Turkish View of Themselves

[Turanist]

Turanist/UKTurk/Neutral

enough is enough, you having fun but these people are taking all these seriously and getting angry. I dont think there's a point for this.

For the Turan thing, all of the newly independent Turkic states were crushed under communism. MOst of them even do not feel that they are related with each other and dont have much national consiousness. In Kazakstan they dont even speak their own language but speak in Russian in the cities. I am concerned about those people in the sense that they should learn their language and cultural values. They are exposed to assimilation, the first and foremost important thing is to help them save their identity. Kirgiz and Ozbeks ahve deep problems, they dont like each other. We have more immediate problems to solve. At this moment we can have a unified Alphabet, and help them to stabilize their economy. Otherwise forget their independence.

And as far as the Azeris of Iran concerned, they wont do anything against the IRanian state. They have a national identity but they also see that they are part of Iranian culture( I have met a few). And after all they did not even react to Iran's support to Armenia, Iran openly supported and still supporting ongoing Armenian occupation of Azerbeyjan. Remember Hashimi Rafsanjani is an Azeri and was President(I dont know if he still is).

Iran's support for Armenia is not ideological, it is just both Iran and Armenia is isolated in that region and their only choice is to support each other. If Turkey increases its relation with Iran(trade etc, I know it is not trivial), Turkey will have the chance for further pressuring to Armenia to stop the occupation. Your strategy will push Iran to Armenian side and will not do any good for Azeris.

Anyways I know you are not being serious about the Turan thing, if you really were, you would first learn Turkish I think you should quit making them angry for no reason..

you think you funny. you called TurQ maybe you Armenian .

you also make talk down for Turan you sound like you not Turk.

also Azeris of Iran are slowly changing . should i show you what anti-Turanist say about Azeris of Iran.

[TurQ]

UKTurk please

I hope it was the case that they(The Azeris of Iran) reacted to Iranian policy towards Armenia. Unfortunatly it didnt happen, and after seeing Iranian Azeris I know it wont happen.

you think you funny. you called TurQ maybe you Armenian .

you also make talk down for Turan you sound like you not Turk.

also Azeris of Iran are slowly changing . should i show you what anti-Turanist say about Azeris of Iran.

[1.5 million]

hahaha - TurQ - boy do they have your number eh? TurQ - perhaps you are understanding just a bit with what we are dealing with here - forst of all - these Turans and Kemilists and UKTurks - are not joking - they are entirely serious in their racist xenophobic outlook. I apreciate you trying to talk some sense to them - but now you share our frustration - no one can talk sense to idiots such as these who are really too far gone to reason with. And yes - considering the great suffering experienced by our people and the fact that our nation has been destroyed - this is really no laughing matter. They make light of these tragedies - they have no respect or compassion - and they have no ability to even remotely understand the real issues and the real history that is at issue. It is useless attempt any real discussions with them. There presence here is a distraction - though it is illustrative of a very prevalent attitude and problem with the Turks. It is also very typical with these types (and I've seen this type of behavior/attitude from certain imature, ignorant and overly hyper nationalistic Armenians as well - that any questioning of their absolute faith automatically make you (being likewise a Turk) a traitor - a turncoat...and they seriously believe this. They are pathetic and beneath contempt.

Now - I have perhaps slung some harsh words your way - and I don't retract - howevr I certainly see you in a much different light. You are informed and understand somethign of these times - yet still you hesitate to fully accept the distinctiveness, the brutalness and harshness of the tragedy experienced by Armenians and you still cling to this belief that somehow the Armenians - clearly the victims here - somehow share in some responsibiity for thier fate - a conclusion that I as well as Genocide scholars completely reject. Becuase you think that we don't understand the complete history and appreciate the Turkish perspective (of the time) you think we discount suffering experienced by Turks (but not all of us are ignorant of these things and even though we may see them differently - this does nto mean that we reject or discount these things...howerver...) thus you justify not recognizing the Armenian tragedy (as Genocide which it is). Well I am sorry that you have chosen the easy and cowardly path - as I see it - but I do know that it takes quite a leap from your fettered perspective to just accept the facts (that I am not sure you are really entirely aware of) without automatically reaching for the excuse and justification. I don't know if your level of scincerety and appreciation of this issue is such that you will ever "come over" as it were...though I know of a number of other Turks who have - and I have been a part of their comming to certain realizations on this issue - but I do hope for the best. However in the meantime I will not let you off the hook so easy - and in fact my attempts to communicate with you and to properly educate you (yes) are more important in my mind then any exchange with your primative brthren.

[elendil]

The relations and alliances with Turkic republics are on level of military, goverment issues. You can see exchange students at university ( Istanbul Technical or Middle-East technical) or military schools especially land forces. However the people of these countries, though kin and bretheren, in terms of culture,language and racei lack the sense of unity across Middle Asia. Ofcourse if one looks at modern history of the Turkish nation(Asia) , the influence of Russia, China and communism is strongly experienced on account of Turkic tribes or goverments. Their culture and alphabet has pretty much been converted to Russian culture but people have roots and after the fall of communism this culture is slowly turning back. For example when you look at Özbekistan's army you can see Turkish(Turkey) produced American design jeeps, missile and missile aunchers (Turkish Engineered,Produced). Or the support of Cechens by ak-47, grenades- minor arms supply. Turkey is trying to establish a connection between these nations thus when the right time comes it will have a trump card on diplomatic level against Russia expect the support of America. A unification of Turkic cultures from Asia to Asia minor for now is a far possibility. The risks are too many, economic burden will be too great. But as I mentioned earlier if Turkey is denied acsess to EU, then it will stand no choice expect forming a Turkic alliance. As to people who think that it is not possible... If Turkey is negotiating for EU, anything is possible in the world
Seriously however it will be a must for Turkey to form such an alliance in case of failure of neg. with EU

[Gavur]

If you are still in good terms with USA
everyone knows US says jump Turkey will say how high.

[elendil]

If you are still in good terms with USA
everyone knows US says jump Turkey will say how high.

That was what I thought until America was denied soldier transportation across Turkey. Things are changing though slowly. New powers are rising in the world to make one polar two again. Where will Turkey stand? We should choose well. Very well. Obviously alliance with America has taken us where it will...From this point Turkey should sit down and form new policies about middle-east, Asia and China. Block economy and block policy are key to the survival at new era.. ( My opinion ofcourse) We should expand our relations with Russia which we are doing
in-fact. In years to come America will lose its influence on Turkey more and more... Strategy and conditions demand it....

[1.5 million]

Turkey is indeed in a very interesting situation East vs West...North vs South. Ultimatly it is likely that there is more to be gained - by all parties - for Turkish inclusion in the EU - but there are so very many potential derailments it will not be an easy road. Even if Turkey is not accepted into the EU - and again - many reasons why it may not cometo pass - it still is a member of NATO and will still be somewhat integrated into Europe - this will not change. Of course - if radical Islamists hold sway (remote though distinct possibility - and one can never say...particularly if Turkish Government remains inept and poor economic performance and societal divisions remain - they have a number of potential "ins") - anyway - this concept of a pan-Turkic union is an entirely unachievable pipe-dream held only by romantic notioned Turks from Turkey and by Turks such as UKTurk living safely away in the West with no clue as to what he is talking about. The various Turkic people accross Asia do not look to Turkey and "Turks" as their own - but at best as remote cousins. They see in Turkey a Western-European nation that is not them and in Turks the same. Sure - there is some recognition of Turkishness in a sense - but not really like the dreaming Turks in Turkey would believe. Many in these nations are drawn other ways - they have strong economic and otherwise bonds with Russia that will not be easily broken - if only because of geography and infrustructure alone...and those who wish to be free of this don't look to Turkey...a heathen Western nation which has already cast its lot - but to Iran and to pan-Islam...and these ties are currently orders of magnitude stronger then any Turkish connection - even if Turkey has been doing everything in its power to increase its influence - including by piping exclusively Turkish satellite TV into these nations all while Turks watch American and European soapoperas, tv sitcoms and movies...lol...yeah ...you guys really do have lots in common...not (andd they know it...unlike some of you pan-Turan without a clue dreamers...)

[1.5 million]

A unification of Turkic cultures from Asia to Asia minor for now is a far possibility. The risks are too many, economic burden will be too great.

This latter point is one to particualrly consider. While Turkey is more then happy to exert influence and to invite students and spread this idea of unity (ie for the Asian Turks to kow tow to Ankara..lol) - ultimatly they truly do not want to take on the very serious burdens of these places that are so far from the Anatolian plain. The economic burdens alone would absolutly sink Turkey and the payoffs would be few. And think of this - culturally you are worlds apart - and all of these other "Turks" see themselves as such secondarily (at best) - they have in no sense forgotten that they are some subgenre of Uzbeki or what have you - on and on - and this conflicts mightily with the Kemalist notions and indoctination - eh? ever thought of that aspect? ...and you think integrating "mountain Turks" has been difficult....lol

[elendil]

This latter point is one to particualrly consider. While Turkey is more then happy to exert influence and to invite students and spread this idea of unity (ie for the Asian Turks to kow tow to Ankara..lol) - ultimatly they truly do not want to take on the very serious burdens of these places that are so far from the Anatolian plain. The economic burdens alone would absolutly sink Turkey and the payoffs would be few. And think of this - culturally you are worlds apart - and all of these other "Turks" see themselves as such secondarily (at best) - they have in no sense forgotten that they are some subgenre of Uzbeki or what have you - on and on - and this conflicts mightily with the Kemalist notions and indoctination - eh? ever thought of that aspect? ...and you think integrating "mountain Turks" has been difficult....lol

While commenting on such a issue, first it should be taken into consideration that we are not talking about unification of countries and their borders as a whole but Turkic cultures. That is pretty much in the image of EU though it is based on nation-upper identity. A french is a french first then European. There is nothing more expected then an Ozbek first being an Ozbek then a Turk. Thus your comment regarding integration of Kurdish people to Turkey is irrevelant with the union we talk and think about, or if it is, I missed the point. About the economic burden, indeed it is a burden, but it is not like people of other Turkic countries will not work and such.... After a time they will manage themelves. Besides as I said I think the future is block economy, blockdefence and block policy. So it is worth it....

Turkey is indeed in a very interesting situation East vs West...North vs South. Ultimatly it is likely that there is more to be gained - by all parties - for Turkish inclusion in the EU - but there are so very many potential derailments it will not be an easy road. Even if Turkey is not accepted into the EU - and again - many reasons why it may not cometo pass - it still is a member of NATO and will still be somewhat integrated into Europe - this will not change. Of course - if radical Islamists hold sway (remote though distinct possibility - and one can never say...particularly if Turkish Government remains inept and poor economic performance and societal divisions remain - they have a number of potential "ins") - anyway - this concept of a pan-Turkic union is an entirely unachievable pipe-dream held only by romantic notioned Turks from Turkey and by Turks such as UKTurk living safely away in the West with no clue as to what he is talking about. The various Turkic people accross Asia do not look to Turkey and "Turks" as their own - but at best as remote cousins. They see in Turkey a Western-European nation that is not them and in Turks the same. Sure - there is some recognition of Turkishness in a sense - but not really like the dreaming Turks in Turkey would believe. Many in these nations are drawn other ways - they have strong economic and otherwise bonds with Russia that will not be easily broken - if only because of geography and infrustructure alone...and those who wish to be free of this don't look to Turkey...a heathen Western nation which has already cast its lot - but to Iran and to pan-Islam...and these ties are currently orders of magnitude stronger then any Turkish connection - even if Turkey has been doing everything in its power to increase its influence - including by piping exclusively Turkish satellite TV into these nations all while Turks watch American and European soapoperas, tv sitcoms and movies...lol...yeah ...you guys really do have lots in common...not (andd they know it...unlike some of you pan-Turan without a clue dreamers...)

Ofcourse this is a very long-termed investment and there is a great difference of analyzing the present situation and the ways of changing the situation. Personally I dont dream. I am pretty much aware the relations of Turkey with Turkic countries. Russia's influence is undeniable but perhaps in future we will become allies who knows? You refer to Islam and Iran. It is a complicated issue since Turkic countries whose religon was crushed under the yoke of communism is coming back pretty harshly where there are many extermists and I would not be surprised if they feel themselves closer to state of Iran in terms of lifestyle. For now... With time they will change.. Turkish sattelites are a first then international broadcasts should follow. There are many dimensions to strategy you see.... Turkic countries may not be ready in terms of open-mindness to American or European broadcasts, but they can take Turkish broadcasts right now eh? After one or two decades time will come for international broadcasts perhaps.... It is easy to spit on such ideas, to say "yeah sure!" to make fun of it, to ridicule it. Who would have thought we would make it to Anatolia? Who would have thought we would negotiate with EU?.... Think my friend, not only for now but for future....

[1.5 million]

Elendil - I was not refering to you as one of the delusional dreamers in this case. I have found your posts on this matter to be reasonable and worth consideration. I don't disageree with what you say - but I would caution any (Anatolian) Turk against thinking that we will be seeing any sort of Pan-Turan Empire any time soon or even to expect that Uighur cousins might be joining you for dinner or vice versa anytime soon. The situation is much more complicated...even if Turkey and Turks are fully elated with ideas of future Empire and complacent little Turks from all over the world bowing down to pictures of Kemal and such...not for a whole variety of reasons...and look at Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan and what they are dealing with (whack jobs running the place for one) - it will be quite sometime before anything viable comes out of those places...