Genocide information

[TurQ]

ALl you are talking about is late 19th century,
I wasnt talking about the late period.
Armenians were NOT second class citizens before mid-1800s. And it was not late 19th century that their situation worsened.
At those times nobody had any good situation at all, the European powers or Empriealist powers wanted to disintegrate Ottomans with those treaties thats it. DO you think they gathered around a table and wanted to improve the quality of life? Why didnt they do the same for Turks or other Muslims?

Yes I did say it why do you reiterate I dont know, yes non muslims were not in the army. Did I say something different? Only Ittihadist government changed this.

those event in 1839 and in 1870s are just to improve the situation that was ALREADY detoriated. THis wasnt the case in 18th century or 17th or before. It is pretty much simplistic to think that these treaties were signed just because everything was bad before that all the time? We are talking about a state that's collapsing, and Armenians were part of it, and their situation detoriated as well as others. SO you say Turks and Muslims were OK economically those times?
I think there is a bit of confusion here on your side, you accuse Turks behaving Armenians as Second class citizens, All the time every time and also accuse Turks of forcing Armenians to be Merchants and Traders(which make them rich). I dont know what kind of second class is that. And now you say majority of the Armenians were peasants. These are pretty much contradicting. I dont know how can Armenian only be a peasant in Istanbul, or in Izmit, or Eskisehir.

So in short you are saying Armenians were Second class or Worse before 1839 way back to 1299 when Ottomans first founded? And Finally this mistake was being revered by the treaties and laws in 19th century? IS this what you say briefly? And Armenians did resented to live under Ottoman rule or Seljuki rule all the time every time?

It seems that you have a very little knowlege about that era ! Or you are intentionally trying to make things look like what they are not.

All the non-Muslim subjects ( raia ) of the Ottoman Empire were denied the right to bare arms. In the Istanbul Conference of 1876, the European powers proposed many suggestions to improve the quality of life of the non-Muslim subjects of the Ottoman Empire, one of those was that the Christiansbe permitted to possess arms as part of the Sultan's 1856 Treaty engagemnts... But Ottoman Turks rejected that suggestion in one of the conference sittings, after consulting the Ulema, the Islamic Law professors, Sheyulislam, their head, issued a "Fetva", declaring such possession of arms by non-Muslim subjects a violation of the Islamic Sacred Law (Sharia).
Therefore the non-Muslim subjects, were deprived from having a role in serving in the military ....






I would appreciate it if you name their names, posts and period of serving in that post ..



No, it means that Non-Muslims were treated as second class (maybe worse) citizins, and there are plenty of examples of those those mistreatments .... You might say it can be normal for majority and minority to have such a relation ... I'll tell you that it was not normal, because in the Rose Bower Treaty of 1839 , the Sultan had promised equality of ALL his subjects !!!

But after all who can trust the Sultan !!!

Anyway, the quotes above, wasn't something that I had said, nor ANY Armenian, for that matters ... It was a research by a non Armenian scholar, and the second one is by a pro-Turkish writer ( I thought you would recognize Stanfor Shaw !)

[TurQ]

I will find out for you those names.

Meral just be reasonable OK? You are saying Armenians were not even considered as Humans by Turks, just think for a while how could that person even come close to Palace if that were the case. Just be reasonable for a sec and think how he could become even a candidate? So you would think that a Jew could be a candidate in Germany for a ministery position in history? Would you expect a black be a minister in 19th century in US? Would you expect an African be a candidate in France? Or an Indian be candidate in Brit. Empire?

I didnt know about Sultan Hamid's mother being Armenian, but it is common to see non-Muslim Mothers of Sultans. As far as I know Fatih Sultan Mehmet's mother is Goergian. Sultan Orhan married with a Greek. They were not forced to become Muslims, some remained Christians by their will.

I would like to know the names of these people please ....
Oh an by the way, even if any Armenian had any important post in the Ottoman administrative system, that doesn't mean that they were granting him a grace .. that would make him very very very good at what he was doing, so he managed to be better than few other Turkish candidates to the same post! Or maybe the Sultan just like him!

By the way, did you know that AbulHamid's mother believed to be an Armenian of the Harem ?? And Abdul Hamid II had tried his entire life to wip out that "Staine"!!

And I see you keep repeating the word "Khan" after his name, Why ? What did he conquer ? I believe it means "conquerer", to be named after Jingez Khan , right ?

[maral_m79]

ALl you are talking about is late 19th century,
I wasnt talking about the late period.
Armenians were NOT second class citizens before mid-1800s. And it was not late 19th century that their situation worsened.
At those times nobody had any good situation at all, the European powers or Empriealist powers wanted to disintegrate Ottomans with those treaties thats it. DO you think they gathered around a table and wanted to improve the quality of life? Why didnt they do the same for Turks or other Muslims?

Yes I did say it why do you reiterate I dont know, yes non muslims were not in the army. Did I say something different? Only Ittihadist government changed this.

those event in 1839 and in 1870s are just to improve the situation that was ALREADY detoriated. THis wasnt the case in 18th century or 17th or before. It is pretty much simplistic to think that these treaties were signed just because everything was bad before that all the time? We are talking about a state that's collapsing, and Armenians were part of it, and their situation detoriated as well as others. SO you say Turks and Muslims were OK economically those times?
I think there is a bit of confusion here on your side, you accuse Turks behaving Armenians as Second class citizens, All the time every time and also accuse Turks of forcing Armenians to be Merchants and Traders(which make them rich). I dont know what kind of second class is that. And now you say majority of the Armenians were peasants. These are pretty much contradicting. I dont know how can Armenian only be a merchant in Istanbul, or in Izmit, or Eskisehir.

So in short you are saying Armenians were Second class or Worse before 1839 way back to 1299 when Ottomans first founded? And Finally this mistake was being revered by the treaties and laws in 19th century? IS this what you say briefly? And Armenians did resented to live under Ottoman rule or Seljuki rule all the time every time?

No, that's not what I was saying ... I was saying that the non-muslims were second class citizins practically, but equal to muslims on papers.

No, vast majority of the muslims didn't have a luxurious lives, and the Ottoman Empire was so much in debt that it declared bankrupcy in 1800s. That's why they tried to be friendly with the European powers.

Yes, The vast majority of Armenians were peasants and lived in a very difficult cirumstances in the Armenian Villayets.

Yes, you didn't say that the non-muslims join the army. But you said

non Muslims were not forced to serve in the Army

like it was a special kind of treatment, or privilige to the non-muslims.

And Armenians did resented to live under Ottoman rule or Seljuki rule all the time every time?

I am sure that they did ... almost all sources say that they did, I'll try to find you the references asap.

[maral_m79]

TurQ,

I promised you references, and there are very few sources in english about that period in details, so I managed to find you this book titled The Turco-Mongol Invasions and the Lords of Armenia in the 13-14th Centuries, it might help you understand what I was talking about, and how bad life was for the Armenians...

One of the examples, is the following: (Please note that the numbers between brackets are either references of page numbers).

"[120] The severity of the taxes and the brutal manner of their collection triggered an abortive uprising of the naxarar/didebuls in 1248/49. This rebellion, which was discovered by the Mongols while still in the planning stages was crushed at the expense of human and animal lives and crops in numerous districts of northeastern Armenia and southern Georgia. Some of the arrested Armenian and Georgian conspirators, unable to raise the huge ransoms demanded for their release, were tortured or killed (194). But the main [123] causes of the unrest remained unaddressed by the Mongols.

After the accession of the Great Khan Mongke (1251-39) a thorough census was made of all parts of the empire during 1252-57 (195). The Iranian emir Arghun personally conducted the census of Caucasia in 1254. Although the study made by Arghun has not survived, modern scholars estimate the Armenian population of Greater Armenia (excluding Cilicia) to have been about 4 million in the mid-13th century (196). The thoroughness of Arghun's work boded ill for Armenian laborers. Kirakos Ganjakec'i [124] described it as follows:

"[Census-takers] also reached the lands of Armenia, Georgia, Aghbania, and the districts around them, and began recording all those from 11 years and up, excepting the women. And they demanded the most severe taxes, more than a man could bear. And people became impoverished. They harassed the people with unbelievable beatings, torments, and tortures. Those who hid were seized and killed. Those who were unable to pay the rate had their children taken to pay their debt, for [the census-takers] circulated around with Persian Muslim attendants.. all the artisans, whether in the cities or in villages were taxed. Furthermore, fishermen of the seas and lakes, miners and blacksmiths and painters/plasterers [were taxed] ... And they alone [i.e., the Mongols] profitted. They took all the salt mines in Koghb and in other regions. Arghun similarly profitted greatly from the merchants and heaped up vast quantities of gold, silver, and precious stones. Thus everything became expensive and the lands became filled with lamentation and complaints. Then he left in charge of the lands a wicked governor (ostikan) who demanded the same amount every year by list, and in writing" (197).

Another administrative change occurred regarding Armenia in the mid-13th century. This was the establishment of the Il-Khanid Mongol state over the territory of Iran, and the inclusion of Caucasia into it, beginning in 1256. Prior to that time the Caucasus had formed a single administrative unit composed of five yilayets. Of these five, the first two were areas of Armenian population, namely 1) the Gurjistani (Georgian) vilayet, and 2) the vilayet of Greater Armenia. The Gurjistani vilayet consisted of eight tumans or districts each capable of providing 10,000 soldiers. Three of the eight tumans in the first vilayet were Armenian and included Ani, Kars, northeasternmost Armenia, Siwnik' and Arc'ax. The second vilayet, that of Greater Armenia, embraced some of the quasi-independent Armenian principalities, such as the Mamikonean/T'orhnikeans of Sasun and the Arcrunid Xedenekeans of Vaspurakan. The center of this vilayet was Karin/Erzerum (198). "


From this page of the book above.

[TurQ]

Maral

First of all the Mongols are not Turks, and the Mongols that you talk about
(I assume Jengiz and Hulagu) were the worst enemies of Turks and Muslims themselves. They destroyed Turkish khanates in Central Asia, middle east and Anatolia. This just shows that Turks and Armenians were victims of the same aggressor.

Secondly, I didnt say Armenians and Turks never ever fought before. Majority of the wars that time were not ethnically oriented as you are trying to make analogy to wars in 19th century. We didnt have any problem Byzantines being Greek so on.

As a recap what I did say was Armenians in Seljuki State and Armenians in Ottoman state in general had no problems and were happy to be part of those societies. They had better life and opportunities compared to their christian brothers in Caucusia and Russia.

During early 15th century for example, when Ottoman state suffered great from Timur's attacks, the Armenians supported Ottoman state to remain unified while some Turkish beyliks tend to seperate from Ottomans.

TurQ,

I promised you references, and there are very few sources in english about that period in details, so I managed to find you this book titled The Turco-Mongol Invasions and the Lords of Armenia in the 13-14th Centuries, it might help you understand what I was talking about, and how bad life was for the Armenians...

One of the examples, is the following: (Please note that the numbers between brackets are either references of page numbers).

"[120] The severity of the taxes and the brutal manner of their collection triggered an abortive uprising of the naxarar/didebuls in 1248/49. This rebellion, which was discovered by the Mongols while still in the planning stages was crushed at the expense of human and animal lives and crops in numerous districts of northeastern Armenia and southern Georgia. Some of the arrested Armenian and Georgian conspirators, unable to raise the huge ransoms demanded for their release, were tortured or killed (194). But the main [123] causes of the unrest remained unaddressed by the Mongols.

After the accession of the Great Khan Mongke (1251-39) a thorough census was made of all parts of the empire during 1252-57 (195). The Iranian emir Arghun personally conducted the census of Caucasia in 1254. Although the study made by Arghun has not survived, modern scholars estimate the Armenian population of Greater Armenia (excluding Cilicia) to have been about 4 million in the mid-13th century (196). The thoroughness of Arghun's work boded ill for Armenian laborers. Kirakos Ganjakec'i [124] described it as follows:

"[Census-takers] also reached the lands of Armenia, Georgia, Aghbania, and the districts around them, and began recording all those from 11 years and up, excepting the women. And they demanded the most severe taxes, more than a man could bear. And people became impoverished. They harassed the people with unbelievable beatings, torments, and tortures. Those who hid were seized and killed. Those who were unable to pay the rate had their children taken to pay their debt, for [the census-takers] circulated around with Persian Muslim attendants.. all the artisans, whether in the cities or in villages were taxed. Furthermore, fishermen of the seas and lakes, miners and blacksmiths and painters/plasterers [were taxed] ... And they alone [i.e., the Mongols] profitted. They took all the salt mines in Koghb and in other regions. Arghun similarly profitted greatly from the merchants and heaped up vast quantities of gold, silver, and precious stones. Thus everything became expensive and the lands became filled with lamentation and complaints. Then he left in charge of the lands a wicked governor (ostikan) who demanded the same amount every year by list, and in writing" (197).

Another administrative change occurred regarding Armenia in the mid-13th century. This was the establishment of the Il-Khanid Mongol state over the territory of Iran, and the inclusion of Caucasia into it, beginning in 1256. Prior to that time the Caucasus had formed a single administrative unit composed of five yilayets. Of these five, the first two were areas of Armenian population, namely 1) the Gurjistani (Georgian) vilayet, and 2) the vilayet of Greater Armenia. The Gurjistani vilayet consisted of eight tumans or districts each capable of providing 10,000 soldiers. Three of the eight tumans in the first vilayet were Armenian and included Ani, Kars, northeasternmost Armenia, Siwnik' and Arc'ax. The second vilayet, that of Greater Armenia, embraced some of the quasi-independent Armenian principalities, such as the Mamikonean/T'orhnikeans of Sasun and the Arcrunid Xedenekeans of Vaspurakan. The center of this vilayet was Karin/Erzerum (198). "


From this page of the book above.

[TurQ]

Thanks a lot by the way, I am always glad to read scholarly written articles, and PHD thesis are best and less contraversial majority of the time.

Thanks again Deer Maral


[QUOTE=maral_m79]TurQ,

I promised you references, and there are very few sources in english about that period in details, so I managed to find you this book titled The Turco-Mongol Invasions and the Lords of Armenia in the 13-14th Centuries, it might help you understand what I was talking about, and how bad life was for the Armenians...

[maral_m79]

Thanks a lot by the way, I am always glad to read scholarly written articles, and PHD thesis are best and less contraversial majority of the time.

Thanks again Deer Maral

Don't mention it, I hope it would help