Turkish View of Themselves

[maral_m79]

Theres nothing new there!
Yes there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Armenians aren't the only people that have had to flee their homeland from persecution.

This is one of the biggest generalised vaguest sentences I have ever seen. So are you saying that every Turk that has left Turkey has left their homeland just to seek the economic advantages of the West? I mean I must, have been dreaming when the Greek Cypriots started killing the Turkish Cypriots, I guess there arent 120,000 Turkish Cypriots in the UK who fled Cyprus because of Greek violence.

Some Turks where forced into exile.

I won't respond to you, I just won't waist my time guessing who I'm talking to, former neutral or crazy T....

[maral_m79]

Daispora comes from a Greek word synonymous to dispersion, to scatter, to sow. Although used extensively for the Jews outside Palestine and for forceful exiles or escapees from Genocide it also has the broader meaning of "the breaking up and scattering of a people " or "A dispersion of a people from their original homeland" regardless of immigratory or migratory reasons.

So you are suggesting that each Indian live in UK is part of the "Indiean Diaspora" , ech Chinese live in USA is part of "Chinses Diaspora" , each Arab live in France is part of "Arab Diaspora" and so on, and on and on ......

That's silly !

[hitite]

So you are suggesting that each Indian live in UK is part of the "Indiean Diaspora" , ech Chinese live in USA is part of "Chinses Diaspora" , each Arab live in France is part of "Arab Diaspora" and so on, and on and on ......

Exactly !

That's silly !

No maral. Silly is to repond before consulting any dictionaries before replying about the meaning of a word. Full respect...

[maral_m79]

theres a turk world,where nobody can seperate us

This same pan-Turanic dream (Pan-Turkic) was the "REASON" they got into WWI , that was the reason that they uprooted my grandparents from their home, to bring more Turks to live on Armenian Lands, after Armenians rejection to be Islamized and Turkified !!!

And that what had happen, but Ottomans CUP lost the war ... and lost everything but the stegma of Genocide ....

[1.5 million]

I think that it is quite funny that many (even somewhat serious Turks) take the view that Pan-Turanism and rascism on the part of Turks was a non-factor in the Armenain Genocide when the evidence for it is still here today and very strong (see posts of the various Turks in this thread and elsewhere). The fact that there wasn't a long history of such (prior to the mid-late 19th century) and that such sentiments sprang up "late" in the scheme of European nationalist sentiments is a false point - as German nationalism too was late in comming - but like the Turkish hyper-nationalism came on most strong (in some ways in reaction to national sentiment and ambition of others and thus was more ferverent) and resulted in the most barbaric atrocities of modern times. Isn't it odd that many Turks deny these factors yet the evidence for such is strong even today?

[hitite]

hitite can you believe maral?

The the thread entitled Dictator Mustafa Kemal is Jewish, on the 11-04-2005, 06:11 PM
Oh there was me thinking that the Turks back in the day were said to originally have green-eyes and that was by the Chinese.

Oh yeah Turks come in all shapes and forms. Black, brown, blue and green eyes. Black, brown, blonde and red hair. Oriental looking to European looking to Black Turks. (I've seen a few black Turks in Turkey)

I am sure Maral was not making a rascist remark, it is not her general attitude as far as I can see.

As for what Turks really look like (which is waaay off topic, I know) it would be better to look at Turkey and not the Turkish Diaspora (sorry maral but I had to use the word) to have a better understanding of the looks and you will see there are all sorts. If jews were blond with blue eyes that would mean a few of my aunties and grandmother are jews, which for me would be a cool prospect but armageddon for pious grandma.

[maral_m79]

I am sure Maral was not making a rascist remark, it is not her general attitude as far as I can see.

As for what Turks really look like (which is waaay off topic, I know) it would be better to look at Turkey and not the Turkish Diaspora (sorry maral but I had to use the word) to have a better understanding of the looks and you will see there are all sorts. If jews were blond with blue eyes that would mean a few of my aunties and grandmother are jews, which for me would be a cool prospect but armageddon for pious grandma.

First of all, I did not understand what UKTurk wanted to prove or what was his point of disscussing whatever I wrote like 3 weeks ago on another thread ... And as you concluded, I wasn't trying to make any racist remarks by saying that, someone posted a picture of Ataturk ... and I commented that it's not often to see a Turk with green-eyes fair hair .... What does that have to do with this thread ... That I couldn't understand.

Anyway, what I was referring to, was the "Generalized" features of looks for certain group of people ... Armenians often have certain features, one can almost tell by looks sometimes that a person is Armenian ... that doesn't mean that they are no green,blue, brown eyed , fair , blond or red hair Armenians, but the domenant features can be distinguished...

Now, Jews (as a race not religion) are Semetic people ... so those too have generalized features, and green-eyes, fair hair is NOT one of those ....

to summrize I wasn't trying to "Confirm" that he was a jew or not ... because that have nothing to do with anything .....

[1.5 million]

TurQ - nice post (#8) - a few brief comments - Turkey is changing - and I have seen this - the differences between what I saw (and heard and participated in sometimes intense Raki fueled coversations) in the early 90s and what I have seen and heard during my last two visits in 02 and 03 were at times striking. In fact I could see many changes just between 02 and 03 - however what I saw in some cases was more conservatism (Islamic dress and influence) and other things that might cause quite a bump in your rosy view of the future.

Which brings me to another related point - some Turks - like (I speculate) yourself - when they think of Turkey and talk about it and tell us about it etc (and this is a good thing for you to tell and us to hear...) - well - I really wonder how much of a slice you really are exposed to (and this while always an issue is becoming much more so). I think a great deal of (rural/Eastern etc) Turkey is (essentially) not changing at all and hasn't changed much (and these disenfranchised people may never have fully bought into Kemalism in the first place...think about that for a bit..). You (and most) - I think - are talking about the more cosmopolitan (Western) parts of Turkey - and here I would mostly agree (still with mention of the caveat about increased Islamic influences)...in fact I think its quite revolutionary (in a number of areas) - changes in how Turks live and think - think of themselves - think of their relations with others - the types of discussions they have - the approach to life - how women can live (on their own for instance) - things that we take for grated here in (most of) the West - but would have been thought perhaps unbelievable in Turkey only a decade ago - are happening now in Turkey (and please give us some more specific examples as I know that you can). I do think there has been and is a great deal of change occuring...however the danger is twofold - 1) that there will be a backlash from reactionary elements (that in the case of hyper-nationalists have not gone away and in the case of Islamists are growing in power/influence and have outside help...). Much like when Yugoslavia broke up - or the Soviet Union - the bindling force of blind Kemalism is loosening its grip (people are no longer cowed to say and believe the rhetoric of such...and they are finding that they think differently about many things...)...and societal elements that had been supressed and denied are comming out and growing bolder (Kurds for instances...but this is just the tip of the iceburg i think...)...however not only on the liberal/left - but the reactionary as well - and among groups with [discovered?] [seperate] identity - and the more the liberal western cosmopolitan outside influence becomes prevelant the more the other (reactionary faction[s]) will seeth and boil. I predict interesting (and very dangerous) times for Turkey's future (even if at the same time agreeing with your likely more positive/hopeful outlook...)...however there will ceertainly be a complexity to your problems as there has never been before - can your nation - your government - and your (very young and incompletely conditioned/educated) people survive it? Will your government - that has never had to deal with any of these sort of issues (or even ever has had to be at all competent in any way - and in fact that it has not ever been is by design...) outside of the standard - supress any dissension with use of overwhelming force - show who is boss...etc - can they adapt? Can they deal with the multifaceted society when all they have known is the uni-society? - and will leaders arise who can lead (and not be like dear Kemal...suicide for you now...can't just kill those who don't agree with you - no?) and can avoid the tremendous schisms I see in your future from cracking and busting apart most bloodily? Capiche?

never got any comment on this post from anyone...quite surprised...but then again our two thinking Turks (TurQ and Sythian) seem to have left us...perhaps this post scared them away?

[TurQ]

No I just dont have much time 1.5, sorry about it.

I followed the discussions a bit . As I said before fruitless discussions wont go anywhere this is why I look at the forum once in a while. This is more like quarrel or personalized fights. This is for both sides.

I am gonna post a reply for this in few days(hopefully)

never got any comment on this post from anyone...quite surprised...but then again our two thinking Turks (TurQ and Sythian) seem to have left us...perhaps this post scared them away?

[1.5 million]

TurQ - from my perspective there is no "comprimise position" concerning the Armenian Genocide. It is clear to me that the historical facts support it being considered a Genocide and essentially support the Armenian and internationally accepted positions and that the bulk of the "Turkish perspective" is pure rubbish - disingenuouse and deceptive and designed to obscure truth and protect the guilty. That being said I am entirely open to legitimate and intelligent discussions concerning events of and preceeding, following and surrounding the Genocide that might have been causative or contributing - and better understanding of multiple perspectives is needed iMO - and of course I am willing and interested to discuss and learn more about his period of history in general. Likewise I welcome presentations and discussions of contemporary and historical Armenian and Turkish events and perspectives - culture, society, politics - that sort of thing....however, fundementally, a perspective that denies the Armenian Genocide is unwelcome in my eyes as it is blatantly false and contrimands the evidence and is obstrufication not discussion of real issues or history. The record (of extremely poor and entirely unsupported posts) from most Turkish posters here speaks for themselves in this regard.