Genocide information

[TurQ]

Sorry it should be Izmit a city about 70 miles east of Istanbul not Izmir.

Thats something unbelievable. We Turks would say the opposite. Yes military and administrative roles are important, but this does not mean that the others are looked down or thought degrading? Thats an extreme approach and not logical at all. Turks made 1/5 of the Ottoman population and they had to defend and manage the country, for example a compaign in the Balkans at least lasted 1 year in total for a soldier. These people have their families etc. How can they be able to do trade and and be successful in commmerce? In terms of time and practicality Turks in general, had not the chance. And only Turks and Muslims were mandatory to serve in the Army, it has changed in the last days but 99% of the Ottoman period, non Muslims were not forced to serve in the Army. Ittihat changed this in 1913.


For example when Ottomans get the island of Crete, they had difficulty to make the island economically vibrant.
It really became an issue, and finally they have settled 6 Jewish families that immigrated from Spain.
I can see no logic to think that proffessions related to commerce and trade be degraded and looked down. It could
just be the case that there were more important professions. And after all there were artists, crafters, among
both Armenians and Turks. There were Armenian beurocrats and as I have indicated before governors even ministers.

I think everything by Turks is approached with suspicion and negative. Armenians did prosper as merchants and
was part of Ottoman culture and state during Ottoman times. And the reason is just Turks hated these kind of professions
and they give these jobs to the hated Armenians? Is this what it means?

Yes ...

For example, in her book " States, Identities and Homogenisation", Heather Rae stated the following ..

"... This took place at the decline in Ottoman Empire, and made the Armenian community an object of resentment which fed a stereotype of the grasping and cunning Armenian. As with all stereotypes this view ignored the historical reality behind communal differences. The stereotype allowed resentful Ottomans to overlook the fact that trade and commerce had traditionally been looked down on by Ottomans, so these roles were fulfilled by Armenians, Greeks and other minorities. It also overlooked the fact that for most Armenian pesants (as for other pesants) life was increasingly difficult during the nineteenth century as the Empire disintegrated and repression grew." page 141

As for prestigious professions that was controlled by Turks Stanfor Shaw stated in his book "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey: Volum II" the following:

"Government service remained mainly a Muslim monopoly, with 95.4 percent of the positions being held by Muslims and only 4.6 percent by members of the minorities" . page 242

And how come local police in Izmir were almost all Armenians ??? Why, how many Armenians were there in Izmir ??

[Reincarnated Am]

My grandfather use to say “if Turks could find a Turk or a Muslim even much less educated then an Armenian or any Christian in Ottoman empire they would for sure replace them and give their positions to them, first priority to a Turk, second, any non Turk Muslims”
As you see Armenians were not given high positions because Turks loved us, Turks are opportunists they used us when we were needed, and discard us once they were done with us.

[Casper]

Degradation? To give them the opportunity be rich? Yes certain ethnic groups focused on certain type of jobs, I am wondering how could those be considered as degradation...

We Armenians were always the Goldsmiths of the empire.

[imported_RUDO]

Were most of the Armenians in Ottoman peasant?Or were they traders?(I wonder)For example my grand parents say that they were very hard working peasants.And my family lived in a deserted Armenian village.

[imported_RUDO]

Now our village was at once armenians' village. And there was a church of them.

[TurQ]

Yes, Armenians known to be skillful goldsmiths. Van was used to be one of the centers of goldsmiths they say, and silver work.
Turks are also very skillfull. We have gold stock market, and export gold to Europe and US a lot.

We Armenians were always the Goldsmiths of the empire.

[TurQ]

RA,

I was talking about the general OTtoman period. What you say is after 1878.

And again how would you explain an Armenian being the minister of Treasury and be the right hand of Abdulhamid Khan? That minister defended Ottomans in diplomatic relations as well.

My grandfather use to say “if Turks could find a Turk or a Muslim even much less educated then an Armenian or any Christian in Ottoman empire they would for sure replace them and give their positions to them, first priority to a Turk, second, any non Turk Muslims”
As you see Armenians were not given high positions because Turks loved us, Turks are opportunists they used us when we were needed, and discard us once they were done with us.

[maral_m79]

Were most of the Armenians in Ottoman peasant?Or were they traders?(I wonder)For example my grand parents say that they were very hard working peasants.And my family lived in a deserted Armenian village.

Except for a small persentage who used to live in the main cities and the capital ( who were Bankers, Jewelers, architects, poets, doctors and merchants...etc.), the vast majority of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire were peasant, and laborers.

by the way, in which province would that village be ?

[maral_m79]

Thats something unbelievable. We Turks would say the opposite. Yes military and administrative roles are important, but this does not mean that the others are looked down or thought degrading? Thats an extreme approach and not logical at all. Turks made 1/5 of the Ottoman population and they had to defend and manage the country, for example a compaign in the Balkans at least lasted 1 year in total for a soldier. These people have their families etc. How can they be able to do trade and and be successful in commmerce? In terms of time and practicality Turks in general, had not the chance. And only Turks and Muslims were mandatory to serve in the Army, it has changed in the last days but 99% of the Ottoman period, non Muslims were not forced to serve in the Army. Ittihat changed this in 1913.

It seems that you have a very little knowlege about that era ! Or you are intentionally trying to make things look like what they are not.

All the non-Muslim subjects ( raia ) of the Ottoman Empire were denied the right to bare arms. In the Istanbul Conference of 1876, the European powers proposed many suggestions to improve the quality of life of the non-Muslim subjects of the Ottoman Empire, one of those was that the Christiansbe permitted to possess arms as part of the Sultan's 1856 Treaty engagemnts... But Ottoman Turks rejected that suggestion in one of the conference sittings, after consulting the Ulema, the Islamic Law professors, Sheyulislam, their head, issued a "Fetva", declaring such possession of arms by non-Muslim subjects a violation of the Islamic Sacred Law (Sharia).
Therefore the non-Muslim subjects, were deprived from having a role in serving in the military ....

There were Armenian beurocrats and as I have indicated before governors even ministers.

I would appreciate it if you name their names, posts and period of serving in that post ..

I think everything by Turks is approached with suspicion and negative. Armenians did prosper as merchants and was part of Ottoman culture and state during Ottoman times. And the reason is just Turks hated these kind of professions and they give these jobs to the hated Armenians? Is this what it means?

No, it means that Non-Muslims were treated as second class (maybe worse) citizins, and there are plenty of examples of those those mistreatments .... You might say it can be normal for majority and minority to have such a relation ... I'll tell you that it was not normal, because in the Rose Bower Treaty of 1839 , the Sultan had promised equality of ALL his subjects !!!

But after all who can trust the Sultan !!!

Anyway, the quotes above, wasn't something that I had said, nor ANY Armenian, for that matters ... It was a research by a non Armenian scholar, and the second one is by a pro-Turkish writer ( I thought you would recognize Stanfor Shaw !)

[maral_m79]

And again how would you explain an Armenian being the minister of Treasury and be the right hand of Abdulhamid Khan? That minister defended Ottomans in diplomatic relations as well.

I would like to know the names of these people please ....
Oh an by the way, even if any Armenian had any important post in the Ottoman administrative system, that doesn't mean that they were granting him a grace .. that would make him very very very good at what he was doing, so he managed to be better than few other Turkish candidates to the same post! Or maybe the Sultan just like him!

By the way, did you know that AbulHamid's mother believed to be an Armenian of the Harem ?? And Abdul Hamid II had tried his entire life to wip out that "Staine"!!

And I see you keep repeating the word "Khan" after his name, Why ? What did he conquer ? I believe it means "conquerer", to be named after Jingez Khan , right ?