Armenia?

[crazyt]

So it was in BOTH , Al Bukhari and Abu Huraira ?

I'm sorry I think you have made a big mistake in your statement. I will accept it as a mistake because your knowledge of Islam isn't too great.

But Sahih Bukhari wrote a many books of the Prophet Mohammed's hadiths. The other people that wrote up these books of hadith were Sahih Muslim and Sunan Abu-Dawud.

Abu Huraira was just one of the witness who witnessed the Prophet Mohammed say this. Abu Huraira is not some who wrote up the hadith.

Are you sure of the word "Turks" in the "Hadith" ?

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8255/hadith8od.png

As far as History concerned, Muslims didn't do any "Futohat" THAT far in Asia during the Time when Muhamed was alive !

I'm sorry I do not follow what your trying to say here.

[cosmos]

I'm sorry I do not follow what your trying to say here.

Maral was saying that:

''As far as I am concerned Muslims hadn't conquered anywhere that was in the far Asia during the time when the Prophet Muhammed had been alive.''

Yes, it is right but Turks had come to Mid-East (Arab's region) I think.

[cosmos]

In fact, I believe that the Prophet Muhammed described the features of the Mongols. As far as I'm concerned Mongols attacked to Muslims during the Prophet's times. But some authors and people (and Hellektor) accept that the Mongols and Turks were the same. Maybe there were Turks among Mongols because they had lived in near lands in central Asia.

[crazyt]

In fact, I believe that the Prophet Muhammed described the features of the Mongols. As far as I'm concerned Mongols attacked to Muslims during the Prophet's times. But some authors and people (and Hellektor) accept that the Mongols and Turks were the same. Maybe there were Turks among Mongols because they had lived in near lands in central Asia.

Oh yes we all know that according to Hellektor there isn't even a people called the Turks, he probably thinks the term 'Turk' was coined by Ataturk back in the 1920's to create a evil anti-Armenian state.

No doubt some Turks mixed with the Mongols, as likewise with the Huns, Iranians, Chinese and countless other people. But to claim that all Turks are Mongols is simply misguided.

One should remember the reason for the Turkish migration and that was to flee from the Mongols.

[Kharpert]

When humanity was in it's infancy there were three types of people: Africoids, Caucusoids, and Mongoloids. Armenians originated from the Caucusoids. Turks originated from the Mongoloids.

[TurQ]

Turks in HAdith

Cosmos
That HAdith refers to Mongols or the Chinese(the nation of Yejuj and Mejuj).
Some Islamic scholars believed that the hadith refers to the catastrophy caused by the Mongols -Jengiz Khan and Hulagu- that have destroyed Abbasids and then later destroyed the Seljuki Turkish state, devastated Central Asian Turkish Khankliks. But Most of the scholars believe that they are the Yejuj and the Mejuj, a nation that lives in far east, outnumber any other nation, and will eat/finish life resources by the end of the time, right before Kiyamet(The destruction that will finalize the world's life). Yejuj and Mejuj could be the Chinese nation for most of the Islamic scholars.

In late 19th century and early 20th century some Arab nationalists and Wahhabists who were againsts Ottoman Khalifa commented that this Hadith is actually refering to Turks. But these were artificial explanations just to feed newly founded Arab nationalism and Wahhabism and found little support among Arabs.

Suprisingly these comments found support in some Turkish circles. These circles wanted to adapt Ateism/socialism and secular nationalism(which is a Turkish counterpart of Baas Ideology) to Turkish identity. They wanted to seperate Islamic values from Turkish identity, and used this hadith as a tool to scare Turks away from Islamic traditions. Some deep state(state within state,as we call it)suported these guys time to time. Some writers/autors and politicians are supported to spread these ideas. Ilhan Arsel is one of them, Dogu Perincek(head of workers party), or the Aydinlik newspaper is another example.

In the time of the Prophet Muhammed(Pbuh) Turks and Muslims had little contact. We know that some Sahabis(companion of the Prophet) immigrated and died in Maveraunnehir(region between the rivers Seyhun and Ceyhun in today's Ozbekistan), in time of Khalifa Omer Turks might had contact with muslims in Caucusia and Persia. But the first encouter was in Emevid time, which Turks and Muslims had a war. Emevids were an Islamic state in the begining but later they fall into corruption and Pan Arabism. But with the Abbasid time, and their rationale policies Muslims and Turks had immediatly recovered their relations and Turks became Muslims in large populations. They were believing a shamanic type of religion which has a God named "The Lord of the Heavens/skies" or the Gok-Tanri. This monotehistic version of Shamanism and Turkish social values made it very easy to embrace this new faith.

As opposed to this marginal social engineering propoganda in Turkey, Turks reacted any attempts by sword and never accepted anything by force. By the time of Abbasids the Army of Khalifa was controled by newly Turkish converts. During the time of Mongolian attacks both Turks in central asia and the ones who are leading the army of the Abbasd Khalifa fought on the side of Arab and Persian Muslims.

In fact, I believe that the Prophet Muhammed described the features of the Mongols. As far as I'm concerned Mongols attacked to Muslims during the Prophet's times. But some authors and people (and Hellektor) accept that the Mongols and Turks were the same. Maybe there were Turks among Mongols because they had lived in near lands in central Asia.

[TurQ]

Turks and Mongols

Turks and Mongols are coming from same roots. But they are far relatives of each other. Even before Islam a Turk and a Mongol could be easily distinguished.
I think because of the geography they are thought to be same.

After the Mongolian invasions in 12th and 13th century, the Mongols lost their power rapidly. They stayed in the lands when they once reigned and melted among the Turks and became muslims. They literally disappeared. Today they are a nation of 2 million or so.

The Turks were already came to Middle east before Hulagu and Jengiz Khan invasions but they later immigrated in large population chunks because of the Mongolian attacks.

Oh yes we all know that according to Hellektor there isn't even a people called the Turks, he probably thinks the term 'Turk' was coined by Ataturk back in the 1920's to create a evil anti-Armenian state.

No doubt some Turks mixed with the Mongols, as likewise with the Huns, Iranians, Chinese and countless other people. But to claim that all Turks are Mongols is simply misguided.

One should remember the reason for the Turkish migration and that was to flee from the Mongols.

[TurQ]

When Humanity was in its infancy there was Prophet Adam our Father and Eve our MOther(Adem and Havva).
In the time of Infancy Abel killed Cain(Habil and Kabil).

It is not the nations but the individuals be either Abel or Cain.

This kind of racial/ethnic profiling could be rational in 19th century but it is old fashioned now. And I do not think 19th century style nationalism could serve to the interests of Armenians/Turks today.

When humanity was in it's infancy there were three types of people: Africoids, Caucusoids, and Mongoloids. Armenians originated from the Caucusoids. Turks originated from the Mongoloids.

[TurQ]

Hellektor

I wouldnt rely on Shule Perinchek. She is the wife of DOgu Perincek. I think you guys know him from this summer in Switzerland. He held a meeting in Lousanne to commamorate the treaty of Lausanne, where he said "Armenian allegations are a big Emperialist Lie".

They are the leaders of Workers Party in Turkey, you see them somethimes with Abdullah Ocalan, sometimes with Nationalists, sometimes even with some Islamists. YOu can see them saying totally opposite the other day. They are used as Communists agaist nationalists, Nationalists against EU supporters. Some times Armenian supporters and in this summer as you see sometimes against Armenians.

This has nothing to do with Armenian contribution to Turkish culture. Selimiye Kislasi(Barracks) are one of my favorite buildings in Istanbul, thanks to Architect Balian for his art



[QUOTE=Hellektor]To see how much you owe us and despite all we gave you, we got genocide and destruction of our monuments for thanks, just check the few samples presented below.
For a start I suggest you read a research by Shule Perinçek where she says:

[phantom]

When humanity was in it's infancy there were three types of people: Africoids, Caucusoids, and Mongoloids. Armenians originated from the Caucusoids. Turks originated from the Mongoloids.

Then the Turks and Armenians mixed and lived together for almost 1000 years, and today, they are of the same race. What is the relevance of this issue to the topic of the Armenian Genocide? We should not fall into the abyss of this nonissue.