Turkish View of Themselves

[TurQ]

I dont think there will be comprimise on this issue. We do not even agree on things that happen today, it is not logical to expect to comprimise on historical events. One other reason is that, this is part of Armenian identity. You can not be an Armenian if you comprimise on this issue. So discussing such an issue is not logical. What I dont understand and accept is to impose an idea/claim to the other side.

There are some post here by some fellow Turks, they really do not seriously post those. Like UKTurk/Neutral, he is just being ironic, and contraversial. Eventhough this is obvious you guys really say "You see Turks believe what CUP believe". At the end of the day everybody goes back to their own fotresses with a firm belief in their thesis. I personally do not want to spent my time for such discussions which will make Armenians firmer in their stance.

TurQ - from my perspective there is no "comprimise position" concerning the Armenian Genocide. It is clear to me that the historical facts support it being considered a Genocide and essentially support the Armenian and internationally accepted positions and that the bulk of the "Turkish perspective" is pure rubbish - disingenuouse and deceptive and designed to obscure truth and protect the guilty. That being said I am entirely open to legitimate and intelligent discussions concerning events of and preceeding, following and surrounding the Genocide that might have been causative or contributing - and better understanding of multiple perspectives is needed iMO - and of course I am willing and interested to discuss and learn more about his period of history in general. Likewise I welcome presentations and discussions of contemporary and historical Armenian and Turkish events and perspectives - culture, society, politics - that sort of thing....however, fundementally, a perspective that denies the Armenian Genocide is unwelcome in my eyes as it is blatantly false and contrimands the evidence and is obstrufication not discussion of real issues or history. The record (of extremely poor and entirely unsupported posts) from most Turkish posters here speaks for themselves in this regard.

[1.5 million]

TurQ - the rub is - won't you really feel silly (and perhaps ashamed) when Turkey finally does admit the truth - meanwhile you have exerted such mental effort (and soul damaging energy) to deny it.

I catagorically reject your contention that unconditional affirmation of the Armenian Genocide is purly an "Armenian perspective" and that being an Armenian means that one can not be logical concerning this issue etc. What you say can equally be applied to Jews concerning the Holocaust. Are you likewise acusing them and are you likewise upset at the lack of balance in presenting the Nazi perspective on this issue?

[TurQ]

Why should I feel ashamed? If one day Turkey accepts those claims, that would be the state decision not mine. What I know is not coming from Turkish education system. YOu can summarize those things that were taught us in just 3-4 sentences thats it. And it is just recently(may be 10 years most) books on this issue is being published(both against and supporting Turkish official view).

One hadicap on the Armenian side is Turks only have *official* view on this issue. If somebody is against Armenian claims that person is simply a *blind* supporter of *Turkish* view(vice versa).

I do not think there is a reason for me to feel ashamed if Turkey accepts Armenian claims.
I personally do know, and am sorry for what have Armenians went through, and I am sure most of the Turks would feel the same if they learn first hand what they have experienced. I strongly believe this is not the case for the majority of the Armenians. I hope I will be proven wrong.

We, Turks, simply did not suffer during WW I, and were just barbaric nation waiting for the *moment* to exterminate Armenians, according to most of the Armenian activists(like Harout Sassounian).


[QUOTE=1.5 million]TurQ - the rub is - won't you really feel silly (and perhaps ashamed) when Turkey finally does admit the truth - meanwhile you have exerted such mental effort (and soul damaging energy) to deny it.

I

[Turanist]

Why would If one day Turkey accepts those claims?

Isnt democracy for to have different opinion?

[Kharpert]

Turkey is a republic, not a democracy.

[1.5 million]

TurQ - I will leave it to your own concience as to the scincerity of your thoughts/feelings on this matter. Yet to me it is highly aparent that you do not appreciate the distinction of the kind of mass slaughter and terror experienced by the Armenians FOR NO JUSTIFYABLE REASON!!!!

While you say that you understand - the fact that you continually attempt to bring counter arguments - such as Turks suffered too (well so did Germans in WWII did they not? Yet - is this a case for denying the Holocaust). You see while you are better then the blatant racist haters such as Turanist and Kemalist90210 and their ilk - it is also clear to me that you are a genocider denier and as such are contemptable.

I have acknowledged much of this history of Turkish/Muslim tragedies and understand that many Turks experienced loss during these times. i also understand how and why the attitudes of the CUP and even of common Turks (and the influx of refugees from outside Anatolia influenced etc) - however I just as well ackowldege the hardships of the German people in the 1920s and 1930s and their suffering and their looking for extreme answers and scapegoats to their problems...again - THIS CAN NOT BE CONSIDERED AS JUSTIFICATION FOR GENOCIDE NOR IN ANY WAY CAN SUCH BE USED AS APOLOGY FOR IT!!!!

The evidence supports the fact that Anatolian Armenians could overwhelmingly be considerewd as loyal and peaceful citizens. Justbecause they were Christian and relatively prosperous and just because they wished for political and social changes/redresses and because this was resented by the Ottoman ruling elite as well as the population is again NO JUSTIFICATION!

Likewise - that there had existed Armenain revolutionary parties and brigands (not always the same thing) - - well the CUP was a revolutionary party (and the Armenains worked in conjuntion with them - until they were betrayd) - likewise there were pockets of Armenian brigands - even ones who commited cruel acts against Muslims - however it is proven that there were Kurdish and Turkish brigands roaming the countryside doing this and more - it is clear that the existance of such brigands and the fact of the break aways of outlying minorities from the EMpire - were used as excuses for taking actions against Armenians. There was no military justification - this is hogwash - and the German reports proove this beyond a doubt. Likewise even your issue of Turks wanting revenge...well i am sorry and I sympathize for the many Turks who suffered at the hands of Greeks, Bulgaraisn, Russians and so on - HOWEVER AGAIN - I REJECT ALL OF THESE FACTORS AS JUSIFICATION FOR GENOCIDE!

And a genocide of the Armenians did occur - deliberate and pre-planned and the evidence fully supports this. So no - I cannot condone that you deny it - based on these other facotrs - enough is enough - be a man. Otherwise I will certainly continue to condemn you and Turks like you.

[TurQ]

As I said before, my sufferings necessarily degrade yours? Check out your fellow Armenians about what Turks actually suffered. We were all OK according to them.

I am not justifying anything(may be it is 10th time I am saying this). Yours is higher or lower this does not make any change. The important thing is those people(Turks/Muslims) percieved that they were on the verge of extermination. Those who are from Balkans and Caucusia already experienced it(check out demographics before and after wwI and Balkan wars). After 90 years I still believe that those agression by Russians and Europeans were to exterminate Turks/Muslims, and it was the last crusade. The British commander(Allenby) approached to the tomb of Selahaddin Eyyubi and said "Selahaddin, wake up, we are here again" when Jerusalem was occupied by the Brits. It was CUPs fault to enter the war, it does not change the fact that Europeans and RUssians were to exterminate all of the Turkish existence. We had a lot more problems and Armenian problem was only one of them. This does not justify anything towards Armenians. I am sure they will burn in hell for those crimes.

I know most of the anatolian, especially those who are from central Anatolia or western part of the east region had nothing to do with these events. But this still does not change the fact that the outside powers abused the strategic existence of Armenians in Anatolia. The French and Russians were using every means to lead these events to the point of no return.

As for the German comparison, at least the nation was supportive of their regime. And Germany was not attacked it started the war, as opposed, the Ottomans were constantly under attack and the power hunger emperialists took advantage of Multi-Cultural structure of Ottoman state. And for the CUP avarage people had nothing to do with CUP. I dont know how you can compare the German experience with Turkish experience.


QUOTE=1.5 million]TurQ - I will leave it to your own concience as to the scincerity of your thoughts/feelings on this matter. Yet to me it is highly aparent that you do not appreciate the distinction of the kind of mass slaughter and terror experienced by the Armenians FOR NO JUSTIFYABLE REASON!!!!

While you say that you understand - the fact that you continually attempt to bring counter arguments - such as Turks suffered too (well so did Germans in WWII did they not? Yet - is this a case for denying the Holocaust). You see while you are better then the blatant racist haters such as Turanist and Kemalist90210 and their ilk - it is also clear to me that you are a genocider denier and as such are contemptable.

I have acknowledged much of this history of Turkish/Muslim tragedies and understand that many Turks experienced loss during these times. i also understand how and why the attitudes of the CUP and even of common Turks (and the influx of refugees from outside Anatolia influenced etc) - however I just as well ackowldege the hardships of the German people in the 1920s and 1930s and their suffering and their looking for extreme answers and scapegoats to their problems...again - THIS CAN NOT BE CONSIDERED AS JUSTIFICATION FOR GENOCIDE NOR IN ANY WAY CAN SUCH BE USED AS APOLOGY FOR IT!!!!

The evidence supports the fact that Anatolian Armenians could overwhelmingly be considerewd as loyal and peaceful citizens. Justbecause they were Christian and relatively prosperous and just because they wished for political and social changes/redresses and because this was resented by the Ottoman ruling elite as well as the population is again NO JUSTIFICATION!

Likewise - that there had existed Armenain revolutionary parties and brigands (not always the same thing) - - well the CUP was a revolutionary party (and the Armenains worked in conjuntion with them - until they were betrayd) - likewise there were pockets of Armenian brigands - even ones who commited cruel acts against Muslims - however it is proven that there were Kurdish and Turkish brigands roaming the countryside doing this and more - it is clear that the existance of such brigands and the fact of the break aways of outlying minorities from the EMpire - were used as excuses for taking actions against Armenians. There was no military justification - this is hogwash - and the German reports proove this beyond a doubt. Likewise even your issue of Turks wanting revenge...well i am sorry and I sympathize for the many Turks who suffered at the hands of Greeks, Bulgaraisn, Russians and so on - HOWEVER AGAIN - I REJECT ALL OF THESE FACTORS AS JUSIFICATION FOR GENOCIDE!

And a genocide of the Armenians did occur - deliberate and pre-planned and the evidence fully supports this. So no - I cannot condone that you deny it - based on these other facotrs - enough is enough - be a man. Otherwise I will certainly continue to condemn you and Turks like you.[/QUOTE]

[1.5 million]

TurQ there is a great deal to compare between the CUP/Turks/Ottoman Empire and the NAZIS/Germans of these periods. And in fact I could easily argue that the Turks participated to a much greater degree in the destruction and persecution of Armenians then the average German ever did in the Holocaust of the Jews.

And again - you are attempting to shift blame to outside Imperialistic powers - and their actions - well I don't accept this. Should we likewise blame the Holocaust on France and Britain for imposing the Versaille treaty on Germany. It is a cop out. Ottoman Empire was failing and (and Sultanate and Turkish governing elites) was not equipped to transition into modern world in a number of areas. That powers such as Russia and later Britain and France might try to take advantage was secondary - and in fact Britain had often been acting to support the Ottoman Empire - as had France which had been helping ottoman Empire financially after it defaulted on its international debt (due to wars and coorruption...) - again these things - as well as Turkish?Muslim refugee situation and suffering are tangental to the Armenain Genocide. They should be considered as part of the whole of course - but also in themselves - however the events leading to and comprising the Armenian Genocide are what we are addressing here in this forum and this is the grioevance of concern to Armenians. If you as a (Circassian) Turk or what have you wish to protest to the Russians concerning their actions - then that is a seperate matter. We can understand some aspects of what occured to these peoples as parrallel - but they are not the same - and the Armenain Genocide stands alone - both in its utter barbarity - its comprhensiveness - and the fact it occured by a State against its own population with no real military (or otherwise) justification (as in war or such). You accuse me/us of denying your tragedies and such...well I hve to say after 90 years of utter Turkish denial of what Turks did to Armenains that is really something that suddenly you make this an issue. Well I am sorry - it is not for me to acknowledge your peoples sufferings any more then I have and any more then we bemoan the terrible tragedy of the German people in WWII. Bottom line is that the CUP/Ottoman/Turkish state commited these atrocities againt innocent Armenian civilians and they destriyed the Armenain nation. Regardless of your denials that you are denying this - by consistantly making excuses, countercharges and attempting to offload blame - you are denying the truth of this matter.

[maral_m79]

Why would If one day Turkey accepts those claims?

Isnt democracy for to have different opinion?

Well , there is a Fact and there is a Lie ... Democracy have nothing to do with telling lies

[Turanist]

Turkey is a republic, not a democracy.

it is democratic. USA is republic does that not mean that it is democracy?