Behaeddin Sakir were in Erzurum, from where he directed the forces of the Eastern vilayets. Aziz, Atif and Nazim Beys operated in Istanbul, and their decisions were approved and implemented by Cevat Bey, the Military Governor of Istanbul.

According to the same commissions and other records, the criminals were chosen by a process of selection. They had to be ruthless butchers to be selected as a member of the special organization. The Mazhar commission, during the military court, has provided some lists of those criminals. In one instance, of 65 criminals released, 50 were in prison for murder. Such a disproportionate ratio between those condemned for murder; and others imprisoned for minor crimes is reported to have been generalized. This selection process of criminals was, according to some researchers in the field of comparative genocide studies, who specialize in the Armenian cases, clearly indicative of the government's intention to commit mass murder of its Armenian population. Also, according to records, physicians participated in the process of selection; health professionals were appointed by the war ministry to determine whether the selected convicts would be fit to apply the degree of savagery of killing that was required.

It is estimated that the members of the special organization have killed hundreds of thousands of Armenians.

Military trials, Istanbul, 1919
Many of those responsible for the genocide were sentenced to death in absentia, after having escaped their trials in 1918. The accused succeeded in destroying the majority of the documents, that could be used as evidence against them, before they escaped. Admiral Calthorpe, the British High Commissionar, report about the destroying of documents: “Just before the Armistice, officials had been going to the archives department at night and making clean sweep of most of the documents.” Aydemir, S.S., on the other hand, writes in his "Makedonyadan Ortaasyaya Enver Pasa.": “Before the flight of the top Ittihadist leaders, Talat Pasa stopped by at the waterfront residence of one of his friends on the shore of Arnavudköy, depositing there suitcase of documents. It is said that the documents were burned in the basement's furnace. Indeed ... the documents and other papers of Ittihad's Central Committee are nowhere to be found.” The martial court established the will of the Ittheadists to eliminate the Armenians physically, via its special organization. The Court Martial, Istanbul, 1919: "The Court Martial taking into consideration the above-named crimes declares, unanimously, the culpability as principle factors of these crimes the fugitives Talat Pasha, former Grand Vizir, Enver Efendi, former War Minister, struck off the register of the Imperial Army, Cemal Efendi, former Navy Minister, struck off too from the Imperial Army, and Dr. Nazim Efendi, former Minister of Education, members of the General Council of the Union & Progress, representing the moral person of that party;... the Court Martial pronounces, in accordance with said stipulations of the Law the death penalty against Talat, Enver, Cemal, and Dr. Nazim."

There's more, but I couldn't fit it into one post.

[phantom]

The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see discussion on the talk page.

You failed to post this important fact along with your post of the Armenian Genocide.

Yes, and when you read the discussion you'll see that the only one's disputing it were a couple of Turkish denialists, particularly the guy from tallarmenian___ . His arguments were soundly defeated and the version that was posted is the one that you see above. This is a microcosim of what's happening in the world on this subject. The denialists' arguments don't hold water, which is why their version of history is buried along with the dinosaurs.

[phantom]

Why dont most of the world recognise the Armenian Genocide??? Why doesn't America? Why doesn't the UK? Why doesn't Israel(a victim of Genocide)?

Its because there are disputes about certain elements of History. I am not denying the murders but if Historians like Justin McCartney are complete and utter liars then why is he apart of a established university like the university of Louisville. A establishment that is in the top 500 universities in the world and a university in the top 200 in the entire Americas.

Neutral, first don't make me list for the 100th time all of the countries and organizations that have officially acknowledged the Genocide. Second, you know why the federal government of the U.S. doesn't acknowledge it YET, and why both the UK and Israel don't officially acknowledge it YET. And you know it has nothing to do with the historical record. Furthermore, you also know that most of the United States has, in fact, acknowledged it insofar as over 40 states in the United States have officially acknowledged it. In Israel, the world's foremost authority and think tank on Genocide, the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem, has acknowledged it and condemned its denial.

As for Justin McCarthy, he has made himself the laughing stock among genocide experts. He doesn't even try to hide his bias any more. He, like Lowry, is paid for his opinion.

This is the reality. The fact of the Genocide is not an issue that is debated by the world's foremost genocide academics; they've now moved past that question and are now studying the why's, hows, results, comparisons, etc. This is the situation. If I were you, rather than fight this reality, I would honestly and objectively look at the historical record to determine why the overwhelming majority of genocide experts have come to this conclusion. Do yourself a favor and be honest and objective with this question; don't come back with answers like it's the Armenian lobby, and Armenian propoganda, and the world hates Turks, and other ridiculous and cliche excuses.