Armenia?

[imported_Hellektor]

Şule Perinçek

Can you please refer me to where I can find this study ? I mean if it is a book or a link or article.

This is very interesting
Thanks in Advance

Thanks for the interest. I have already pasted this a thousand times before! But there always will be people who see it for the first time.
Unfortunately, I do not have the complete source, it's from a study by Şule Perinçek. The Armenian translation I have tells me the study goes under the title "Our Armenians" or something like that. If you find the complete source please share it with us.

It's a shame how weak and poor the Armenian websites are concerning the mountain of facts about the AG and all the Armenian contribution to the Ottoman Tyranny.

If you Google any Armenian subject, you'll get gazilllions of Turkish revisionist results but hardly any worthy Armenian webs.

If you Google Sinan for instance, you'll find his "biography" in Turkish touristic websites saying that "he was originally a Christian", "he was originally a Greek Orthodox" and similar crap.

They are afraid to say he was an Armenian although they goddamn well know that he was one.

[imported_Hellektor]

Tatars and what they looked like!

[QUOTE=cosmos]

You quote me so I feel I have to respond.
I don't get what you are trying to say, it's not correctly written, however, I think you are hurt reading Grigor Aknertsi's description of your ancestors.

I tried to say that, is there any nation which has been more insulted than Turks. So, we are the first at least at something.

This description doesn't seem scientific. But it sounds me like the prophet of Islam Mohammed said similar things about Turks. Does it suit to a prophet? I don't know. You may make a comment on it.

Cosmos, I often paste this fantastic quote from Grigor Aknertsi, a minor historian from Cilicia, who did not actually see the Tatars, but wrote it from what he heard.

What's important is that every Armenian historian has provided some useful information about their own time, and times before themselves that are also used to illustrate the lost historical links from many nations, from Persians to Georgians as well. Otherwise, we know that people don't live for 300 years and do not actually look like that!
I may sound angry to the Turkish readers, but in fact all I say is said in a tongue in cheek manner, it's a shame that my sense of sarcasm is not appreciated correctly.
Maybe I should start to use more smileys, something I really don't like

For instance, the "History of Aghvank" from Movses Kaghankatouatsi is the most important and complete source for the long disappeared nation also known as the Albanians of Caucasus, who are abused by "Azeris" as one of their countless(!) ancestral nations to justify their illegitimate presence on Armenian territory.

If time permits I will quote him to show how the "Azeris" twist history.

[imported_Hellektor]

The Whole World is Turkish

Hellektor you think you are the man don't you. I encourage you to read outside the box that is what your parents and grandparents and what other misinformation fellow Armenians tell you about the Turks.

First of all let me tell you that the most common thing Turks do is to project their negative traits on Armenians, from accusing them of genocide to rejecting their being indigenous people of the land they occupy, etc.
Then the presumptions and stereotyping is truly sensational.
Hey, I'm not a descendant of the survivors of the genocide, Shah Abbas forced us to leave our home in 1604 which was in its form a kind of genocide itself, but since what happened next was generally positive, we do not hold a grudge and feel OK. I have already explained this with more detail, I won't repeat it here.

So, it's not what my parents and grandparents have told me. In this country, unlike what you might think, we have not been subject to the same brain damage as in your fascist country, I discovered the facts through reading real history, I'm sorry you are not able to see the reality.

It's obvious from your post how confused you are and how all the illogical defecation they have forced down your throats have become a kind of "reality" for you.

I suggest that Turks have contributed to society and civilization maybe Armenians have done more in terms of their contributions to civilization. But when you say the only contribution of the Turks is nothing more than death, destruction, rape, pillage, plunder and genocide.Maybe you should read this...
Maybe it will change your indented view on Turkey and her 'apparent lack' of contributions to the world.

I haven’t read this yet, but a quick glance confirmed what I had expected.
You really have no shame, do you?
Not only you claim all the ancient nations as being related to Turks but you steal all the Iranian scientists and claim they were Turks.
Birouni, Farabi, Razi… were all Iranians as their names clearly indicate. How dare you claim they were Turks. Shame on you, shame, shame. You claim Tabriz and Maragheh as well. Where does this end? Who is not Turkish after all?
From Native Americans to Urartu Armenians, Etruscans, Babylonians, Sumerians, Achaemenids, Greeks, Medes, Lydians, Thracians, Manni, Aratta, Utiks, Aghvank (Albanians of the Caucasus), Parthians, Martians, Jupiterians, Out of this Universians, Parallel Universians, Pre-Big Bangians, DAMMIT who the hell is not Turkish? Civilization envy or a desperate attempt to justify your illegitimate presence on other people’s land?

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...s#Anthropology
"According to Lev Gumilev in his accredited work entitled 1,000 years around the Caspian, the Oguz in the anthropological (racial) category were Caucasoid (Europoid)."
"Elements of both Caucasoid and Mongoloid strains are evident in some."

Again, you play the race card which I always have refused to do.
I have already expressed what I think of the Turkish race many times, it's in the "Challenge..." thread. It's not about race, you search for it if you wish, I won't repeat this here either, because my replies become too long.
But as I click this link, the whole "accredited"ness (if one could say!) of this article melts in front of my eyes like dog xxxx under a heavy rain on sidewalks of a European city.

"Azerbaijanis of the Republic of Azerbaijan and the South Azerbaijan region of Iran"

Man! This is Pan-Turkist garbage. Why don't you get it?
Believe me, I do want to prepare a complete article about "Azerbaijan" and Azarbaijan (Aturpatekan), but it will take up an enormous amount of time. I hope I'll find the time to do it, although I know you are so badly brainwashed that you won't accept it.

Every historian (and geographical historian) from Strabbo, Pliny, Ptolemy... to Arab and Persian historians Balazari, Massoudi, Tabari, Dinvari... to Armenian historians from Khorenatsi, Pavstos Buzand, Agatangeghos to Kaghankatouatsi... have provided humanity with undeniable HISTORICAL facts, where there is absolutely no question regarding the separateness, duality, “unrelatedness”, call it what you want, between the REAL Azarbaijan (Aturpatekan) and the land north of the Arax River in racial, linguistic, religious, cultural and national terms.
Your problem is you are so convinced of a Mafioso thug such as Ziya Buniatov's bullxxxx, written in 1965 that you are unable to accept the real historians.

It's obvious you didn't read what I said earlier but like it or not:

A nation called "Azeri" has NEVER EXISTED throughout human history.

Azari is a term used by Arab historians to describe the LANGUAGE of the people of real Azarbaijan (Aturpatekan), north-west of Iran and ALWAYS south of the Arax River. It was a language of the PERSIAN family of languages called Pahlavi. The dialect spoken in Aturpatekan was called Pahlavi e Azari, to distinguish it from other Pahlavi dialects. Later when the people of Aturpatekan were forced to become speakers of Turkish, the word Azari was wrongly attributed to the Turkish dialect of these people, AND NEVER TO THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES.

As to your name calling of the Turks well this is just showing everyone who is not a Armenian what the typical Armenian in the diaspora is nationalistic, hateful, racist, uncompromising and has to resort to the childish tactics of name calling when someone has the gut to be a little critical of him.

I said it a million times, I'll say it again:
How come Turks can say such offensive crap:
"A nation lived under the reign of Turks for more than 4 hundred years...then betrayed them during the ww1..then they claim there's genocide..a nation disloyal to its master..a nation deserves to be sent to hell..a nation nothing but a problem for the earth Victory for TURKS..."
-Master of Revenge
and I am not entitled to counter it?
Don't you see how insolent this garbage is? What is it with you guys and your pride and superiority complex?
Whatever I have said thus far will in no way amount to:
"a nation disloyal to its master..a nation deserves to be sent to hell"
Do you become temporarily blind to what Turks say, just as you become unperceptive that the Armenian Genocide is an undeniable FACT, backed by a mountain of evidence one person's life would not suffice to study it all?

You are probably right before the Eastern Anatolia was probably Armenia

So this means xxxx you , just kidding, don't get mad!

but you don't live there anymore its not your land anymore its part of Turkey and will not be handed to Nationalist Armenians with a dream a pan-Armenia or Greater Armenia.

May I ask you why the Armenians don't live in their homeland?
May I ask you why it's not our land anymore?
Don't you know it was the result of genocide and forced turkification that took our land from us?

The murdering thieves who broke into my house and raped and slaughtered my entire family are not, and will never be the legitimate owners of my house and nothing can change that.

The "pan-Armenian" bullxxxx is yet another example of your psychosis called projection.

Its like Hitler wanted a grossdeutchland (Big Germany) and people like bismarck wanted kleinedeutchland (Small Germany).

Bullxxxx! What the xxxx are you bullxxxxting about?
How confused and delusional are you?
How do you relate such incomparable ideas? It's just like saying excrement is also a kind of diamond! I don't believe you are that stupid.
Please take this crap back, it's an insult to your own intelligence and I won't even comment it.

The bottom line is valid international treaties guarantee Turkey her current boarders no Armenian who betrayed Armenia by living in the otherside of the world will change that.

The treaty of Sèvres is one such valid treaty, signed by the loser Turkey and Armenia and the victorious nations, the Lausanne treaty on the contrary was not signed by Armenia and was imposed on us through treacherous dealings of the United Kingdom of the Greatest Turkish-Phallus Suckers and Soviets.
Besides, Christapor the great brain of Dashnaktsoutioun said "the borders drawn by powers are there to be torn apart" or something like that.
We have liberated Artsakh thus far. It's only 2 or 3 % of our 90% occupied land, but it's a start!

You are clearly the product of Armenian hate. Whats that more childish name calling. I find it so funny I mean WHO is going to kick the Turks in Turkey(numbering more than 50 million) back to central asia?Turkey is now our historical homeland we have been here for 1000 years. I think you'll find that Turkey is becoming more and more loved by people the west. They are realising that the Turks are not going to invade Europe. International investment in Turkey is skyrocketing, that is clear evidence to show the West likes Turkey and this like/love is forever increasing.

"Turkey is now our historical homeland "
See how phuked up your brain is? NOW cannot be HISTORICAL.
Turkey is "founded" on my historical homeland and we were living there since the dawn of history and we had at least 5000 years of civilization before you invaded 1000 years ago and destroyed my home and killed us for a thousand years till there was no more of us and more than 50 million of you. Had there not been you, there would be 30 to 40 million Armenians living in their homeland.

You are clearly a blind moron. Yes the Azerbeijani's never had a nation due to Iranian and Russian interferance but now they do. The Azeri's in Iran are a different ETHNIC entity from ethnic Persians who only make up 51% of the Iranian population when you look at any website reporting demographics this will be confirmed. Even the CIA factbook mentions that the Azeri's are a different ethnic entity from the Persians. Have you forgotten that the Turks passed through Iran to get to Turkey and the Turks as they are like to mix with the locals. If you deny that the fact that Azeri's are a people distinct from Persians then you are a racist. I'm not promoting any pan-Turkic message I was just stating the fact that the Turkic people that are the Azeri's are content with living in Iran.

This is such bogus Pan-Turkist crap it defies logic.
Aturpatekan existed at least since after the death of Alexander.
After Alexander's victory over Darius III and the fall of the Achemenid empire, Iran came under the Seleucid rule soon after Alexander's death. However, a satrap named Atropat (Atropates) established an independent state in the northwest region of Iran (known as Median Iran and always south of the Arax River) which from then on was called Aturpayegan or Aturpategan (in Old Persian or Parthian) after him.
I won't go into detail what Russians were doing back then.

Haha OMG yes your right aren't you. You discovered the truth I mean scientists and historians haven't claimed things like that. Infact I have never heard anything so insane hypothesised about another nation. Remind me who's land did the Azari's 'steal'? Let me guess Armenia is it? So what if they were called Tatars, Black people were called Nig*** back in the day it just shows how racist people were. How about the entire Americas, the Europeans stole land off the Natives.

Delusion, delusion added to confusion...
"Black people were called Nig***"!!!! What kind of argument is this?
What? You consider Tatar an insult? They were called Tatars not to be looked down upon, it was their ethnic appellation.
The America cliché also comes to justify the Turkish occupation of Armenia and to lessen the gravity of the Genocide.
Let the Natives take care of their problem, right now I have more of my own.
This website is called armeniangenocide.com not nativeamericangenocide.com
BTW, I read in several Turkish websites that the "scientific" researches show that the Tursk and the Native Americans share 70% of DNA and kind of present themselves as victims of genocide!!
This is ridiculous, after you enter EU and destroy the European Civilization and turkify all the Europeans, you are going to claim land from Americans.
Chimpanzees are about 99% human yet they are not.

Now theres a problem its our sacred mountain now. Infact if it is the most important symbol of Armenia why don't any Armenians go and visit it. Why aren't Armenians screaming on the boarder with Turkey 'let me see my Ararat'?

Ay, ay, ay, ay... Are you really that ignorant!
Would you allow us to climb our holy mountain?
Sometimes yes (recently), most of the times no. Don't tell me you didn't know this.

Please tell me WHO is going to change Turkey's current land boarders. America?

We've seen them all come and go:
The Assyrians, the Romans, the Persians, the Byzantines, The Arabs, the Turks of all colors, the Soviets...
All these empires invaded Armenia, killed, ravaged, pillaged and plundered us. They cut Armenia into pieces and brought every calamity imaginable and otherwise. Yet they are all gone and we still resist.
The American empire will fall sooner than you can imagine. America is a paper tiger completely dependant on oil. When ther's no more oil the Americans will not survive, because they cannot walk to Ralph's or any other supermarket to buy bread. They have to use their cars, so they will starve.
Come on, have some sense of humor, you know what I mean.

I hope America invades Iran and gives the ethnic Azari's a Autonomous region like Kurdestan has in Iraq.

This is so fascist that almost renders me speechless.
But get this in your head:
You can jump from the Empire State, you can grow wings and fly, you can lick your elbow, you can kneel and pound the floor with your fists, you can howl to the moon but you cannot change the fact that the Turkish speaking Iranians are not related to the bogus nation north of Arax historically and that a nation called "Azeri" has NEVER EXISTED throughout human history.

[imported_Hellektor]

It don't matter who said it!

Hellektor

I wouldnt rely on Shule Perinchek. She is the wife of DOgu Perincek. I think you guys know him from this summer in Switzerland. He held a meeting in Lousanne to commamorate the treaty of Lausanne, where he said "Armenian allegations are a big Emperialist Lie".

Man, why don't you get what I'm trying to say?
It's not about who said those things, it's about the fact that every modern, cultural, economical, architectural, etc., concept in Ottoman was introduced by the Armenians.

If you have a doubt about any of those names presented by Şule Perinçek, then go and check for their biographies, I hope you'll find them in Turkey.
I can assure you everyone of them is real and there are countless more that even I discover everyday.

[maral_m79]

I'm sorry I think you have made a big mistake in your statement. I will accept it as a mistake because your knowledge of Islam isn't too great.

But Sahih Bukhari wrote a many books of the Prophet Mohammed's hadiths. The other people that wrote up these books of hadith were Sahih Muslim and Sunan Abu-Dawud.

Abu Huraira was just one of the witness who witnessed the Prophet Mohammed say this. Abu Huraira is not some who wrote up the hadith.



http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8255/hadith8od.png



I'm sorry I do not follow what your trying to say here.

I meant to say, Who was the one who wrote than Hadith after he heard it from the Prophet ?
Cosmos referred to Al-Bukhari, and you referred to Abu Huraira .

So did Al- Bukhari heard it from Abu Huraira who in turn hear it from Muhamed ?

[ A'n (from) abu huraira , a'n (from) al rasuol Muhamed. .., that's how they refer to the chain of reference of hadith, as far as I know]. It's difficult to me to explain it in english, I hope you got what I was saying.

Or it was two different sources who heard it from Muhamed. That's what I meant.

[TurQ]

Maral


In the science of Hadith there is the chain of Narration. In general the last person who actually heard the hadith from the prophet is mentioned. But the whole chain of narration is recorded(along with the relation among those narrators, like student teacher relation, and the level of their interaction/relation is also recorded which is a sub branch of Hadith called as Rijal). Ebu Huraira(The companion of the Prophet) heard the hadith from Prophet. He was among the first hadith masters in Islamic History. He tought the hadiths to his students, his students later become teachers and teach those hadith to their students etc etc. The chain of narration is recorded as the hadith is tought from one generation to the next. 200 hundred years later Buhari learned this narration and the chain of narration went on. This chain of narration still goes on today a student of Hadith is registered to this chain. But most of the hadith related studies(in terms of narration) finished by 15th century because Scholars agreed that there has no hadith left that was analyzed. Buhari's study is a corner stone, becaue it was the first study that was indexed and categorized in a unique book. By then the hadith schools were scattered and not all the schools knew all the hadiths. For example one shcool were only experts of 100 hadiths, they had no autority to comment on other hadiths etc. Buhari's work was a centralized study that categorized hadiths in one book so that ordinary people can access diffierent Hadiths on different issues at the same time.

That particular Hadith does not refer to Turks, those who support that explanation are either Wahhabists, or Arab Nationalists or Turkish Ateists.

I meant to say, Who was the one who wrote than Hadith after he heard it from the Prophet ?
Cosmos referred to Al-Bukhari, and you referred to Abu Huraira .

So did Al- Bukhari heard it from Abu Huraira who in turn hear it from Muhamed ?

[ A'n (from) abu huraira , a'n (from) al rasuol Muhamed. .., that's how they refer to the chain of reference of hadith, as far as I know]. It's difficult to me to explain it in english, I hope you got what I was saying.

Or it was two different sources who heard it from Muhamed. That's what I meant.

[TurQ]

Buhari lived about 200 years later after Phophet Muhammed(Pbuh). He himself was of Turkish origin lived in Buhara which is in Ozbekistan.
Buhari collected all of the hadith that were alreday being studied in Hadith schools and put 6000 of them in an organized book and so that any ordinary muslim can access it and read it. Those times Persians and Turks were becoming Muslims, and they had hard time to access a Hadith school in their native lands in order to learn hadith from reliable resources. In order to respond that necessity Buhari worked his famous Hadith book known as the Al-Buhari. What makes this book unique is that its content is indexed and categorized so that ordinary people can easily access it and learn hadith..


Concensus among the scholars is that that particular Hadith refers to the nation of Yejuj and Mejuj what will dominate the world in its last days before the final destruction(Kiyamet)

I meant to say, Who was the one who wrote than Hadith after he heard it from the Prophet ?
Cosmos referred to Al-Bukhari, and you referred to Abu Huraira .

So did Al- Bukhari heard it from Abu Huraira who in turn hear it from Muhamed ?

[ A'n (from) abu huraira , a'n (from) al rasuol Muhamed. .., that's how they refer to the chain of reference of hadith, as far as I know]. It's difficult to me to explain it in english, I hope you got what I was saying.

Or it was two different sources who heard it from Muhamed. That's what I meant.

[crazyt]

That particular Hadith does not refer to Turks, those who support that explanation are either Wahhabists, or Arab Nationalists or Turkish Ateists.

How could Wahhabists change the hadith? No one can change the hadiths because they were in circulation across the world way before Arab nationalism or the Wahhabist movements began.

[TurQ]

They dont change it they misinterpret it for their own purposes.

The Hadith refers to people living in the areas where Turks/Mongols/Chinese were living. The hadith mentions a nation that will dominate world in their number and power by the end of all times. They say the Hadith refers to Turks(since they oppose Ottoman Khalifa).

How could Wahhabists change the hadith? No one can change the hadiths because they were in circulation across the world way before Arab nationalism or the Wahhabist movements began.

[maral_m79]

Hellektor

I wouldnt rely on Shule Perinchek. She is the wife of DOgu Perincek. I think you guys know him from this summer in Switzerland. He held a meeting in Lousanne to commamorate the treaty of Lausanne, where he said "Armenian allegations are a big Emperialist Lie".

Small correction to you ... His SLOGAN exactly was "The Armenian Genocide is An International Lie".

It was USED A LOT, in the demonistrations outside the Turkish university where the conference about the Ottoman Armenians held in Ankara Sept. 2005.

And I don't share your opinion that one can't RELY on what Shule Perinchek say specially in this very study. It would only "increase" the importance of this admition to facts by a woman who's husband think that Armenian Genocide is A Lie .....